Never let it be said that the men of the MGTOW movement don’t focus on the important issues of our time. For example, over on MGTOWforums, a fellow named Andrew brought up a critical danger faced by today’s men, a danger that the mainstream media is too cowardly to address.
I refer, of course, to the rising danger that an innocent, decent, hard-working, good-looking fellow like Andrew might be forced into a relationship with some ugly fat lady.
You scoff — I can sense your scoffing through the internet — but as Andrew points out, it VERY WELL COULD HAPPEN, by which I mean, no it couldn’t possibly happen, but the MGTOWers do love to get worked up about things, and who am I to rain on their little anger parade?
Here’s Andrew, from the thread “Ugly women forced upon us?? Dangerous precedent for men setting itself up.”
You can’t argue with that!
Seriously, arguing with Andrew would be a bit like debating an angry baby.
EDITED TO ADD: The picture at the top of the post is from a series done by the blogger The Militant Baker in response to statements from the CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch suggesting that its clothes were only for “cool, good-looking people” — a designation that evidently doesn’t include larger women, since the chain doesn’t offer XL and XXL sizes for women, just men. For more pics, and her open letter to the company, see here.
@ Karalora
There are a number of reasons for this; first and foremost it’s culture / fashion. People are very impressionable and tend to find attractive what their culture says is attractive and what is in fashion. Getting a mate that fits that fashion gives you status, which most people, especially men, want. So, there is a lot of anger against women who don’t fit the “high status” stereotype as it means there are less high status women to go around.
Secondly, people often interpret fatness as a sign of laziness / lack of discipline. Obviously these are not attractive traits.
Thirdly, there’s a theory that mant men are “ephebophiles”, e.g. find most attractive adolescent girls in their mid-to-late teens. These girls are usually quite thin, as they haven’t finished growing and their metabolisms are sky high.
So men subconsciously want adult women to be very thin so they more resemble adolescent girls, and get annoyed when they don’t.
Next, porn. Women in porn are usually unnaturally thin, and as men are so bombarded with these images, they internalise them as the ideal (same reason a whole generation of men is now repulsed by public hair).
Finally, it’s a class thing – used to be that being fat and pale was the ideal body shape, as it meant you were rich enough to afford a lot of food and of means enough not to have to do low-class manual labour outside.
Now, thin and tanned is the ideal, as it means you’re rich enough to be able to eat healthy, go to the gym etc and take foreign holidays.
Yup! Isn’t it a good thing I never said that? Let’s let individuals determine for themselves what they consider attractive and unattractive.
Then I suggest you work on your writing to make sure you’re clear, because the subtext of this:
…reads as “haha! He’s an asshole so he deverves to only get those ugly whales!”
Briznecko, there was nothing wrong with my comment and you are just being intentionally unpleasant. What is it you want, to censor everyone who says something that could possibly be (mis)interpreted in a way that might perhaps slightly damage your terribly delicate sensitivities? Grow up.
TheSambaNoodler,
It seems you’re terribly delicate to criticism yourself.
@TheSambaNoodler:
You, uh, don’t like being corrected much, do you?
Here’s an alternative version that works just as well!
“Oh yeah, that could be read as the subtext of what I was saying, but I didn’t quite mean it that way. Here’s a clarification: Namely so and so”.
May I suggest, and I do this kindly, that *you* calm down? Grow up? Be less sassy? q:
Oh Jesus, another FREEZE PEACHer.
Fibinachi, I didn’t like Briznecko’s tone as much as s/he didn’t like my comment. Why did s/he try saying “I know what you’re saying, but do you realise your comment could actually be interpreted as XXX”, rather than the rather unpleasant and aggressive tone s/he took? Works both ways you know.
Lovely reception for a newcomer though! Thanks so much.
Because your tone is kind of aggressive. Also, we mainly get newcomer trolls. A lot of new comer trolls. You’re welcome! Be welcomed! Someone more competent than I have a package of delightful stuff that they’ll fork you soon.
But until they do, maybe let off the coy attempts at guilt? Works both ways, you know (;
Yeah, Briznecko, don’t you know that intent is magic? /sarcasm
Am I the only one strongly reminded of Ruby?
My first comment wasn’t aggressive. Go look at it again. The first response I got however, was. My offending anyone with my initial comment was accidental, but don’t let that bother you in your ganging up and bullying someone who made an innocent mistake and then tried to defend themselves from attack. I’m sure you won’t.
No, your first comment wasn’t actually that aggressive. Also, it was pretty spot on.
I do notice you haven’t taken the chance to correct yourself though, viz a viz: “Oh yeah, I meant to infer that his inability to find the women he wants is due to him and his possibly awful personality, but I also didn’t quite mean to make it seem as if him “Losing” would be marked by him having to carry out the indignity of hooking up with someone fat, the horror”.
Close though. Obviously some people find them attractive, and they’re not bad people.
Long day at work? I’ve had one. We’re all stressed. How about a cup of tea, come back in 5? 🙂
Oh! If only I had sprinkled my tone with “Pretty plz? With sugar and cherries on top?”
What’s funny to me about the OP is Andrew’s presumption that women will totally want to marry guys who call them fat orcas and that that the only way to make amends after you’ve called a woman a fat orca is to marry her. Rather than, you know, apologize and stop calling people names.
Fibinachi, as I said I absolutely would have clarified that if s/he hadn’t taken such a nasty, aggressive tone. You can see what I meant and I’m sure most people could too, The exact point was that he CAN’T ATTRACT THE PEOPLE HE WANTS TO ATTRACT, and was not a judgement of fat, thin, black, white, purple or polka-dotted people. It was’t “that” aggressive? It wasn’t aggressive at all – except maybe to Andrew.
Briznecko – “Oh! If only I had employed some basic manners and courtesy!” – Fixed that for you 🙂
Estimated time to flounce?
… You’re not very nice, you know that SambaNoodler? You don’t have to be nice, that’s true, but you’re really not. Someone else will get you a welcome package. Until then:
Define “valuable”.
Your defintion seems to be: “As trophy objects of high status, thin women are better than fat women, and since women provide value by virtue of their use as trophies, thin women have more value in general”.
Hate to break it to you, that’s a moral judgement. No really! I guess technically, I would also accept “value judgement” or “Nominal declaration”. But it’s not a fact q:
The way you can tell it isn’t a fact is you have to qualify with “generally” there. Generally regarded as more attractive, so, in some cases, not. Ie: People doing the regarding make a judgement call on their own.
Also? Taller men?
… since when?
Also! Bonus! No one said everyone is regarded as equally attractive. Just that your joke could easily be interpreted as, well, indicating that Andrews defective personality leads him to less valuable mates, ie, all the fatties in the world. I get what you were trying to say (“If he can’t find a women that he likes, out of all the millions in the world, perhaps the problem isn’t quite the women…) but that is not what you said. And that’s a fact, not a moral judgement.
Moving on:
Everyone is a sheeple, yeah. Of course, getting a mate that fits the fashion gives you status, men want status, and since women are useful to men primarily as status-enabling mates, they get angry at the fat ones (because they’re worth less status).
… Heh. Okay:
Why do men, especially, want status?
Why is a fat person judged to have less of it than a thin person? (The answer isn’t below, as you write, a while ago it was different)
Why is thin women treated as a exploitable, non-renewable ressource?
Why are fat women treated as a pollutant?
Who decides who has status, the people in pairs, the people outside pairs, or some man behind the mirror, or all of us, at any given time?
If the concept of “status” is so nebolous and difficult to define that you have to speak in generalities like “Most” and “number of reasons” and “Less”, why would a fat or a thin person correlate to any sort of status in any other way than sheer, current accident?
Oh, I see – to answer myself: because the private thoughts of other people making their own judgements, in their own time, correlates to an entire society despite any evidence to the contrary
There’s also a theory that a sufficient layer of fat / muscle (“chub”) would help provide sustenance, insulation and metabolic capacity to any person undergoing childbirth. As a theory, it’s just as valid – since we can only compare opinions here. Also, if it’s only men who are ephebophiles, how come thin women and fat women have different status? What? 50 % of the population decide 100 % of the status change? The sexual desires of men and what they find attractive dictate fashion / culture, all of it, everywhere, because women have no say, as they are, at best, trophies?
Or is it just some snarky excuse to not like fat people. q:
Or they subconsciously want a hotdog and get mad when women are not hot dogs. They subconsciously want to go to Venus, and get mad, because our gravitonic contraints don’t allow it. The theory has no explanatory power, especially compared to the fact that you, yourself, mention that a while ago it was a “fat” and “Pale” that was the ideal body shape.
Ie:
Bio-malarky, not bio-truth.
Actually this is pretty true, and I agree. It’s also amusing to consider that pubic lice is dying out because of this trend. ALthough I am amused by the idea of “bombarded” with porn, as if planes flew over groupings of men and dumped pin ups on them in demographic pornographization campaigns.
(Oh, and also: Why do the tastes of half the population dictate the nature, fashion and value system of 100 % of the population?)
So things can change, it was different back then, but that doesn’t matter because I have some theories?
… Your theories boil down to “Women are trophies, and the thin ones give more points, so men get angry when they’re forced to deal with fewer points than their competitors”.
What about the rest of the *world*?
I mean, it seems a little slipshod to me.
@TheSambaNoodler
Sorry you have a blind spot here, but it seems like you have quite the hard time being criticized. And yes, your comment was worth criticism, even with your clarification.
Regulars criticize each other all the time here for similar comment (it’s happened to me a gazillion times). I notice a trend though, people saying “sorry, my bad, I’ll think about it”. This might be too difficult for you right now, but I suggest you try and meditate on it. I’m sure you’re a magical flawless person, but you may find something.
I have to get back to work, but I hope the meltdown’s enjoyable.
You begin a comment with a direct personal attack and then seriously expect me to take the time to read the rest of it?
WTF?
I came here completely well intentioned hoping to have some interesting discussion with intelligent and open-minded people. After being attacked and insulted for making A MISTAKE, I’m leaving and I’m sure you’ll all be very happy and smug that you managed to bully me out of here.
No really, well done. Obviously winning all the niceness prizes yourself.
“Nice:
showing or indicating very small differences; minutely accurate, as instruments: a job that requires nice measurements.”
=
You are not very accurate.
Have a good day.
…You realize that this is a classic tone argument, right? And as such, it’s rather useless? We can’t know what you might have done, had someone else done something differently, so it’s irrelevant. What we have to go on is how you reacted. To what actually appears to be some relatively mild criticism. Telling someone that something isn’t cool isn’t being “nasty”, it’s being blunt.
I am not a mindreader.
But, goddam, your lies are TRANSPARENT.
A bunch of things:
1) laserqueen, my sympathies! I hope your divorce goes as smoothly as possible!
2) I filled in some more info about the pic I used in the post. It’s from the blogger The Militant Baker and is part of a response to some stuff the CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch said.
3) I don’t think that Andrew in the OP is a Poe. I mean, he could be, but his rhetoric is not acutally out of place for the MGTOWforums at all. They talk like this all the time. And certainly he was accepted as genuine by the others.
4) I think a lot of the “oh no I would never date a fattie!” stuff comes from peer pressure. Guys who are attracted to fat women feel pressure to pretend otherwise.
I remember back in high scool a friend of mine ws dating a very cute girl who was a *tiny* bit overweight. One day some of our other friends started getting on his case for that, and he reacted really defensively, saying “come on, she has a cute face,” etc. At the time I was just dumbfounded by this. He eventually broke up with her. Not sure to what extent this peer pressure had to so with it.