So “dating” guru Roosh has a post up on his Return of Kings blog by another self-professed dating guru, Alex Matlock, who rates various types of “bad sex” according to the type of female partner who’s involved in them, including such charmingly named types as “The one that tries too much (aka The Disaster)” and “The one that doesn’t move (aka The Starfish or The Doll).”
I expected a good deal of standard-issue manosphere misogyny in Matlock’s list, but I honestly couldn’t make it past his description of what he regards as the second-worst type of female sex partner: “The one that’s scared (aka The Virgin).” Because what he’s describing doesn’t sound so much like “bad sex” as “date rape.”
[TRIGGER WARNING for what follows; emphasis mine.]
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This girl doesn’t necessarily have to be a virgin because she can still act the part many years after she’s popped that priceless cherry. She will usually look at you with fear in her eyes as if she has no idea about what’s going to happen. She gently pushes you away as if she’s not ready for the event and when it does happen she continues to act like it’s the first time. She usually sits in some extremely awkward positions that make you give up and just go missionary. This girl will eventually bust your nut but she’ll surely leave you with a sense of disappointment and/or guilt.
Uh, Mr. Matlock, I’m hoping for everyone’s sake that this is a hypothetical “humorous” scenario you’ve come up with for the sake of this article and not something you’ve been a part of in the actual real world on a regular basis, because, unless you’ve left out that portion of the hypothetical events in which the woman in question clearly and unequivocally consents to having sex with your hypothetical protagonist here, what you’ve just described as “bad sex” (for the hypothetical dude) is actually a description of, well, rape from the point of view of the rapist.
In which case that twinge of guilt your hypothetical protagonist hypothetically feels is probably just the tiny part of his hypothetical self that’s still human reacting to the fact that he JUST (hypothetically) FUCKING RAPED SOMEONE.
MRAs and PUAs and manospherean assholes generally like to pretend that consent is some weird and mysterious thing, but it’s really not. Here’s a hint: if a women looks at you with fear in her eyes and pushes you away all while sitting in a position that makes sex difficult …. all that means NO.
The fact that Matlock — despite those twinges of guilt — still doesn’t regard this as the worst kind of “bad sex” (for the guy) but merely the second-worst adds a certain level of absurdity to the horror.
Given Roosh’s publication of this piece by Matlock, and the fact that he himself has already confessed to committing what would be considered date rape by American standards by having sex with at woman too inebriated to give consent, perhaps it’s time to stop referring to Roosh as a dating guru and to start referring to him as a date rape guru.
I don’t really have anything else to say.
Here, as brain bleach, are some cats with smaller versions of themselves:
Oh my shitfaced God, not this fucking crap again.
Look, you slivering slimenozzle, there is no “honest rape” and “dishonest rape”, there is only rape. Get it through your thick skull that the “level of resistance” is irrelevant (not to mention creepy as hell). Are you honestly saying you’re so thick that you only stop your advances if a woman punches you?
You’re describing rape culture, you sicko. That’s women being at fault for all rape except for the ideal rape where a chaste, conservatively dressed virgin is assaulted by a shadowy villain (who is probably a black man, since misogyny often comes with a large dose of racism), and fights back kicking and screaming. You ignore the fact that women are taught not to be forceful, not to swear, not to be rude, to always give guys their time and attention, and all that traditional gender role shit that misogynists think makes a good woman. Tell me, where exactly is the magical moment when a woman (“girl”, you say, for an extra layer of creepy) is allowed to reject a guy’s advances? If she does it at the start, she’s a hysterical, paranoid maniac who hates men and deserves to be knocked down a peg (“but I’m a nice guy!”). If she does it later, she’s been leading him on and deserves what’s coming to her. You can’t win. A woman can do all the things society teaches her will protect her from rape, and then be raped anyway. Because it’s not about the victim. It’s about the rapist and his massive sense of entitlement that makes him ignore the little things like personal space and consent. Remember that there are men, particularly these PUA types, who learn to recognize and exploit a woman’s indoctrinations. That’s why these date rape gurus deserve all the hate they get.
“Proceeded to have intercourse…” Did you even read that disgusting, vomit-inducing garbage, you illiterate pile of dung? He proceeded to force himself on her. There was no mention of the woman being an active subject in the act. Is it so fucking difficult to understand that sex is not about using another human being as a masturbatory device? If a woman is enthusiastically consenting to sex, you will know. If she isn’t, stop what you’re doing immediately. A sad boner is better than being a fucking rapist.
Jedi hugs to all who want them. I’m going to go and scream until my lungs give out.
See that first sentence where she is afraid because she has no idea what horror awaits?
See that second sentence where she gently pushes him away fearing that she will be beaten into submission?
See that third sentence where she sits in an awkward position so that she does not turn her back to him because she is AFRAID OF HIM?
That is a description of rape. No ifs ands or buts, no qualifiers. A description of the most common method used to rape a woman. Isolation and fear.
Pat is a disgusting human being.
Also, while yes there should be more education about what rape actually is I don’t think that will help people like Pat or the author of the article which is the subject of the OP. I believe they know full well what rape is, and they also know full well that of they did not commit rape sex would not happen. They known full well what they are doing but need to have that shroud of plausible deniability so they can keep going on doing what they are doing. They are both sick fucks. And I’m glad you are calling a spade a spade. The more of us that recognize and do it, the less these sick fucks can get away with their shit.
Patty can swallow a cactus, Legos and maybe some spoiled milk for good measure.
Also that was typed poorly… Typing on mobile device and these assholes pissed me off
I think it was very well typed, Bad_dog …
As opposed to reading into the story to prove she wasn’t, as you were doing earlier? AT BEST, the author has written a description of events that read like rape to quite a few people. At worst, he’s telling people about something he’s experienced, and/or something they can expect to experience. In the absence of an explicit note about the importance of consent or how she’s only pretending to resist, he appears to be telling his audience that it’s just fine to have sex with a woman who is trying to prevent you from having sex with her. What else would you call that?
lolz assfucker butthead insert namd here because name callingz is kewllllzzz
I don’t think anyone here would use “assfucker” as an insult, since most of us don’t feel the need to shame people for their consensual sexual behavior.
Whoops, blockquote fail. This bit
was from Pat.
@bad_dog
I do agree that guys like Pat are beyond help, but the more education there is, the less plausible deniability there will be. As well as, I do believe guys like pat and the guy in the OP (with willful ignorance rather than just regular old ignorance) are in the minority.
If you want to see uncensored opinions of the article above from the point of view of the other side of the debate, you’ll have to go to the site in question. The comments are much too “offensive” for the sensitivities of the commenters here.
Oh Snap! I guess we’ve been told. After all, we’ve never seen anyone making excuses for rape before. It’s not like people don’t come here to say the same thing.
Tell me, oh sage of the intarwebs, what will I learn there; which my blinkered self is hiding from by not diving into another cesspool.
(because I’m sure, as one who did a career in the Army that my, “sensitivities” aren’t what you think they are.)
Hahahaha you guys are so edgy. Relax. I get it. It emotionally gets you all riled up. The orginal post was taken out of context. The girl playing the virgin was only pretending to be coy. She never once told him to stop. It wasn’t a defense of rape. Go read the original post instead of frothing over a misread statement.
Oh, so you have her side of the story.
Wait, if you look at the OP (and it was accurately quoted here) you see what you have is his self-serving version of events.
Why are your delicate sensibilities all riled up at rape being called rape?
My issue is misrepresentation
Mine too, which you do right here: . The “virgin” means a girl who pretends to not want to have sexual intercourse
Which you know to be the case because they guy talking about how “boring” the sex was with a woman who had, “fear in her eyes” and was “pushing him away”, was faking it.
Riddle me this, brainiac. If she was really into it, and looking for him to be all dommy… why was he bored with the sex? Why didn’t she get into it? She really wanted it, right? it was just a game. She was consenting, right?
Maybe your hero wasn’t being a reliable narrator Maybe she wasn’t faking it when she indicated she didn’t want sex.. He’s not talking about one person being boring, he’s saying women who are scared, and pushing you away, as a class are lousy lays. The reasonable person will assume the only reason it’s a broad group is (drum roll) they didn’t want to have sex
Which makes your hero a rapist. and you a rape apologist.
You can keep calling me “a rape apologist”, but since I am not advocating rape, you can stop.
I thought you didn’t care what we said? is someone getting upset? Perhaps a nice cup of tea and a little lie down would help.
You aren’t listening.
But we are. You keep telling yourself that she, “really wanted it”, if that makes it easier for you to sleep at night.
We’ll keep calling it what it is, rape. If that makes you nervous… good. Because if you keep pretending, “it’s all a game,” the more people who call it what it is (rape; which makes people who say, “she really wanted it” rapist) then we can only hope that; should you rape someone (which I’m willing to lay odds you’ve already done, which is why you are so hot to trot on repeating the lies about, “the other side of the story; when her side [which is the actual other side of the story] isn’t being told) she will file a complaint, the DA will file charges and a jury will listen to the details and return a verdict of guilty.
Which is what rapists deserve.
BDP: So let me get this straight?
You know my position better than I do?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I’m sitting here telling you I’m not a rape apologist,
1: You are unclear on what rape apologia is.
2: YOu are in denial of what your position is.
My money is on 2.
Hey, ill own the name where it fits, racist supremacist etc.
But not this time.
Perhaps rape apologist cuts close to the bone? Perhaps it’s more than just apology….
The burden of proof is on gou to prove it was a rape, slick.
No where in the article was rape advocated for or claimed. In the story the girl did have sex with him, and it was not stated it was non consensual.
Oh.. the rapist didn’t confess to rape when he was boasting about his “prowess”. That must totes mean she was all eager and shit.
Or not.
Katz, do you allow your children to act the way she’s been acting this entire time?
I let my kids act like marie. When they act as you are acting (failing to listen to the adults correcting their errors, engaging in pointlessly rude behavior, outright lies about what was said, and what things mean), I give them a time out (and “my kids” are soldiers. Old enough to enlist, but oh my god, so young. But smarter than you are. They know when to shut up and listen to their betters).
Rape apologist is not a description of me.
Yes, yes it is.
It’s only an allegory to show token resistance.
Oh… so it’s an advocacy of rape. I stand corrected, you aren’t an apologist for rapists, you actively encourage people to commit rape.
That’s so much better.
Her Telling me I remind her of a rapist is ok to you guys?
Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck…
I just had a lightbulb moment about why these kinds ot guys fight this conversation tooth and nail. They know, on some level, that having sex with someone who’s scared and cringing away from you is rape, but they also know that historically it’s always been a kind of rape that it’s very easy to get away with. Over the last 30 years or so the public conversation has started to shift* towards acknowledging those situations as rape. Once that process is complete, they won’t be able to get away with those rapes as easily any more, which they see (correctly, for once) as an erosion of their privilege, and which is clearly outrageous because sad penis, why should women’s decisions be taken seriously, and so on. It’s one of the most basic scenarios in which the question of whether or not women’s thoughts, feeling, and wishes count as much as men’s is weighed and decided upon by culture, and they see the public gradually shifting in the direction of “yes, women count”. Which is why they’re choosing this hill to die on – they’re hoping to stop that slow, gradual process of women’s voices starting to matter right here.
*Obviously this process is happening at different rates in different places, and there’s a lot of backsliding, but for those of us who can remember how people talked about rape 20 or 30 years ago, things have definitely changed.
@woman going far far away from mras (wgffa)
Welcome, since you’re delurking. And jedi hugs if you want them.
Yes, they don’t want anyone, especially their victims, looking at what happens and recognising it as rape, do they? Keep women blaming themselves, keep them thinking rape is only the stranger-in-the-bushes (because you notice from this example that even when it’s the “frightened virgin pushing him away” situation it isn’t rape). Make sure the definition of rape is vanishingly small, so you can rape with impunity and nobody, not the law, not the victims, not society, will recognise it as such … just the rapists, because however they weasel out of using the word, rape is what they want to do.
Seconding the welcome, wgffa!
The focus is also obvious in how they argue about rape in general. It’s always an attempt to negotiate or specify the exact degree of boundary crossing that men are legally allowed to get away with, rather than an attempt to figure out how to avoid raping people.
Yes, and they want the boudaries drawn wider and wider in their favour. If they were honest (ha) they’d say outright that they don’t think women have the right to refuse them at all, in any way, ever. Even then, as this post makes obvious, they’d get their added thrill from complaining about their victims being “bad in bed”.
@wgffa, Welcome! Please enjoy your complimentary welcome package.
@Cassandra- That is a very insightful comment, and it gives me hope for the future. Thank you!
@cloudiah, kittehserf, Marie —
Ooh, I get SCENTED FUCKING CANDLES and everything! Never thought they would be for me. Excuse me while I sit in this hard chair for a moment.
Also, I am secretly a bunch of ferrets, in a suit. If you squint, you can rearrange my/our acronym to read “guffaw”?
In seriousness, as for jedi hugs: thank you. Really. I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir, but even once somebody’s ‘okay’ (like I am, basically) the after-effects of having your personhood* violated never really go away. That’s why it’s so infuriating when these wankers say it’s something women (and not just women, but mostly women) 1. make up, 2. are overreacting to, or 3. do for funsies.
* To stave off a deliberate misreading: being penetrated isn’t in and of itself a personhood violation — this isn’t a “good girls”/”bad girls” ;purity’ issue I’m talking about. It’s the immense betrayal involved in having another person, usually a person with greater social capital than you, override your own will and desires by imposing theirs onto you. In a way which can cause you great physical pain and result in months or years of physical pain afterwards (whether through disease, injury, pregnancy, pregnancy-related injury/illness, etc). This violation and betrayal is what leaves such deep emotional scars. Oh, but pretty much no one will believe you when you say it happened and it hurt you. Maybe some people will, but there will always be those people out there who say you asked for it, or it was all just a mistake, or you probably just made it up for some demented reason. And those people are louder, because there are more of them. They might be your own friends and family. They are definitely your lawmakers and law enforcers. Hell, even some of the more sympathetic people now think you are broken and “crazy” because of what happened to you. So enjoy that lifetime of lingering reminders about your greatest helplessness and the time(s) when your vulnerability was exploited for someone else’s gain!
For anyone who still might be confused: *THIS is why there are feminists. THIS is why we are feminists. THIS is why we care so damn much.* It’s not over some petty grievances stemming from penis envy, or whatever the hell these twisted MRA bastards make up.
Guffawing Ferrets is my band name now.
Seriously – standing ovation for that. It should be quoted back at every idiot who claims not to know what the deal is with rape. I don’t mean the apologists/advocates like we’ve seen on this thread: they’re rapists and beyond redemption as far as I’m concerned. But for those who might be speaking in good faith, that’s the sort of thing they need to read.
Welcome, wgffa! ^_^
Oh, and that voluntarily mute guy sounds like someone I’d love to hang out with. =P
Thanks, kittehserf =) My pen was forged in the fires of rage and my tongue is tipped with pure articulated anger, or something. Actually, I think it’s more that my ladyfriend is a graduate student of public health and I’m a writer.
Aaliyah — yeah, he’s a special sort. Genuinely charming, without being at all fake. The sort of person whose entire way of being is a singularity which would cause MRA/PUA/MTGOW types to implode. Or at least shake up their worldviews a little and confuse them for a minute. One would only hope.
Also, in response to some of the idiocy from the other thread: were I in a jungle with this guy (leaving aside the question of why we’d be in a jungle, and additionally considering that he’s scrawny and not a tiger-fighting type to begin with) and he were to get sick or hurt … my response wouldn’t be ANGER. My response would be “holy shit, I really need to care for my friend so we don’t BOTH die out here!” Because ‘getting angry at the person you supposedly wholly depend on for survival’ doesn’t actually make sense, especially if you care about this person at all.
Maybe I am a biologically failed woman? Maybe all this feminism has corrupted my survival instincts? Or … maybe these people have never had an actual friendship in their lives, especially not with the opposite sex. And maybe they’re just so full of shit that they’re swimming in it.
I’m inclined towards options C. and D.
Definitely C and D. Plus they project that onto everyone else (with the possible exception of the imaginary dudebros they profess to admire). The idea that people care about other people is waaaay too much for them. The idea that female other people do so just produces the Dummy Spit of Denial.
Meep! Don’t know if I should call you wgffa or ferrets or what! In any case, more Jedi hugs from me, and damned did you hit that nail on the head. My two cents? This —
” Maybe some people will, but there will always be those people out there who say you asked for it, or it was all just a mistake, or you probably just made it up for some demented reason. And those people are louder, because there are more of them. They might be your own friends and family. They are definitely your lawmakers and law enforcers. Hell, even some of the more sympathetic people now think you are broken and “crazy” because of what happened to you”
All gets real “interesting” if you actually are crazy (now reporting from the mentally ill corner of the room…Argenti!!) Must’ve made it up cuz nuts, must be exaggerating cuz nuts, are you taking your meds? (Lol, 5 min ago cuz nighttime meds at 5 am is totally how I roll) // only crazy because of it so get over it and sane-up (is there a term for that?)
Yeah, I’m babbling, and EA said this better anyways, back in 2 with that.
Combine what you said, with this and stir. Resulting concoction is ever so fun.
And wtf people, it’s 5 am, what are you yelling about?!