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Tempest in a Bee Cup: TheWoolyBumblebee expelled from A Voice for Men for making angry men even angrier

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More drama at A Voice for Men! Kristina Hansen — the excitable FeMRA videoblogger better known as TheWoolybumblebee — has been tossed off the good ship AVFM by Master and Commander Paul Elam for what he calls her “constant public conflicts with elements of our community.”

You can hear her side of the case in the video below. She claims to be shocked — shocked! — to find that Elam expected his contributors to toe his ideological line. And even more shocked to find him making generalizations about women — something, Ms.Bumblebee claims, that makes him no better than the feminists he criticizes!

Yeah, the trouble with ex-AVFMers is that they were dunderheaded enough to have signed up as AVFMers in the first place. (When we last met her here on Man Boobz she was returning a pair of misandric pants to the store, outraged that a tiny portion of the profits would go to help girls facing oppression in the developing world.)

Before you watch the whole video, though — it’s 14 minutes long — you might want some of the backstory. It’s long and messy, too, but I’ll try to keep it  as brief as I can.

First, I should probably note the irony in Elam’s explanation for her dismissal, given that Elam himself is well-known for his own “constant public conflicts” with others in the Men’s Rights movement and the manosphere in general, having launched very public attacks on various others in the past — most notably on Pickup artists — and responding with intemperate anger towards pretty much everyone who even mildly disagrees with him about anything in public.

Heck, at one point he got so annoyed by people disagreeing with him on the Men’s Rights subreddit that he tried to set up his own Men’s Rights Activists subreddit where he could ban the people he disliked; it never took off and he abandoned it.

Elam’s pink-slipping of Ms. Bumblebee is doubly ironic, because one of the issues she’s been involved in “constant public conflicts” about has been MGTOW. (She’s not a fan.)

You might think that wouldn’t be a problem, as A Voice for Men has not exactly been on the best of terms with a big chunk of the MGTOW community for some time. The regulars on MGTOWforums, the biggest MGTOW hub, regularly refer to AVFM as “A Voice for Manginas” and worse; they’re especially offended that Elam lets women — sorry, “cunts” — post there. Elam has responded by denouncing the “MGTOW Forum Fuckwits.” The war of not-so-nice words seems never-ending; for some recent examples on MGTOWforums here and here — and in AVFM’s own forum here.

But Elam apparently still thinks he can somehow charm those MGTOWers who don’t already hate his guts, and he’s been making some efforts to get their attention lately — a fact that has not escaped his non-fans over on MGTOWforums, who have been decidedly unimpressed with his efforts so far.

So Elam was none too happy when Ms. Bumblebee started making videos attacking MGTOWers head on — videos which caused a little firestorm of controvery in the MGTOW world and got MGTOWers even madder at AVFM for putting up with such an evil “wench.”

Ms. Bumblebee has also been saying less than kind things about libertarianism for months on her blog, on YouTube, and on Twitter, where she bluntly declared it a “a cancer within the MRM.”

Turns out that was a bit of a faux pas. Though AVFM pretends to be “apolitical,” and has a few people associated with it who consider themselves liberal, most of the “big names” there  — not just Elam but John “the Other” Hembling, and Karen (GirlWritesWhat) Straughan — pretty obviously lean libertarian.

Indeed, in a not-very-friendly comment on Reddit about Ms. Bumblebee’s departure from AVFM, Straughan suggests that she’s essentially a “a child …  having a tantrum,” who doesn’t appreciate that the Men’s Rights movement is all about “free thinkers and John Galts.” (Yeah, she really did say that.)

She also accuses Ms. B of not reading enough E Belfort Bax — which is, I have to admit, the first time I’ve ever seen anyone accused of that particular crime in a political debate.

In case you’re not yourself a Baxhead, he was an opponent of women’s suffrage perhaps best known for his 1913 essay “The Fraud of Feminism,” a rather obscure piece of writing that’s having a sort of revival amongst a certain segment of the Men’s Rights movement. Indeed, A Voice for Men recently reprinted a portion of Bax’s essay with a glowing and altogether uncritical introduction by Elam himself.

It’s actually rather revealing. A Voice for Men is happy to republish the work of a long dead author who thought that women should be denied the right to vote. But a live woman who doesn’t agree with Elam about libertarianism or MGTOWers — over the side she goes!

Here’s her video. If you don’t want to watch the whole thing, you could just skip ahead to 5:20 to hear her express her astonishment that Elam would make sweeping generalizations about all women (say it ain’t so!), or to about 7:50 where she sets forth her basic complaint about AVFM and the way she says she was treated by Elam et al.

If you only have a couple of minutes, or limited patience for YouTube videos, at least listen to the excerpts of the testy phone conversation with Elam in which she officially learned she was no longer a part of AVFM; they start at about 10:40.

Ms. B has labeled this video Part 1. I don’t know how many more parts are coming. But I’ll certainly be watching.

For the masochists among you, Elam has put up the entire conversation he had with Ms. B — it’s half an hour long, and I listened to the whole damn thing.  I assume he thinks it makes him look better and her look worse, but, you know, it really, really doesn’t. Unless you’re really into patronizing mansplaining and apologias for angry misogyny amongst MRAs and MGTOWers. He concludes by throwing a little fit and hanging up. Or maybe she hangs up. I can’t tell.

Ms. B., when she can get a word in edgewise, makes a lot of very good points in the call, bluntly and directly calling him on his some of his bullshit; it’s only when she starts going on about the evils of feminism that I remember how warped her worldview really is.

Alongside the video, Elam also posted the email he sent Ms. B dismissing her from AVFM, which confirms that he was indeed pissed off by what he calls her “divisive conduct” towards MGTOWers and all those John Galts of the MRM.

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Myoo
Myoo
7 years ago

Wasn’t WoolyBumblebee the one that wrote that post saying that the word “creep” is the new “n-word”?
Also, the audio on that video is really poor.

Maude LL
Maude LL
7 years ago

I learned one thing with all this: It’s pronounced “Migtaw”.
I’m relieved I won’t have to say em-jee-tee-oh-double-u anymore when I make migtaw jokes.

Maude LL
Maude LL
7 years ago

Sidenote: Elam et al. aren’t libertarians. At best, they follow a convenient “one sided libertarianism”, were the societal utopia resides in them personally being able to do whatever the hell they want but others should follow their strict rule.

“One day, I’ll become master of the world”, he thinks while writing an article about manginas.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Wow. Just… wow. That’s some interesting drama for sure. (And horrifically, it does remind me of some of the in-fighting in the LGBT movement, of all things.)

Myoo
Myoo
7 years ago

re: my previous comment, I was wrong, actually. It was “misogynist” and not “creep” that is the new n-word and the author was not WoollyBumblebee but rather Nurdy Dancing.

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

Hey, did a troll sneak onto the forums?

And how?

And WHY? It’s not like they’re lively.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
7 years ago

I have to give credit where credit is due. WBB did show a lot of courage to call out Elam and disagree with him. If it were a guy disagreeing with him, that’s one thing. But when a woman does, then all hell breaks loose. That’s the whole point of them making R-her after all, to punish outspoken women.

Auggie
Auggie
7 years ago

Good Lord, a libertarian supporting an anti suffrage guy… “I support freedom from everything for everyone, except you, because I said so”.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Auggie

Were you there for that guy a week ago who was claiming that mandatory paternity testing needed to be instituted, even if the guy didn’t want them, to protect their freedom?

Worst llibertarian ever.

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

On-topic, so, WB is, um, well.. the misandric pants thing is what stands out to me. Here is a person who apparently believes the drivel they’re feeding out. But she notices the gender-based hate.

Black-Hat or PPT/Steele was blathering on about this the other day, right? This is what it looks like if you actually believed that crap. You’d notice the other bits, and still get freaked out about them while saying you agree with the overall goals.

And then when you start having schisms and seeing problems, there are two ways to take this. (my therapist and I agreed on this)

Double-down. Not only am I right, I’m super-right, and those who had it nearly right are just almost there, they need work.

Or actually question your premises. Think about what’s going on.

I’m not super-hopeful. She did fall for this stuff in the first place. But this is her chance to see what a den of vipers she’s been nesting down in, to see that the whole thing is really the abusers’ lobby, the men’s power movement. Open your eyes, WB!!

Maude LL
Maude LL
7 years ago

Other sidenote: GWW is profusely commenting on the Elam WBB youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n1k0hWqURE)
Mildly entertaining.

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

Good Lord, a libertarian supporting an anti suffrage guy… “I support freedom from everything for everyone, except you, because I said so”.

This is the core of it. Liberty for me, but not for thee. The core contradictions that are so obvious it ought to make their head asplode. And THEY CAN’T SEE IT.

Maude LL
Maude LL
7 years ago

Bonus for the PMS jokes by other mras too (damn, it’s too early for a drinking game).

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
7 years ago

And the youtube comments are, um, interesting. The MGTOW are basically like, “She thinks we’re misogynists? How dare that c*nt say such a thing. Bitches need to stay out of our movement because they’re all hysterical!” Their rebuttals also include NAWALT (Not all women are like that) because making an acronym of an argument renders it false, apparently, and then calling her a feminist. I’m laughing pretty hard at them thinking she’s a feminist. The Rebecca West quote sums that up, though.

I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.

MrFancyPants
MrFancyPants
7 years ago

Not too surprising. Elam is pure, unadulterated cognitive dissonance, in the body of a bully.

katz
7 years ago

I know I’m massively overoptimistic, but I do hold out hope that she’ll take her observation that Paul Elam is generalizing about women and figure out that this is all the whole movement has ever done.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
7 years ago

Another MGTOW said about her

This is why men need to be very, very careful when women state they are on our side. They’re not. Women are self serving creatures with near to total indifference towards men. The women who state they’re with us have to show it through their actions.

Women are not oblivious, naive creatures that are unaware of the inequalities facing men today. They know all too well, and they exploit this and will walk over a million men before giving up an inch of their privileges.

Somehow GWW takes no offense to such statements, though, or even cares that this is what would happen to her if she ever dares to disagree with Elam or JtO.

I know I’m massively overoptimistic, but I do hold out hope that she’ll take her observation that Paul Elam is generalizing about women and figure out that this is all the whole movement has ever done.

I kind of wonder that myself. At the very least, such a fiasco will probably lead her to do some serious soul searching. If she is looking for some part of the MRM that isn’t about bashing women, then she’ll realize that it simply doesn’t exist.

Maude LL
Maude LL
7 years ago

@bionicmommy
The mystifying part about gww is when she goes: “Yeah! All women *totally* are like that, it’s evolution/science, they can’t help their hormones, haha.”
She doesn’t seem to see the self-defeating aspect of what she says. I get the impression she means “all women are like that except for me”, but hey, maybe she does think that she is a self-serving, selfish, secretly anti-men, hormones, irrational, etc. Which would make all her conversations into a meta vortex of contradictions.

BlackBloc (@XBlackBlocX)

Ahhh. Sweet schaddefreude.

Whenever I get tired of another Jacobin magazine or Chris Hedges sniping at Occupy and anarchists, I can look at the MRA and be content in the fact that there are some movements out there where there are more daggers being put into people’s backs than on the radical Left.

Auggie
Auggie
7 years ago

The comments on Paul Elam’s video are just so stupid…
GirlWritesWhat said something about how she was super sick of everyone telling MRAs to “tone it down” because frozen peaches or something.

cloudiah
7 years ago

I can look at the MRA and be content in the fact that there are some movements out there where there are more daggers being put into people’s backs than on the radical Left.

Ha ha, so true. 0_o

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
7 years ago

@Maude

She doesn’t seem to see the self-defeating aspect of what she says. I get the impression she means “all women are like that except for me”, but hey, maybe she does think that she is a self-serving, selfish, secretly anti-men, hormones, irrational, etc. Which would make all her conversations into a meta vortex of contradictions.

That’s a good point. Does GWW think she is exempt from their rule that all women are irrational, materialistic bitches, or does she think she is one, too? If she is just a shallow, hypergamous, emotional woman, then why should anyone listen to what she has to say? It makes my brain hurt to try to understand her reasoning here.

Even if she can somehow handle that cognitive dissonance, I wonder why she isn’t worried to see how nasty they are acting toward WBB. She must not believe that could ever happen to her, that she could never make a mistake and get kicked out of the clubhouse.

thekidwiththereplaceablehead

http://nelson-haha.api-meal.eu/

She’s actually trying to do actual activism that might actually help male victims of DV in the form of the Earl Silverman Center. No wonder AVfM doesn’t want to be associated with her.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Well, this was bound to happen. I think WBB is still goofy as shit for her tirade about the jeans, but at least she’s somewhat calling Elam’s shit and has no time for these glibertarians.

I hope GWW, TyphoidBlew, JudgyBitch, and Suz are paying close attention to another woman getting kicked out of the treehouse.

katz
7 years ago

That’s a good point. Does GWW think she is exempt from their rule that all women are irrational, materialistic bitches, or does she think she is one, too? If she is just a shallow, hypergamous, emotional woman, then why should anyone listen to what she has to say? It makes my brain hurt to try to understand her reasoning here.

I think wherever there’s oppression there are a few people in the oppressed group that think that if they “toe the dogma” extra hard and oppress other people in their demographic even more, they’ll get a pass and get the “you’re not like them” treatment. NEVER HAPPENS.

pecunium
7 years ago

hellkell: But they aren’t like that! The are Good Girls, and support teh menz!

Not like that WBB, or those hair feminists, who are all uppity and shit, with the idea they can have opinions which differ at all from The Sacred Elam!

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: thebionicmommy

Waiting for bullshit troll explanation of how she doesn’t actually ID as a woman, ergo she’s above all that, and it’s all trans people’s fault.

Shadow
Shadow
7 years ago

@hellkell

Considering GWW’s response, and suz’s “All you women suck shit and no one can marry my imaginary son”, I won’t put it past them to be taking note and celebrating.

Also, GWW said

She only sees the people who joined the movement at the moment she did, when it began to become sort of fashionable

I haven’t been able to stop laughing

spukikitty
7 years ago

I hope this whole mess wakes TheWoolyBumblebee from her stupor of self-hatred & Stepfordism. A FeMRA is the most pitiful concept, ever. I almost feel sorry for these women. Elam is an utter fascist.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Hey, apparently Facebook did take one of AVfM’s posts down. Clear proof of the reign of the feminazi overlords! Also clear proof: they’ve done the same thing for posts promoting breastfeeding!

Feminazi overlords are hard to figure out.

spukikitty
7 years ago

Sidenote: Elam et al. aren’t libertarians. At best, they follow a convenient “one sided libertarianism”, were the societal utopia resides in them personally being able to do whatever the hell they want but others should follow their strict rule.

“One day, I’ll become master of the world”, he thinks while writing an article about manginas.

Fascist Randroid</italic is a much better term.

spukikitty
7 years ago

Sidenote: Elam et al. aren’t libertarians. At best, they follow a convenient “one sided libertarianism”, were the societal utopia resides in them personally being able to do whatever the hell they want but others should follow their strict rule.

“One day, I’ll become master of the world”, he thinks while writing an article about manginas.

Fascist Randroid is a much better term.

(Had to write again because I got the italics wrong & I can’t reedit my post!)

Shadow
Shadow
7 years ago

@spukikitty

Italics on wordpress is “em”

Auggie
Auggie
7 years ago

@cloudiah: Which post?

freemage
freemage
7 years ago

I’ve just about come to the conclusion that there are no ‘true Libertarians’ the way most of them define the term. Even Ayn Rand herself accepted state aid for her medical treatments (and would’ve died without doing so). Of course, she did so under a different name. I’m just about to say that the Venn Diagram of “Self-Proclaimed Libertarians” is fully engulfed by the diagram of “All Hypocrites”….

spukikitty
7 years ago

@spukikitty

Italics on wordpress is “em”

Okay, I’ll give it a try…

I WROTE THIS IN ITALICS!

spukikitty
7 years ago

By Jove! It works!

Shadow, can you provide a handy-dandy list of edit doodads for WordPress so I can write them down?

Also, is there a way to edit something after it’s posted?

THANX! =)

cloudiah
7 years ago

Auggie, I’ve already closed the page — it’s on the front page, it has an image of a keyboard with the word censored or censorship on it.

Cthulhu's Intern
7 years ago

So how long until Elam starts calling John the Otter a “mangina?” Or says that GWW is too feminist? How long until AVFM is just “A Voice for Elam?” I mean, not that it already isn’t, but how long until he just kicks out everyone because he finds one little thing they disagree on?
“You like Starbucks when I don’t? MISANDRY! Get off of my website!”

Cthulhu's Intern
7 years ago

Also, David! You forgot to mention about how they still continue to host an open call to firebomb couthouses in their “Activism” section.

mayimoktoo
mayimoktoo
7 years ago

It’s the battle of the hissy fits! Who will have the biggest conniption and win this round! Who cares!!?

Oh and hai. Finally delurking. Wanted a wittier first post to thank you all for the giggles I’ve joined in on as a ghost. And for Pierre, the brain bleach and the kitties. Then I figured this place isn’t terribly judgy when it comes to the usual commenter type. i.e. human being between the ages of 0 and 100 who is amused and often appalled by the weirdness of the manosphere.

Shadow
Shadow
7 years ago

@spukikitty

I’m not much of a netizen and know basically nothing about html, so I generally just google everytime I need something. This seems to cover all the basics, but I basically only use three or four tags myself, so I’m not the person to go to if you need anything more technical than that 😛

Shadow
Shadow
7 years ago

Also, there’s no edit on manboobz, mainly to keep trolls from editing their posts after they say some horrific shit

Marie
7 years ago

@spukikitty

The ones I know are:

i in < can also be italics italics

To strike out strike out use del in < and /del to end

bold I think is b.. bold if that works I did it right.

And blockquotes are blockquote in <

blockquote

So they’re all in < those… I hope that made sense.

cloudiah
7 years ago

There’s this extended comment from GWW on Paul’s video (which he’s threatening to take down):

I’m getting so sick of the (near-daily now) posts in r/mensrights about toning down the rhetoric, being less angry, watching language, please stop offending people, and especially that MRAs and feminists should be working together, as if feminism was just “equality” without all the theoretical garbage attached to it. I like Stardusk–I actually consider him a friend. I respect the shit out of Barbarossaaaa. I discuss female and male nature in general terms all the time.

I can have (cont)

respectful, rational discussions even with people who think women’s suffrage should be revoked, and consider the idea without kneejerking all over the place.

She says a lot of MGTOWs blame women for all their problems, but the most popular ones don’t. They blame a combination of male nature, female nature, and the environment.

For the last year, there’s been an increasing pressure in some MR circles to restrict expression of ideas and modes of expressing them. That’s suicide for the MRM.

Yeah, why would anyone have a kneejerk reaction to someone who wants to take away voting fight from a whole gender. Let’s have a respectful, rational discussion with them. Also, bring back the poll tax. I mean, it’s just an IDEA.

girlofthegaps
girlofthegaps
7 years ago

I always wonder if I shouldn’t get such a wonderful feeling of schadenfreude from reading the newest MRM debacle every morning, but it just gives me such a warm fuzzy feeling in my heart. Seriously, I just cannot process the amount of self-deception and cognitive dissonance that would lead any woman (or really any PERSON, tbh) to think that participating in the MRM would be a good idea. Or that anyone could think it ever was, is, or could become fashionable! :O

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

I’m not optimistic that this event will trigger serious reflection on Wooly BumbleBee’s part. Back when Jen McCreight went on hiatus because the amount of harassment she was getting for being a feminist was affecting her mental well-being, WBB took nothing but sheer vindictive delight in the announcement. She’s a bully, and the only thing that might make her grow a bit of compassion is experiencing the same scale of harassment McCreight did/is. She still probably wouldn’t, though.

Marie
7 years ago

@mayimoktoo

Welcome 😀

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

The more I hear about Ayn Rand, the more unpleasant I find her. An apologist for a sociopathic murderer, a hypocrite, and a monster pain in the ass. How the hell did she become so big?

cloudiah
7 years ago

Welcome, mayimoktoo. Here’s a welcome package for you:
http://artistryforfeminismandkittens.wordpress.com/the-official-man-boobz-complimentary-welcome-package/

Have I missed anyone else who’s new? Please claim your packages at the above link.

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