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Tempest in a Bee Cup: TheWoolyBumblebee expelled from A Voice for Men for making angry men even angrier

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More drama at A Voice for Men! Kristina Hansen — the excitable FeMRA videoblogger better known as TheWoolybumblebee — has been tossed off the good ship AVFM by Master and Commander Paul Elam for what he calls her “constant public conflicts with elements of our community.”

You can hear her side of the case in the video below. She claims to be shocked — shocked! — to find that Elam expected his contributors to toe his ideological line. And even more shocked to find him making generalizations about women — something, Ms.Bumblebee claims, that makes him no better than the feminists he criticizes!

Yeah, the trouble with ex-AVFMers is that they were dunderheaded enough to have signed up as AVFMers in the first place. (When we last met her here on Man Boobz she was returning a pair of misandric pants to the store, outraged that a tiny portion of the profits would go to help girls facing oppression in the developing world.)

Before you watch the whole video, though — it’s 14 minutes long — you might want some of the backstory. It’s long and messy, too, but I’ll try to keep it  as brief as I can.

First, I should probably note the irony in Elam’s explanation for her dismissal, given that Elam himself is well-known for his own “constant public conflicts” with others in the Men’s Rights movement and the manosphere in general, having launched very public attacks on various others in the past — most notably on Pickup artists — and responding with intemperate anger towards pretty much everyone who even mildly disagrees with him about anything in public.

Heck, at one point he got so annoyed by people disagreeing with him on the Men’s Rights subreddit that he tried to set up his own Men’s Rights Activists subreddit where he could ban the people he disliked; it never took off and he abandoned it.

Elam’s pink-slipping of Ms. Bumblebee is doubly ironic, because one of the issues she’s been involved in “constant public conflicts” about has been MGTOW. (She’s not a fan.)

You might think that wouldn’t be a problem, as A Voice for Men has not exactly been on the best of terms with a big chunk of the MGTOW community for some time. The regulars on MGTOWforums, the biggest MGTOW hub, regularly refer to AVFM as “A Voice for Manginas” and worse; they’re especially offended that Elam lets women — sorry, “cunts” — post there. Elam has responded by denouncing the “MGTOW Forum Fuckwits.” The war of not-so-nice words seems never-ending; for some recent examples on MGTOWforums here and here — and in AVFM’s own forum here.

But Elam apparently still thinks he can somehow charm those MGTOWers who don’t already hate his guts, and he’s been making some efforts to get their attention lately — a fact that has not escaped his non-fans over on MGTOWforums, who have been decidedly unimpressed with his efforts so far.

So Elam was none too happy when Ms. Bumblebee started making videos attacking MGTOWers head on — videos which caused a little firestorm of controvery in the MGTOW world and got MGTOWers even madder at AVFM for putting up with such an evil “wench.”

Ms. Bumblebee has also been saying less than kind things about libertarianism for months on her blog, on YouTube, and on Twitter, where she bluntly declared it a “a cancer within the MRM.”

Turns out that was a bit of a faux pas. Though AVFM pretends to be “apolitical,” and has a few people associated with it who consider themselves liberal, most of the “big names” there  — not just Elam but John “the Other” Hembling, and Karen (GirlWritesWhat) Straughan — pretty obviously lean libertarian.

Indeed, in a not-very-friendly comment on Reddit about Ms. Bumblebee’s departure from AVFM, Straughan suggests that she’s essentially a “a child …  having a tantrum,” who doesn’t appreciate that the Men’s Rights movement is all about “free thinkers and John Galts.” (Yeah, she really did say that.)

She also accuses Ms. B of not reading enough E Belfort Bax — which is, I have to admit, the first time I’ve ever seen anyone accused of that particular crime in a political debate.

In case you’re not yourself a Baxhead, he was an opponent of women’s suffrage perhaps best known for his 1913 essay “The Fraud of Feminism,” a rather obscure piece of writing that’s having a sort of revival amongst a certain segment of the Men’s Rights movement. Indeed, A Voice for Men recently reprinted a portion of Bax’s essay with a glowing and altogether uncritical introduction by Elam himself.

It’s actually rather revealing. A Voice for Men is happy to republish the work of a long dead author who thought that women should be denied the right to vote. But a live woman who doesn’t agree with Elam about libertarianism or MGTOWers — over the side she goes!

Here’s her video. If you don’t want to watch the whole thing, you could just skip ahead to 5:20 to hear her express her astonishment that Elam would make sweeping generalizations about all women (say it ain’t so!), or to about 7:50 where she sets forth her basic complaint about AVFM and the way she says she was treated by Elam et al.

If you only have a couple of minutes, or limited patience for YouTube videos, at least listen to the excerpts of the testy phone conversation with Elam in which she officially learned she was no longer a part of AVFM; they start at about 10:40.

Ms. B has labeled this video Part 1. I don’t know how many more parts are coming. But I’ll certainly be watching.

For the masochists among you, Elam has put up the entire conversation he had with Ms. B — it’s half an hour long, and I listened to the whole damn thing.  I assume he thinks it makes him look better and her look worse, but, you know, it really, really doesn’t. Unless you’re really into patronizing mansplaining and apologias for angry misogyny amongst MRAs and MGTOWers. He concludes by throwing a little fit and hanging up. Or maybe she hangs up. I can’t tell.

Ms. B., when she can get a word in edgewise, makes a lot of very good points in the call, bluntly and directly calling him on his some of his bullshit; it’s only when she starts going on about the evils of feminism that I remember how warped her worldview really is.

Alongside the video, Elam also posted the email he sent Ms. B dismissing her from AVFM, which confirms that he was indeed pissed off by what he calls her “divisive conduct” towards MGTOWers and all those John Galts of the MRM.

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Kittehserf
7 years ago

It’s amazing his head didn’t explode. A woman! Contradicting him! Talking back! RAAAAAGE!

pecunium
7 years ago

Zazzle is a POD vendor. There is no backstock, they are made when ordered.

katz
7 years ago

Still amusing that they’re still available, though.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

For no reason at all: kitties!

http://youtu.be/iEeydHVpcmk

katz
7 years ago

Aww, so wiggly 🙂

Kittehserf
7 years ago

She was being table tennis champion for a few minutes, too. Then she got bored. 🙂

For the last hour-odd it’s been zzzzzzzzzzzz – I’m the only one awake in the house. (Mr K’s over the other side, gardening.)

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

I guess Mr. Elam’s 12-hour FB exile is up. He’s posted the post whinging about the deleted post. It’s all very meta. There’s a commenter going off about Petty Feminist Tyrants too. My band name.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

Petty Feminist Tyrants is the best band name. What will you wear? Will high leather boots and spikes feature?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Hey, that’s the trademark of my band, the Evil Feminist Dommes. No stealing.

La Strega
7 years ago

Oh, darn. I just loved the idea of Paul E. being stuck with a bazillion of ’em.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

Hmm … maybe if the Feminist Tyrants are only Petty, they need something milder? Ankle boots covered in legos, perhaps?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I’m thinking that an MRA’s idea of a petty lady tyrant would probably involve an apron and a feather duster.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

I really wish I didn’t have that image in my head now …

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I’m also imagining the lady tyrant gently smacking some dude with her feather duster in the video for their first single “I Run The House With An Iron Vagina”, and thousands of MRAs swarming YouTube to call that out as an example of how domestic violence it totally 50/50.

cloudiah
7 years ago

I just loved the idea of Paul E. being stuck with a bazillion of ‘em.

If I had unlimited resources*, and knew Paul E’s address, I would doxx him but I would set him up to receive shipments of 100 of those mugs every week for as long as he lives. Just for fun.

*So that actually important things could also be funded.

cloudiah
7 years ago

And OMG Cassandra, MAKE IT HAPPEN, THAT VIDEO.

katz
7 years ago

So is this a petty tyrant and not a hideously sexist ad?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

In the grand tradition of MRAs not understanding pop culture, yes. Also the lady has her hair hidden, which is misandry because it may make some boners unhappy.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

Plus, she’s wearing makeup and work clothes, and has fairly strong-looking arms which she’s folded across her boobs, hiding them. It sends out totes confusing messages about whether she’s a sexthing or a butch lesbian feminazi, and that’s misandry!

(Wearing makeup is misandry itself, of course, because DECEPTION! Not wearing makeup is also misandry, because ooh ugly sad boners.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

As our friend the bumblebee is only now figuring out, there is no way to be a woman and not be a seething mass of misandry in MRA-land.

melody
melody
7 years ago

(Wearing makeup is misandry itself, of course, because DECEPTION! Not wearing makeup is also misandry, because ooh ugly sad boners.)

THIS. That is all.

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

You all have really made me laugh. Thank you. I have spent most of the day having emotions other than happy.

Be excellent to each other, and petty to MRAs.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

Glad to be of service, grumpycatisagirl! 🙂

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

You . . . are correct.

MrFancyPants
MrFancyPants
7 years ago

It’s really impossible to go wrong with internet cat videos, although of course PZ will murder me to the death for saying that.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

PZ Myers, d’you mean? Fer why?

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

…as opposed to murdering you not to death? o.Õ?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Maybe it’s as opposed to murdering him to the resurrection because atheism?

(I’m confused too.)

MrFancyPants
MrFancyPants
7 years ago

Just a joke referring to PZ’s anti-caturday posts. He’s not actually anti-cat, he just like to pretend to be so 🙂

Kittehserf
7 years ago

Hey, murdering to the death makes sense to me! You gotta do these things properly.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

Just as well he isn’t anti-cat, I’d, I’d have to boycott his blog by not commenting there.* That’d show him.

*Even though I never have.

MrFancyPants
MrFancyPants
7 years ago

Also, back on topic, I noticed this post from GWW on the telephone youtube:

“I have … respectful, rational discussions even with people who think women’s suffrage should be revoked, and consider the idea without kneejerking all over the place.”

WTF. She seriously hears someone say “WOMEN SHOULDN’T BE ALLOWED TO VOTE!” and responds with something along the lines of “hmm, interesting, what is the basis of that statement? I am willing to consider this idea.”

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Well, I’d probably say something neutral like that while finding a way out of the convo without risking ANGRY REACTIONS. Because that “logic” cannot lead anywhere pretty.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

It’d be one thing if she were leading them on to demonstrate what total arseholes they are … but being GWW, she isn’t. The self-hatred is strong in this one.

I wonder if she actually votes? All that servile agreement with the Great God Elam & co surely means she shouldn’t have the presumption to think she has any right to a say in her country’s future. Of course it’s easy enough not to vote when you’re not required to anyway. (Actually it’s perfectly easy not to vote or get fined with a compulsory voting system, but that’s another matter.)

MrFancyPants
MrFancyPants
7 years ago

The ellipsis hides a “(cont)” and a comment break as she continued her thoughts between comments, btw. No substantive part of that comment lost.

Maude LL
Maude LL
7 years ago

MrFancyPants
I don’t think she says ‘what is the basis of that statement?’
She’s more the kind to say: “Right on! Vote for women = end of civilization”

Kittehserf
7 years ago

I have a better idea: votes for cats!

MrFancyPants
MrFancyPants
7 years ago

Speaking just about this household, Kittehserf, I don’t think our cats would be very good public servants. They’re very engaged when it comes to tuna cans and Trader Joe’s treats and chirping at fat birds they see through the windows roosting on telephone wires, but somehow whenever a policy decision needs to be made, they are asleep on a tower in the corner somewhere.

katz
7 years ago

WTF. She seriously hears someone say “WOMEN SHOULDN’T BE ALLOWED TO VOTE!” and responds with something along the lines of “hmm, interesting, what is the basis of that statement? I am willing to consider this idea.”

Generally that would smack of extreme fallacy of the middle–some people do seem to think they have to give fair consideration to every idea or else they’re being a reactionary partisan–except you know she would react by kicking and screaming to any even vaguely feminist idea.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

That sounds just like our lot!

I daresay we’d lose ’em at the word “servants”. That’s humans’ job, after all. Indeed I suspect kitties might have a (shudder) libertarian take on things. They aren’t required to put in at all, but they do expect to get all the infrastructure (chairs, beds, cushions, heaters, food, gardens to play in, warm windowsills, toys, etc).

Oh, I just read that post on Pharyngula about the nitwit who claimed PZ turned him into an MRA. So much laughage.

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

But how can GWW have rational discussions? She’s a woman! Aren’t women incapable of that, according to her own teachings?

Kittehserf
7 years ago

Makes you wonder just how far her special snowflake cognitive dissonance carries her, doesn’t it?

BTW love your avatar, Dvärghundspossen. I’d seen it at the Pervocracy but hadn’t been able to enlarge it. Did you draw it?

neuroticbeagle
neuroticbeagle
7 years ago
Kittehserf
7 years ago

I <3 that so much!

Never mind about "votes for cats" – VOTE FOR CATS!

Kittehserf
7 years ago

And for brain-meltdown cute: Bouncing Beagle puppy!

http://youtu.be/raGHjh-HYWU

katz
7 years ago

But how can GWW have rational discussions? She’s a woman! Aren’t women incapable of that, according to her own teachings?

I think it counts as a rational discussion if a man is talking to her and she just smiles and nods.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

Then brags about it all on another interminable video.

neuroticbeagle
neuroticbeagle
7 years ago

Beagle!!! My Overlord doesn’t jump up and down for stuffed animals (and she knows how to get on and take over the couch) but she will jump for food.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

Can you imagine if GrillWritesShrimp had said the same thing about debating the merits of letting men vote? Something tells me that Strictly Objective Reason And Logic(tm) don’t go very far in the MRM. Hell, a disproportionate amount of the MRM rhetoric I see in the wild is people bringing up those few posts from RadFemHub like they’re feminist Gospel. “Kneejerking” is one term to use for it.