More drama at A Voice for Men! Kristina Hansen — the excitable FeMRA videoblogger better known as TheWoolybumblebee — has been tossed off the good ship AVFM by Master and Commander Paul Elam for what he calls her “constant public conflicts with elements of our community.”
You can hear her side of the case in the video below. She claims to be shocked — shocked! — to find that Elam expected his contributors to toe his ideological line. And even more shocked to find him making generalizations about women — something, Ms.Bumblebee claims, that makes him no better than the feminists he criticizes!
Yeah, the trouble with ex-AVFMers is that they were dunderheaded enough to have signed up as AVFMers in the first place. (When we last met her here on Man Boobz she was returning a pair of misandric pants to the store, outraged that a tiny portion of the profits would go to help girls facing oppression in the developing world.)
Before you watch the whole video, though — it’s 14 minutes long — you might want some of the backstory. It’s long and messy, too, but I’ll try to keep it as brief as I can.
First, I should probably note the irony in Elam’s explanation for her dismissal, given that Elam himself is well-known for his own “constant public conflicts” with others in the Men’s Rights movement and the manosphere in general, having launched very public attacks on various others in the past — most notably on Pickup artists — and responding with intemperate anger towards pretty much everyone who even mildly disagrees with him about anything in public.
Heck, at one point he got so annoyed by people disagreeing with him on the Men’s Rights subreddit that he tried to set up his own Men’s Rights Activists subreddit where he could ban the people he disliked; it never took off and he abandoned it.
Elam’s pink-slipping of Ms. Bumblebee is doubly ironic, because one of the issues she’s been involved in “constant public conflicts” about has been MGTOW. (She’s not a fan.)
You might think that wouldn’t be a problem, as A Voice for Men has not exactly been on the best of terms with a big chunk of the MGTOW community for some time. The regulars on MGTOWforums, the biggest MGTOW hub, regularly refer to AVFM as “A Voice for Manginas” and worse; they’re especially offended that Elam lets women — sorry, “cunts” — post there. Elam has responded by denouncing the “MGTOW Forum Fuckwits.” The war of not-so-nice words seems never-ending; for some recent examples on MGTOWforums here and here — and in AVFM’s own forum here.
But Elam apparently still thinks he can somehow charm those MGTOWers who don’t already hate his guts, and he’s been making some efforts to get their attention lately — a fact that has not escaped his non-fans over on MGTOWforums, who have been decidedly unimpressed with his efforts so far.
So Elam was none too happy when Ms. Bumblebee started making videos attacking MGTOWers head on — videos which caused a little firestorm of controvery in the MGTOW world and got MGTOWers even madder at AVFM for putting up with such an evil “wench.”
Ms. Bumblebee has also been saying less than kind things about libertarianism for months on her blog, on YouTube, and on Twitter, where she bluntly declared it a “a cancer within the MRM.”
Turns out that was a bit of a faux pas. Though AVFM pretends to be “apolitical,” and has a few people associated with it who consider themselves liberal, most of the “big names” there — not just Elam but John “the Other” Hembling, and Karen (GirlWritesWhat) Straughan — pretty obviously lean libertarian.
Indeed, in a not-very-friendly comment on Reddit about Ms. Bumblebee’s departure from AVFM, Straughan suggests that she’s essentially a “a child … having a tantrum,” who doesn’t appreciate that the Men’s Rights movement is all about “free thinkers and John Galts.” (Yeah, she really did say that.)
She also accuses Ms. B of not reading enough E Belfort Bax — which is, I have to admit, the first time I’ve ever seen anyone accused of that particular crime in a political debate.
In case you’re not yourself a Baxhead, he was an opponent of women’s suffrage perhaps best known for his 1913 essay “The Fraud of Feminism,” a rather obscure piece of writing that’s having a sort of revival amongst a certain segment of the Men’s Rights movement. Indeed, A Voice for Men recently reprinted a portion of Bax’s essay with a glowing and altogether uncritical introduction by Elam himself.
It’s actually rather revealing. A Voice for Men is happy to republish the work of a long dead author who thought that women should be denied the right to vote. But a live woman who doesn’t agree with Elam about libertarianism or MGTOWers — over the side she goes!
Here’s her video. If you don’t want to watch the whole thing, you could just skip ahead to 5:20 to hear her express her astonishment that Elam would make sweeping generalizations about all women (say it ain’t so!), or to about 7:50 where she sets forth her basic complaint about AVFM and the way she says she was treated by Elam et al.
If you only have a couple of minutes, or limited patience for YouTube videos, at least listen to the excerpts of the testy phone conversation with Elam in which she officially learned she was no longer a part of AVFM; they start at about 10:40.
Ms. B has labeled this video Part 1. I don’t know how many more parts are coming. But I’ll certainly be watching.
For the masochists among you, Elam has put up the entire conversation he had with Ms. B — it’s half an hour long, and I listened to the whole damn thing. I assume he thinks it makes him look better and her look worse, but, you know, it really, really doesn’t. Unless you’re really into patronizing mansplaining and apologias for angry misogyny amongst MRAs and MGTOWers. He concludes by throwing a little fit and hanging up. Or maybe she hangs up. I can’t tell.
Ms. B., when she can get a word in edgewise, makes a lot of very good points in the call, bluntly and directly calling him on his some of his bullshit; it’s only when she starts going on about the evils of feminism that I remember how warped her worldview really is.
Alongside the video, Elam also posted the email he sent Ms. B dismissing her from AVFM, which confirms that he was indeed pissed off by what he calls her “divisive conduct” towards MGTOWers and all those John Galts of the MRM.
@Maude, I know. He wants to abolish all laws against domestic violence*, and yet he still thinks he’s harming straight women by going his own way. Dude, going your own way is a fantastic idea. You are doing a great favor to humanity by staying away from women.
*Oh yeah, remember that it is “shaming language” to call the MRM the abusers’ lobby.
@thebionicmommy,
I love you!
I’ll add a few demands of my own:
1. I’d love to take a time machine back to 1966 London and enjoy a hot night of passion with Syd Barrett.
2. I’d love non-stop world peace!
3. I’d love a pet unicorn.
4. I want to spout wings & fly!
5. I want these MRAs to shut up! Unfortunately David Futrelle would have to come up with another awesome website.
Thanks, spukikitty, I love you too! I think your demands are very reasonable. Of all of them, #5 is the least likely to happen, though. It is simply impossible for MRA’s to ever stop whining.
I have to admit being quiet encouraged by what’s transpired. Normally my tendency is to steer clear of the debates except to debunk the bad science of the men’s rights movement (God help me I’m a guy and I HATE Paul elam. I’ve been completely outspoken in hating him because i think his forums exist SPECFIICALLY to tell men that it’s all women’s fault. all… I have found his forum intolerable and abhorent because I have a growth oriented philosophy and I think the time in the wilderness after a breakup aught to be spent at least in part asking why this happened and what your part in it was)
what kills me about wooly is that if she started her own forum i’d join because of just the key phrase she used “own your shit. I’m not going to treat you like a child”
which is ironically to me what every single feminist and woman has been thinking for a long time. “I might be willing to admit I fucked up some if you would just stop acting like it was ENTIRELY my fault. You’re mad enough for BOTH of us”
i wasn’t always this way but looking at the guys over the years has truly disturbed me and i’d give anything NOT to end up that way. what strikes me as the MOST creepy aspect of a voice for men is it’s placement and timing issues.
This is a site that’s there for men on what paul elam in the video acknowledges is the worst day of their lives, their suicide threats and his philosophy is not to empower them that if they hold on for one more day they can CHANGE things but to Disempower them by telling them it’s all womens fault and that they’re victims and they need to overcome the looming spectre of feminism
Feminism is not the enemy. In a lot of capacities feminist are the FIRST ones pointing out that it’s obvious men are the more sensitive of the two sexes and need emotional support and protection. It seems that one of the primary concerns of feminism has been to exert the primacy of women being able to carry the mantle whereas they’re not so sure every single guy is and that’s OK. Feminism has been against gender binary for a VERY long time
Paul elam exist to blind men to the empowering reality. and that’s what dirves me crazy about him. he doesn’t have the insight to realize someone like me for instance after a breakup is not going to want to check in at avfm because we’re too clever for him at this point. Yes it hurts. yes I want to cry. No I don’t want to get out of bed. Yes I want to go get a drink. Do I want to drink with paul? no. I’d rather drink alone then with him
you are the ONLY person who CAN change your life and Paul is part of the Organized denial of that.
don’t you think it’s time for SEVERANCE? I’m not saying stop breeding,. I’m saying learn to stand on our own two feet. is it really fair to blame everyone else for everything just so you can chain yourself up and feel disempowered? the only person you’re really punishing then is YOURSELF
and that’s what people don’t get about this so called “Rights’ movement. it’s not empowering men. It’s enabling them to slip into a state of disempowerment
So, like, I understand how in their own uniquely persecution complex-infested way they might come to the conclusion that the other three points uberasshole mentioned are justifiable (they’re completely wrong, but I can see how they reasoned themselves into that position), but how do they justify demanding that all common property from a marriage automatically goes to the husband in a divorce? And how do they expect to get anyone to else agree to that (or to the idea that children are property and should be divvied up the same way the house and the car are)?
Also I wonder if it’s occurred to Paulie that the logical conclusions of his claim that mothers are obliged to protect their children from his potential wrath (by kissing his ass) are a. that his anger is dangerous to children and b. that mothers should therefore not associate with him at all just in case. He’s framing himself as a potential danger to anyone who associates with him, which doesn’t seem very smart from a PR perspective.
Cassandra — simple, they want all the worst parts of the early Victorian era. That’s how shit was 200~ years ago — divorce was basically not a thing, and when it was there was damned good cause (and everybody fucking knew it, the few cases I can think of were DV type cases that could’ve turned to murder, and things like “well, he is going to be hanged for murder”); all property, even what she had before the marriage (which was technically her father’s then) went to him…I think her jewelry might’ve been hers, but that might’ve been later; kids go to him unless, you know, he’s going to be hanged for murder; DV the norm, unless you were a drunkard and nearly killed her, repeatedly, I can’t recall seeing it ever being a “big deal”.
And, of course, “female hysteria”. These guys are probably just dying to say women should be locked away forever for daring to attempt such complex thoughts as math and science (or feminism, gotta force feed those suffragettes!)
Him, a danger?! Only in your poor overwrought feminist mind! You must be brainwashed! (Lol, I once “dared” contest my father that no, the Jews did not “deserve” the holocaust, he ended up yelling up the stairs at me when I stormed off after “who brainwashed you?!”…yeah, Elam’s probably no better)
As for the Victorian era, can I have the fashions of the corsets loose but supportive period? With some gears and gloves and googles? Yeah I’ll take Steampunk over Victorian morals thanks.
/Victorian ramble
Yeah, I took history too (in the UK even, home of Victorianism), so I know all that. What I don’t understand is how they think they’re going to get anyone in our current society to agree that all property within a marriage belongs to the husband, without even bothering to offer an explanation as to why that should be the case. It’s the “well obviously” inherent in uberasshole’s comment that raised my eyebrows.
These guys don’t seem to be aware how out of stuff with current society they are.
Step, not stuff. I can type good, honest.
CassandraSays, it’s simple asslogic. Men are currently discriminated against in divorces because *mumble mumble*. To make up for this, we need to make sure women are discriminated against instead.
discrimination against men = -1
discrimination against women = +1
discrimination against men + discrimination against women = 0
Equality achieved.
Are they even bothering to pretend they want equality? Choosing a nym like ubermensch doesn’t really indicate a love for equality as a principle.
Basically this. Similar to how Owly was always demanding women go about punching each other out to make up for all the times men have fought in wars and/or engaged in any violence that may have helped some woman.
@ spukikity
Having a pet unicorn is oppressive to bronies!
This is a very good point. Also, whatever happened to all their faux concern about child abuse, or their compassion for boys? If a woman says something Paulie doesn’t like, then her children, including boys, become targets for harassment from the AVfM crowd. Even if he think all women and girls are lying, hypergamous bitches, it seems he would at least not direct his wrath at boys.
Of all the things I’ve seen from Elam, I think this was about the lowest yet. (although it’s hard to get much worse than “bash a violent bitch month”)
Oooh, can I have a list of Things I Want Or I’ll Pout?
1. M’lud to be able to physically incarnate here.
2. Moar kitties
3. My own house. Free. No paying rates, no utility bills.
4. A mini-TARDIS to get to work.
5. No more hot summers! In fact no more summer. Twice as much autumn instead.
6. Lots of trees like in Vermont, f’rinstance.
7. Moar kitties!
8. Someone else to clean up after the kitties.
9. Toilet paper for the kitties so they don’t use my SLEEVE when I cuddle them.
@Dae’Ros Dai’Meyez
What you say is true, they rarely can see the more life affirming reality that any person can at least steer their life in a better direction. But if they already knew that, they wouldn’t be MRAs.
The trouble with the MRM’s idea of “male empowerment” or even “men’s rights” is that it’s not just whining about men as victims of Teh Evil Wimmin – it’s about their desire to rape, beat and kill women; to deny us the right to life; to deny us the vote, work, independence of any sort, any protection under the law. The mercy is that there are hardly any of them and they’re all piss and no wind, just a bunch of keyboard warriors. Look at the oh-so-brave John the Otter, who turned “a couple of people tearing down posters and disagreeing with him” into a mob wielding boxcutters and bent on slitting his throat!!!!11eleventy!
It’s not just that Elam and co. discourage men from taking real responsibility for their own lives, from looking at themselves and learning; it’s that when they put women as The Enemy, they’re calling for violence against us, and against any man not as hate-filled as they are (see Ball’s terrorist manifesto).
Things That I Must Have…OR ELSE!
1. The ability to teleport places with whatever I need
2. Enough money so that I will never have to work again
3. Fenced in backyard for the dog
4. A cat
5. Self Cleaning house/backyard (that will also do kitty litter)
6. Self Filling refrigerator/ Self Cooking stove/oven/ Self cleaning dishware
7. Perfect health
8. The ability to change sex/appearance on demand
9. The ability to change species on demand
19. To be allowed to be a member of the Furrinati
“8. The ability to change sex/
appearanceon demand”Well I was going to make a one point “I want sleep” list, but yeah, I’ll totally take that change sex on demand thing, particularly if whole new configurations are an option (ok, not whole new, but like, parts of GRS I guess? I’m too tired to explain)
Also, enough space and money for a whole shit ton of fish tanks and the piping to auto fill and easy clean them. The arm equivalent of waders would also be nice.
Multiple fully climate controlled greenhouses? Including one for the demands of my beloved plant best known as “give me coffee NOW!”
Would it sound trite to add whirled peas? Or at least not having anyone die of starvation or preventable/treatable disease while other people own private jets?
I’ll settle for sleep (and gloves up to my armpits, because I’ve only recently come unpruned…like, *runs hands down face, image behind eye lids is fish eggs*…definitely had worse, but by all the gods did I spend too much time armpit deep in that tank!)
Yes I get that, mixing up male and female body parts would be cool.
Also, by appearance, I wasn’t critiquing the way I look in the usual sense; I think just think it would be cool to grow a tail or have pointy cat ears or gills/fins, turn myself various colors- stuff that happens in Harry Potter vs. Cosmo
“The arm equivalent of waders would also be nice.”
Oh gods yes. I’ve done my share of feeding bottom-dwelling fish in a big tank in my Museum days. Roll up uniform sleeve as far as possible, climb ladder, reach in with food at bottom of long tongs, try to persuade blind cat-sharks that this is food and could they please just take it instead of swimming away.
Also for those who didn’t radiate “I have cats and I know how to use them” vibes, get bitten by cowfish. 😛
neuroticbeagle — oh, sorry, didn’t realize you meant, um, not currently available options? Mostly though, I was just all squee over a dangly bits swapper (yeah, I’ve been discussing the need for this invention with the ok-probably-an-ex for ages [see, ex implies like, we were dating, and broke up, neither happened and this is all fine and dandy, but I don’t want to even remotely refer to zir by zir’s real name, so the only initial I could use is ze’s nym, but X is real useful eh?])
I’m tired babbling, someone shut me up with fish pics or something!
How about this cute little character?
http://freshsaltwaterfish.com/images/cute-saltwater-fish-3.jpg
Angry cowfish, sounds pleasant. Not it’s fault your hand is in a neon glove and looks like coral! Also, that jump sounds awesome, though I imagine wearing a wetsuit and just getting in to feed the fish wouldn’t go over well.
Or this one? (okay not a fish, but cute!)
http://bestfons.ru/_ph/29/2/512851026.jpg