Men’s Rights, er, activists are waving their arms frantically in the air over what they see as a dire new threat to men and manhood: Facebook’s recent annoucement that it was going to try to do a better job of taking down violent images mocking victims of rape and domestic violence, and other kinds of misogynistic hate speech.
Last week, as many of you no doubt already know, a coalition of feminist groups launched a campaign targeting Facebook and its advertisers for tolerating this sort of content on Facebook — in many cases even after it was reported to Facebook moderators as clearly violating the site’s already existing policies against hate speech and graphic violence. (For many truly disgusting and possibly TRIGGERING examples, see here.)
Well, Facebook actually listened, and announced it would be making efforts to better handle “gender-based” hate speech, and would be “solicit[ing] feedback from legal experts and others, including representatives of the women’s coalition and other groups that have historically faced discrimination” — among them some of the groups involved in the protest. While Facebook’s promises remain vague, those behind the protest are hailing this, correctly I think, as a victory.
A lot of Men’s Rights activists, by contrast, seem to think Facebook’s new policy means the beginning of the end for free speech for men on the internet. And no one seems more worked up about it than A Voice for Men’s Supreme Commander Paul Elam.
In a posting he declared “probably the most important article I have ever written” — not that this is saying much — Elam attempted to rally the troops to fight against what he called “the greatest challenge the M(H)RM has faced so far.” Elam claimed that taking down images of brutalized women with captions like “women deserve equal rights — and lefts” isn’t the real goal here. No, he charged,
feminist ideologues are co-opting Facebook, and they will root out any and all opposition to their worldview.
But instead of lamenting this terrible alleged threat to the spirit of the First Amendment and Free Speech, Elam moves on — immediately, in the very next sentence — to an even more important issue:
That will include, at some point, the AVFM Facebook page and its nearly 3,500 fans (2,000 of which have come in the past two months).
How important this is? In a word, very.
Facebook accounts for roughly 10-13% of our traffic on most days, and with a rapidly growing fan base that promises to represent a continually increasing number of actual visitors to the site.
That’s right: FACEBOOK’S NEW POLICIES MAY REDUCE A VOICE FOR MEN’S TRAFFIC BY TEN TO THIRTEEN PERCENT.
And if feminists succeed in their dastardly plan to root out all non-feminist thought on Facebook — a plan which so far exists only in Elam’s paranoid imagination– then what?
Where do you imagine, if they are successful at eliminating men’s rights discussion from Facebook, they will go next? Reddit? YouTube?
How about Google?
Do you think they are above trying to have men’s rights websites de-listed from Google search returns?
If any of this actually happens, outside of Elam’s fever dreams of persecution, I pledge to literally eat my kitties. Or, at the very least, one of Werner Herzog’s shoes.
Of course, if Facebook simply does what it says it will do, and not what Elam imagines it will do, A Voice for Men’s Facebook page may find itself in a bit of trouble. Because a lot of what appears on AVFM — which continues to post an open call to firebomb courthouses and police stations on its activism page — can only be described as gender-based hate speech. (TRIGGER WARNING for what follows.)
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It was Elam, after all, who asked, about women who are date raped after drinking with men at bars:
[A]re these women asking to get raped?…
NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED.
They are freaking begging for it.
Damn near demanding it. …
[T]here are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I’M A STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH – PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.
And Elam — like a lot of the misogynistic “humorists” on Facebook — is not above using a picture of a brutalized woman to illustrate one of his little “jokes.” Here is a screenshot from one of his posts; the text is his, as is the caption to the picture. (He has since removed the picture from the post, though the hateful text remains.)
Of course, even as AVFM tries to whip up outrage over the alleged feminist/Facebook plan to silence the menz, the regulars there are having a hard time even pretending to be bothered by the violent images of rape and brutality that the feminist protesters have pointed to on Facebook. (You’d think, at least for PR purposes, they’d want to position themselves against violent rape “jokes.”)
Indeed, in an earlier AVFM post on the Facebook fracas, someone called Victor Zen seemed to argue that glorifying or even promoting rape is fine so long as you don’t actually go and do it. See if you can make sense of this word salad:
Rape, it’s glorification? My experience has been that people who post images, videos and text that promote rape and violence are doing it because they know the value of shock. If you conflate their intention to deceive with their presentation of an untruthful reality you rob yourself of the truth. It is tempting for some to believe as they say, but in the end those that do are denied what is actually real. I doubt real rapists are publicly announcing their desire to rape. I want numbers because I am curious.
How many examples of hate speech that WAM! and affiliates moan about lead to proven incidences of rape or domestic violence?
I don’t even … what?
The Men’s Rights movement: Fighting for the right to shout rape jokes on a crowded Facebook.
But, but, humans are animals and I need to know! also, I have issues with the use of the word civilized as it tends to be used to call indigenous peoples uncivilized and thus lesser.
Gotta be housebroken though, or you’d not be allowed indoors 🙂
Civlised, as in I have learned to be civil. I can mingle in company and not lash out at people. In other words, I am socially housebroken.
And humans aren’t domesticable; see Slavery, Uprisings.
Pecunium
“Asking questions (about positions one may, or may not, hold) is useful, when a person has outlined a position which is weak on those issues.” of course, but many feminists often criticize this for being disconnected to lived experience, or something and derailing.
“Vocabulary… lacking” Which vocabulary?
“Vocabulary… lacking” Which vocabulary?
Advocatus Diabolus, and it’s actual English usage. You didn’t understand them, and so tried to use them against me; when I had not, 1: misused the idea and 2: wasn’t derailing.
Which is two failures of direct vocabulary (to add to your inability to understand subtext, so it’s a larger problem than just this comment thread).
of course, but many feminists often criticize this for being disconnected to lived experience, or something and derailing.
No. What is criticised (In many places) is someone “just asking questions” in a way meant purely to incite heated discussion, and then saying, “I was only playing Devil’s Advocate”. Which is them 1: being assholes, and 2: misusing the words.
Which is what I said, and you didn’t understand (or are pretending to not). That’s a failure of indirect vocabulary (i.e. you failed at context).
Socially housebroken. I like it.
And the furry master is as displeased by the electrical situation as I am. Glad my brother’s nice and cool, but his AC keeps making my tank light flicker >.<
It cuts no ice with Ceiling Cat, either.
Argenti, just caught up about your psych … FUCKING BIGOTED IDIOT is all I can say of that person. I wonder how they’d react to the long-last news that the NSW Court of Appeal has at long last granted formal legal recognition to people who identify neither as male or female.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/please-just-call-me-norrie-this-is-a-whole-new-agenda-20130531-2nhmo.html
That stupidity aside, because fuck. I think part of it is that I’m not more coherent in person and they don’t have the benefit of rereading what I said. Like, yet again in my life, I’m just plain not making sense to other people.
As for that stupidity worst part? It was entirely irrelevant, like:
Gender related question, for the sixth time in as many months
Yeah, I don’t really identify as such, hence my avoiding that topic
Cue discussion of transition (which, btw, she was all awkward about until I flat out said that the forum I’m usually on has at least one trans* woman and a trans* man and no I don’t want to transition)
Cue awkward but pick one!
Like, couldn’t have just left it at no I don’t want to transition?
Eck, this is the wrong thread for this rant, let me know if we should take this to the open thread.
——-
“On topic” — I think sacrifices of birds might be exactly how to worship ceiling cat.
I’m not even going to mention bird sacrifices where
BasementCeiling Cat’s devotees can hear it. Mads was eyeballing some galahs out the window before.Oh, forgot to say OT – would it do any good to write out your position re: gender and transition and all, give it to psych and say “Read and learn, and refer to it if you want to ask me this stuff again!”? It sounds like Psych 2 is as thick as Psych 1. Does the centre get ’em in cheap job-lots or what?
Perhaps freeze dried chicken will do? Or as my mom calls it “kitty crack”
Kitteh — it isn’t worth it, seeing how I can just go “this isn’t relevant”. And this is meds-psych, she’s only there one day a week as she’s a nursing prof. The previous, entirely wonderful, meds psych was one of her interns. New talk psych is still only sorta pissing me off. The complete lack of talk therapy and need for measurable goals is really annoying, but blame insurance.
neuroticbeagle — I imagine frozen food is acceptable, gods know the bottom feeders go bonkers for freeze dried blood worms!
My suspicion is that all therapies have fashions and focuses that detract from genuinely attending to individual patient’s needs. The classic example being medical and nursing staff being more friendly and “accessible” by using people’s first names. Many elderly people are grossly offended by this. Even more so when they mention it and staff persist with calling them Tom or Enid, when they’ve _clearly_ stated Mr Brown or Mrs Williams as their preference.
I had an interesting exchange with one of the people dealing with mr. After a very friendly explanation about how they judge everything according to a patient’s (oh, wash my mouth out with soap, client‘s) needs, I suggested one way I thought would assist mr. when he came home. The response? Oh, that’s very old-fashioned! We don’t do that sort of thing any more. So much for individuality – if they were *really* into individuals, the proper response would have been ‘why do you think that’s a good idea. We usually find that ….. works well. Do you think ….. would suit mr?”
Argenti – ah, I’d forgotten this was a med psych you don’t have to see too often. Just keep throwing that IRRELEVANT DOES NOT COMPUTE at ’em, then!
mildlymagnificent – argh, yes, fashions in medicine (among other things … we’re not even flamin’ passengers on the trains now, we’re customers. Like we’ve a choice in what rail to use!)
I was all ready to do the “It’s MS ——–” the other day when I saw the knee surgeon. Medical types, including vets, who get called by their titles but still call patients (or patients’ owners) by their given names bug me. I don’t mind first name basis at all, but it goes both ways. Luckily said surgeon seemed to be a first-name bloke himself. Always makes me smh a bit when I see my opthamologist; he’s very easy-going and we’ve been on first name terms forever, same with my mum, but his staff all call him Doctor. At least he knows to go with what people want, since I mostly hear him calling older patients by their surnames.
I was going to step in and say, ‘hey, you guys, anybody else notice that PPT is sounding particularly–‘
But you guys had his number while I was gone.
(cough)
…I get that reference! (is pleased with self)
I love that book (my family used to own a brick and mortar used bookstore (all online now). I managed it for a few years.
Well, here’s a reasonable voice amongst all the yelling. Fozzie Bear.
http://abominableindustries.com/2013/06/12/talking-to-fozzie-bear-about-rape-jokes-rape-culture/
no feminazi group will ever defend the men who do not treat women like sex objects, so they promote rape culture everytime they say a guy is wrong for thinking being nice should get his needs met
Except this “feminazi” group. And almost every other one out there.
Also, nice people are not entitled to sex and/or romance just for being nice. Sorry.
WTF does this mean: no feminazi group will ever defend the men who do not treat women like sex objects,
so they promote rape culture everytime they say a guy is wrong for thinking being nice should get his needs met
The first part is patent nonsense.
The second… what it says is to say that men aren’t entitled to sex is to promote rape culture?
That’s fractally wrong, no, it’s beyond fractally wrong, it’s dumbfounded silence wrong. It’s finding a dromeosaur in your hard-boiled egg wrong. It’s so far beyond wrong as to be indescribably wrong.
What you might be trying to say is that telling men they aren’t entitled to sex for being nice will lead to more rapes; that’s back into the realms of comprehensibly wrong (still wrong, like rooting for the Yankees, or Voting for Bush in 2004, or thinking Pons and Fleischman’s work was legit, and “stifled by the Oil Companies, but at least back in the realm of wrong which can be encompassed with sensible metaphors).
NIce Guys™ aren’t entitled to sex. No one is entitled to sex. Not getting laid does not lead to rape. People choosing to rape leads to rape.
“like rooting for the Yankees”
I…you aren’t…
Mets or Red Sox?
Abominable Industries: I don’t think so. He’s arguing, “there is worse in the world than rape jokes, so get over it”.
I like this a lot better.
Patton Oswalt: On Comedy, Rape Culture and Making Jokes That one actually examines the issues.
Look, if you think “being nice should get his needs met” you DO treat women like sex objects.
Argenti: National League (i.e. Real Baseball, where pitchers have to bat) Dodgers. My second favorite team is tie between who,ever is playing the Fucking Yankees, and whomever is playing the Giants (when they play each other, I am rooting for the Yankees to lose, unless it would be actually beneficial to the Giants standings).
In the AL, I like the Red Stockings, though there is a moderate sentimental attachment to the Indians (who were my grandmothers team. She was at the park for the incredible Game Five of the 1920 World Series
The season Hank Aaron broke Babe Ruth’s Record (off Dodger Pitcher Al Dowing: who pitched an Immaculate Inning in 1967) she watched every Braves Game she could, and we both watching when it happened (though I had no idea it was such a big deal… I was not quite seven).