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a woman is always to blame dozens of upvotes evil women facepalm grandiosity imaginary oppression literal nazis matriarchy men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA oppressed men playing the victim reddit shit that never happened straw feminists whaaaaa? woman's suffrage

Men’s Rights Redditor: “By giving women the right to vote without being subject to conscription, feminism has brought on wars, killing, concentration camps, starvations and endless cruelties.”

Evil women voting for starvation.
Evil womens voting for starvations.

So over on the Men’s Rights subreddit, the regulars are engaging in a bit of self-reflection. Well, that may be a bit of a generous description on my part. They’re discussing the question “Are we fanatics?” Not surprisingly, they conclude that they aren’t.

Yet this is the most upvoted comment in the thread:

linearthink

Those of you who have studied twentieth century history may have remembered Lady Hitler’s war on the Jews, the Romani people, and homosexuals; the Great Feminist Purges of Lady Stalin; the Cultural Revolution of Lady Mao. (Oh, wait, there actually was a Madame Mao, and she was a pretty evil gal, though she owed her power largely to her husband and was ousted shortly after his death.)

Moving on from all that war and starvation stuff, let’s return to that first sentence, since MRAs are so fond of blaming eeevil feminists for the draft.

The link in that sentence goes to a discussion of an organization called The Order of the White Feather. Take it away, Wikipedia:

In August 1914, at the start of the First World War, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather with support from the prominent author Mrs Humphrey Ward. The organization aimed to shame men into enlisting in the British Army by persuading women to present them with a white feather if they were not wearing a uniform.

It’s worth pointing out that at the start of WWI, people of all political stripes and in all the countries involved were pretty gung-ho for the war. Even the big socialist parties of the day quickly forgot their pledges of international solidarity in favor of supporting their national war efforts.

So where do the evil feminists come in? Well, a couple of the most famous British suffragettes signed onto the White Feather crusade:  Emmeline and Christabel Pankhurst. And yes, they supported compulsory national service — though they supported it for both men and women: men would go to war, while women would be required to work in factories.

Of course, the Order of the White Feather didn’t represent all feminists at the time. Indeed, it didn’t even represent all the Pankhursts: Christabel’s sisters Sylvia and Adela were pacifists.

Even aside from all that blather about feminists being responsible for wars and concentration camps, it’s highly misleading to present the story of the Order of the White Feather as “proof” that feminists are warmongering all-male-draft-lovers. As a quick visit to Google will demonstrate, feminism has a long history of antiwar activism, dating back to the 19th century — when feminists first organized Mother’s Day as a protest of war.

But, hey, MRAs, if you want to invent your own mythological version of history, knock yourself out. You only make yourselves look like the fanatics you are.

Thanks to this thread in the AgainstMensRights Subreddit for pointing me to this most edifying discussion.

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Kim
Kim
8 years ago

OT but my bf just toid me some amusing news. A shick jock here in Australia was fired today after gender policing and misogyning in an interview with the PM.

http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/australian-shock-jock-fired-gillard-gay-questioning-5464240

Apparantly to him being candid = being an arsehat.

marcilannister
marcilannister
8 years ago

Why is it that people who hold really repugnant viewpoints always want to try to point to historical figures that had been associated with their opponents “team?” We are not arguing against MRAs from the past and their viewpoints (if there were indeed MRAs in long lost history?). We are arguing with ideas and points that your people make right now, so why do you want to waste time and effort arguing with feminists of the past? I am interested in what people seem to believe in right now, people who are actually alive and can have an effect on my life.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

Help us fight to create a social safety net that ensures that no child is hungry, no child has to live on the streets, every child can afford warm coats and boots and everything else they need to live and I will be so down with you opting out of parenthood, snore.* I’ll even throw you a little “Congratulations! You will neither meet nor financially support your biological offspring!” party.

*Bonus: women who access this safety net for their children, particularly women of colour, are not shamed for it the way that they are shamed for using the woefully inadequate welfare systems in the States and here.

Falconer
8 years ago

Re: Decora —

Oh Japan, keep telling your young women they’re just not cute enough. In the annals of misogyny, it’s certainly … unique.

daintydougal
daintydougal
8 years ago

Is it also entangled in the right wing view that money is more important than people? So raising a child is less strenuous than writing a cheque. Pregnancy and childbirth and abortion are equivalent to signing a bit of paper saying you don’t really fancy having a child. I just can’t get my head around it. It’s disingenuous at best.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

@daintydougal:

So raising a child is less strenuous than writing a cheque. Pregnancy and childbirth and abortion are equivalent to signing a bit of paper saying you don’t really fancy having a child.

I think it depends who is writing cheques or raising children? It would probably be a lot harder for men to go through pregnancy and childbirth and child-rearing than it would be to sign a piece of paper, but women? Having babies and then raising them is, like, what we exist for. (This is sarcasm, if that wasn’t obvious.)

I think this is all connected to a perception of motherhood as obligatory and fatherhood as optional. Requiring men to do anything to support their children, even something as minimal as supporting them financially, is looked at as unfair because it should be a choice for them. And if they make choices that make life impossible for the mother, then… who cares? It is her responsibility to make do. And if they make choices that make life impossible for the children, well, that’s probably a failure of motherhood too, since it’s her job to take care of her kids.

daintydougal
daintydougal
8 years ago

I just cannot fathom how anyone can genuinely suggest that the lifelong implications of childbirth/abortion are in anyway comparable to losing a fraction of your income for 18 years – to support something you helped create in the first place!

Traditionally only women were punished for having sex. We desperately need to get back to those glorious times.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Yeah, the paper abortions thing is primarily–shocker!–about power.

More power to men, specifically.

Yeah, if we had a society where supporting children was a societal obligation, not an individual obligation, that would be fine. But what a paper abortion would do is absolutely gut the existing child support system in this country. GUT IT.

And it barely works as it is!

So, no.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Also, Amanda’s article is going to be a complete shitstorm all weekend. I don’t even dare get into the comments. She’s basically done a ‘well, okay, let’s give it to them, then.’ To demonstrate that they’re not arguing in good faith.

And, boy, the comments…

anadiomene122
anadiomene122
8 years ago

@daintydougal Someone forgot to tell Professor Singh about paternal age effect, decline in male fertility starting at about 30, and the fact that impotence is a serious issue for men over 50 (ask the manufacturers of Viagra, they sell that shit like little blue hotcakes)…

When I first heard that there was a “men’s rights movement” (years ago, now), I thought to myself, “Huh… oh I get it, there’s a group of men who are pushing for reliable male birth control, destigmatization of male rape/abuse victims, and who are anti-war and anti-draft. Good on ’em!”

Then I googled “men’s rights” and landed on the Roissy blog and…

daintydougal
daintydougal
8 years ago

@anadiomene122

No one care about your pseudo-science. Women go through menopause for having the audacity to age and therefore displease certain boners, That is one of the highest crimes imaginable. Men stay fertile forever because of science. FACT.

Thats whats so insidious about the ‘mens rights’ movement, that there are of course many issues that specifically affect men, but the mrm are interested in none of them!

cloudiah
8 years ago

Once we finish our history textbook, I think we need to write a science textbook.

Marie
8 years ago

Hi manboobz people 😀 Finally back from taking a break. So…hello! 😀 *goes back to read comments*

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

*Waves to Marie* missed ya.

Marie
8 years ago

@Viscaria

*Waves back* 😀

Marie
8 years ago

@Cloudiah

THE BALLERINA IS THE STAMEN OF PRIVILEGE.

XD holy shit so glad I wasn’t drinking anything XD … I wonder if this would’ve made more sense if I hadn’t been skimming.

::will be back, gonna to go hang out w/ family::

BUT I WILL BE BACK MUCH SOONER THIS TIME, I PROMISES!!!!ELEVEN

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago

Menopause caused by mens completely unalterable attraction to sixteen year olds…sounds legit!/end snark.

Um…50 years of age is the average onset of menopause and well, imma guess that 50 was a good long life for huge segments of the human population for a significant time period. And why is it that baby making is the pre eminent problem to aging? How many people suffer physical impairments or discomfort after years of hard work, stress or whatever? Shouldn’t we really focus on making what is now middle age one where people aren’t suffering damaged backs, arthritis or heart problems?

Nope, definately a womans baby making capacity and her wrinkles and sagginess is what’s really the problem.

Marie
8 years ago

@pillowinhell

Menopause caused by mens completely unalterable attraction to sixteen year olds…sounds legit!/end snark.

O_o something tells me I missed a really weird troll.

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago

Marie, as near as I can tell, mens predillection for young mates is a dog whistle for “get a girl just as she hits puberty”. I’m being generous by citing sixteen as the age.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

Also, Amanda’s article is going to be a complete shitstorm all weekend. I don’t even dare get into the comments. She’s basically done a ‘well, okay, let’s give it to them, then.’ To demonstrate that they’re not arguing in good faith.

Marcotte really hit the ball out of the park with that one. She’s absolutely right, those “paper abortion” douchebags want the benefits of parenthood without the responsibilities. Otherwise, they should gladly agree to stay away from the mother and child after getting the paper abortion. Instead, they want to disappear when the children are small and need money and care, but then reappear when they grow up. I’ve seen that happen so many times, and it’s so sad.

And you’re right, the comment section is a shitstorm. The pandagon regulars are making good comments, while some whiny MRA’s are there to say how unfair her plan is. Waaaaaahh, child support is slavery! Waaaah, the term deadbeat dad is sexist!

And there is no way in hell those guys would be on board for building a stronger safety net for single mothers and children. They whine “I don’t want my tax money paying for some sluts’ mistakes!” So which option is it, MRA’s? Do you want deadbeat dads to contribute financially for their own children, or do you want to pay higher taxes to ensure that children can have a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs? Because telling children to go without the basic necessities is not an option.

Those “paper abortion” guys make me want to throw up. It does make me realize how lucky I am to have such a great father, though. He always put my brother and my needs first, unlike those selfish pieces of dog poo.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Yeah, the whole ”younger the better’ creep-fest is… well, shades of Tom Martin, Owly, every damn MRA who comes in the door….

(and, Marie! Welcome back!)

Marie
8 years ago

) Do manginas tingle for alpha females?

And other deep reflections on the universe, by anadiomene.

@chie

THIS!! My state passed THREE anti-abortion bills today, including a transvaginal probe requirement.

>:( Which state? (if you don’t mind saying.)

@pillowinhell

Marie, as near as I can tell, mens predillection for young mates is a dog whistle for “get a girl just as she hits puberty”. I’m being generous by citing sixteen as the age.

🙁 gah. Clearly been skimming the trolls too much, cuz I missed most of the ickiness.

@Howard Bannister

😀 Glad to be back.

emilygoddess
8 years ago

@bionicmommy

I thought wars were caused by complicated geopolitical alliances along with competition for limited land and resources.

Land and resources that could be used to make bonbons and scented candles, if we could only coerce men into getting them for us.

@Ostara

Trying to cite women’s suffrage as the beginning of a bunch of wars and horrors because women got the right to vote, implies that women were voting to go to war. Which is not only stupid, but demonstrative of a willful ignorance of how shit actually happens.

I think this argument stems from the claim that women voters “cancel out” men’s votes and/or women are the ones voting for [candidate/party we don’t like]. Which still doesn’t explain how women made Lincoln conscript all those soldiers in the Civil War, but I’m sure Mary made him do it.

@Joe

This willingness to “throw others under the bus” is a characteristic of all successful politicians, (and it applies to feminist politicians as much as any other) most of whom will never have to run the risk of being killed in war. So they tend to be pretty gung-ho about starting them (e.g. Blair, Bush)

There is a lot to be said for the idea that once the executive has called for war – that there should be a vote, with only those who will fight and risk their lives getting to vote on whether a war should go ahead (e.g. as in early Rome). It would probably cut down on a lot of corporate-backed slaughter. Of course, that’s why it’ll never be permitted by the ruling class.

I actually don’t disagree with any of this. But then you veer back into attacking your own straw version of feminism, and I feel a little dirty for having agreed with you about anything.

@BritterSweet I know you were doing an MRA voice for your Little Bighorn bit, but using slurs ironically is still using slurs (or so I’ve heard from the PoC who’ve talked to me about it). Would you mind not using that “I” word in the future?

@Joe again

“Feminists at least acknowledge some of the shortcomings of feminism’s past.”

Not in my experience they don’t.

We do it here, all the time. It’s like you don’t even go here.

SandinaFem
SandinaFem
8 years ago

Thanks for posting this, David.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

We do it here, all the time. It’s like you don’t even go here.

Well, to be fair, he doesn’t come here to read.

thekidwiththereplaceablehead

Actual pix of Lady Hitler, Lady Stalin, etc.
There’s… a lot of panty shots in MRAhistory books.

http://tinyurl.com/cpjbu68

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

The Viking raids according to MRA’s

In the 800’s, life in jolly old England was great for men. The women were submissive, they were good cooks, and they understood that men and women had complimentary roles. But all good things must come to an end, and for them, it ended when ship loads of alpha assholes from Scandinavia arrived.

The English women swooned for the Vikings, because they looked like Brad Pitt. The women jumped on the Viking cock carousel immediately, and bragged, “Look at us, sleeping with these alphas! From now, we will friendzone all English men. Grrrrl power!” Then they got on the Viking ships, and said “Take us to Denmark! Man up and marry us, because we want babies!” But Vikings were alphas, and they would not man up and marry used up sluts in their 30’s.

The women ran back to the English men. “Why can’t I find nice guys like you?!” they cried. But the English men had wizened up and read The Spearhead, so they laughed at those women and said “I hope you enjoy being ALONE WITH YOUR CATS!” The Vikings went on to start up an NFL franchise in Minneapolis.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

But the English men had wizened up and read The Spearhead

Greatest typo ever. “Bitter old men, mad that they can’t force pretty, young women to be attracted to them” sums up so, so, sooo many MRA rants

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

Ha ha ha, oops! Well, my typo makes it more authentic anyway. 🙂

cloudiah
8 years ago

That is the greatest typo ever!

I’m totally going to turn these histories into a blog post, or maybe a whole series of blog posts. 😀

Athywren
Athywren
8 years ago

So… I think I’m done with looking for sparks of rationality in the MRM. Seriously, allowing women to vote and not forcing them into the military causes wars?
News flash, MRAs, the UK doesn’t force anybody into the military, not even mens! And yet, the public over here are generally not in favour of wars, not even the womens!!

Still, I’m happy to see girlwriteswhat in that thread. For a while I was under the impression that she was a rational person with some questionable views, but, no. Allowing the vote while not forcing military service is a moral hazard, a huge one no less. So I’m done with giving any of them the benefit of the doubt.

Dear MRAs,
Learn to rational.
Sincerely,
Me.

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

You know, I tried to think of a ‘legit’ variation on the argument for paper abortion. Instead of comparing it to abortion, I tried to compare it to safe-haven laws. But even then, the comparison fails because of how things play out–a woman is only ‘privileged’ in being able to abandon an infant at a safe haven if the bio-father is already out of the picture. If he’s aware of the kid, then he can either agree to the abandonment, or he can take custody and demand support payments from the mother, just as she could have demanded support payments from him.

So, yeah, still implodes, even after being a ‘better’ argument than the one about abortion.

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

American History

Queen Isabella of Spain told Cristopher Columbus to go to India to get her perfumes and dresses. She told him to go west because women are dumb and they don’t know geography. But even though Cristopher was abeta mangina willing to take orders from a woman, he was still a man and therefore stronger and smarter than women and so he found America.

Then, the PGTOWs (Puritans Going Their Own Way) decided to go to America to get away from the misandrist European women and teach them a lesson (Europe become dominated by feminist misandrists and that’s why America is so much better than Europe).

Later, the British women, angry that the PGTOWs had managed to evade their sexual power, made all the manginas around get guns and go to America to get revenge. They made them all wear red coats because they hate all men and wanted them to get shot at.

Of course George Washington defeated all the british manginas and everything was great until the feMRAs that had come with the PGTOWs screwed everything up, like women do, and then eventually they got the vote and now white straight men are persecuted in America.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

PGTOW

Love it! 😀

Brz
Brz
8 years ago

Fun facts : In the twenties, France almost granted voting rights to women and finally didn’t because of the opposition of senators of a leftist party (Parti radical) when, in the meantime, the Pope Benedict XV was openly supporting women’s suffrage.
Many leftists were afraid that women’s suffrage would renew the power of the church and that’s exactly what the Pope was aiming by supporting women’s voting rights.
When France finally granted voting rights to women in 1944, the cataclysm so many progressive men have feared for so long didn’t happen, the church didn’t regain the place it had in the French society before the revolution, it’s just that the communist party didn’t have the power it could have had if women weren’t allowed to vote. It’s finally what the influence of women’s suffrage had been during the 20th century, a barrier to communism, because women will always vote for security and stability and never for the revolution. Since 1944, every kind of political extremism has slowly disappeared, there is not anymore such thing as far right (they now advocate for securitarian hedonism : put a cop everywhere to protect the “right” to eat sausages and drink wine in some lounge club peacefully, i.e protected from the Muslims), the far left is now a bunch of early retired civil servants who fight for the small privileges the state has always given to public servants since WWII and, from time to time, organize a barbecue party to advocate for the regularization of illegal immigrants. Women’s suffrage killed political extremism, killed the violence, the meaning and the fun in politics.
Some Men wanted to make the revolution by fighting for women’s voting rights, women transformed society into an immense retirement home. Morality : women are always too boringly conservative, they’ll always spoil all the fun at some point, that’s why men tried to keep them in the kitchen : to prevent women from transforming the world into a woman’s kitchen.

Brz
Brz
8 years ago

I’m still under moderation because of the Femen video? Lol, you’re such puritans.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Yawn.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

Hi Marie!

emilygoddess
8 years ago

Brz, I dare you to make less sense.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Ah, but Brz’s hang-ups remain intact.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Brz is ALWAYS being an enormous asshole. FauxFrench variety, of course.

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

Oh wow Brz, I didn’t think you had it in you. That MRA faux-history is really good, nobody could really believe that unless their heads were firmly planted up their own asses.
Oh, right…

Brz
Brz
8 years ago

@David Futrelle
Yes, it was because I posted a video where one can see some Femen’s tits (and, incidentally, hear them shouting slogans)
http://manboobz.com/wtf-is-a-mgtow-a-glossary/comment-page-13/#comment-310295

I don’t think that I was an enormous asshole at this moment, or maybe I was, I still don’t understand clearly your definition of what constitutes assholery and what’s the difference between casual, benign assholery and enormous assholery.

God's Fool
God's Fool
8 years ago

BRZ, interesting perspective. I’m a man, but even if your theory about women being more moderate is correct, I would say this is a good thing and it’s actually a good reason why women should be able to vote. After all, wars are generally caused by lack of moderation. So do you want peace or not?

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

I don’t think that I was an enormous asshole at this moment, or maybe I was, I still don’t understand clearly your definition of what constitutes assholery and what’s the difference between casual, benign assholery and enormous assholery.

I am unsurprised. If you were cognizant of how enormous an asshole you are, you would spend the next five or six days crouched in a corner, rocking.

talacaris
8 years ago

I think I’ve heard something of a “grandmother theory” for menopause; that women would have more reproductive success by helping care for their grandchildren instead of going through more risky pregnancies.

Marie
8 years ago

Hi Marie!

Hi Kittehs! 😀

brz related, but should I even be bothering to read his comments? They all seem the same and he’s really boring.

Wow, my vow not to read didn’t last long as I saw this:

I still don’t understand clearly your definition of what constitutes assholery and what’s the difference between casual, benign assholery and enormous assholery.

Shorter brz: What’s the maximum amount of asshole I can be and get away with?

historophilia
historophilia
8 years ago

I’ve heard similar ideas about the “grandmother theory” as well. Women developed the menopause because older women are useful to have around as extra childcare and also as midwives/nurses/healers and also maintain and pass on knowledge about these things. They developed the menopause so they would stop having babies and be able to focus on these tasks.

But older men aren’t as useful for these purposes and tended to die earlier so there was no need a develop an equivalent to the menopause.

But like all speculation and theories about humanities ancient past we simply don’t know, so we can develop hypotheses but we will never know if they are actually true.

talacaris
8 years ago

“But older men aren’t as useful for these purposes and tended to die earlier so there was no need a develop an equivalent to the menopause”

Or maybe they were useful, but didn’t take health risks by being fertile.