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creepy irony alert men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny narcissism playing the victim PUA rape rape culture rhymes with roosh victim blaming

Dating guru Alex Matlock: Sex with women who fear you and push you away might not be much fun

sayingno
Protip: This does not mean “yes.”

So “dating” guru Roosh has a post up on his Return of Kings blog by another self-professed dating guru, Alex Matlock, who rates various types of “bad sex” according to the type of female partner who’s involved in them, including such charmingly named types as “The one that tries too much (aka The Disaster)” and “The one that doesn’t move (aka The Starfish or The Doll).”

I expected a good deal of standard-issue manosphere misogyny in Matlock’s list, but I honestly couldn’t make it past his description of what he regards as the second-worst type of female sex partner: “The one that’s scared (aka The Virgin).” Because what he’s describing doesn’t sound so much like “bad sex” as “date rape.”

[TRIGGER WARNING for what follows; emphasis mine.]
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This girl doesn’t necessarily have to be a virgin because she can still act the part many years after she’s popped that priceless cherry. She will usually look at you with fear in her eyes as if she has no idea about what’s going to happen. She gently pushes you away as if she’s not ready for the event and when it does happen she continues to act like it’s the first time. She usually sits in some extremely awkward positions that make you give up and just go missionary. This girl will eventually bust your nut but she’ll surely leave you with a sense of disappointment and/or guilt.

Uh, Mr. Matlock, I’m hoping for everyone’s sake that this is a hypothetical “humorous” scenario you’ve come up with for the sake of this article and not something you’ve been a part of in the actual real world on a regular basis, because, unless you’ve left out that portion of the hypothetical events in which the woman in question clearly and unequivocally consents to having sex with your hypothetical protagonist here, what you’ve just described as “bad sex” (for the hypothetical dude) is actually a description of, well, rape from the point of view of the rapist.

In which case that twinge of guilt your hypothetical protagonist hypothetically feels is probably just the tiny part of his hypothetical self that’s still human reacting to the fact that he JUST (hypothetically) FUCKING RAPED SOMEONE.

MRAs and PUAs and manospherean assholes generally like to pretend that consent is some weird and mysterious thing, but it’s really not. Here’s a hint: if a women looks at you with fear in her eyes and pushes you away all while sitting in a position that makes sex difficult …. all that means NO.

The fact that Matlock — despite those twinges of guilt — still doesn’t regard this as the worst kind of “bad sex” (for the guy) but merely the second-worst adds a certain level of absurdity to the horror.

Given Roosh’s publication of this piece by Matlock, and the fact that he himself has already confessed to committing what would be considered date rape by American standards by having sex with at woman too inebriated to give consent, perhaps it’s time to stop referring to Roosh as a dating guru and to start referring to him as a date rape guru.

I don’t really have anything else to say.

Here, as brain bleach, are some cats with smaller versions of themselves:

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Marie
Marie
8 years ago

Seconding everything Gametime just said.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Ah, abuse. Because confronting the fact that some men are utterly without options (unlike practically any woman) is unwanted contact with reality.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

So 90% of women are a$$holes. Good to know.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Wait, I knew that already.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

Eurosabra translation time:

Because confronting the fact that some men are utterly without options

Not getting laid is horrible! Deeply horrible! Teh horriblest! We will all die of bluuueeee ballllllssss1!!!!!!11

(unlike practically any woman)

I’m a sexist dipshit who doesn’t live on earth.

) is unwanted contact with reality.

Along with everything else I don’t understand, add ‘reality’ to the list.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

No, you’re trying to dictate what my experience was to me.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

I am beginning to suspect this dialogue is somewhat unproductive.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@Eurosabra

I’ll bite. How? How am I dictating your experience? How is ‘not getting laid’ some terrible catastrophe?

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

I am beginning to suspect this dialogue is somewhat unproductive.

Don’t worry, cupcake, I knew it wouldn’t be productive when you showed up.

cloudiah
8 years ago

90% of the women you choose to approach are ableist assholes, if that is really the reason they are rejecting you. (I suspect there is more to it than that, as I said above.) If I recall, you like the Hollywood club scene, so you know, that’s kind of the right place to go if you’re looking for someone who is pretty shallow.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

Cry harder dude. Your problem is not your disability. Since you can lie about it, you’re not the Elephant Man. Your visage does not activate the shock centers of people’s brains. It apparently doesn’t impede your ability to have a relationship.

Your unfortunate personality, on the other hand…

And 90% of people in general are assholes. You thought women were special in that regard?

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

You think that people who barely know me have some magic douche detector, when in fact I’ve seem previously-smiling women turn tail and run because I am limping (slightly) as I walk over to them. So, yeah, you’re dictating my experience, and there’s no point in a discussion.

Fade
8 years ago

Shorter Manboobz: “Men (and only men) must reveal their most serious defects before their positive qualities have had time to be revealed. It’s only HONEST.”

Okay, I haven’t caught up so I may have missed something, but why would you want to stay with someone who hates PWD or thinks that they can’t be romantic partners or w/e.

If I told a guy (or girl, I’m bi) I had fibromyalgia, and they said “Okay, I’m gone”, I’d be like “don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out”, not “NOOOOO LET US STILL SEX”

Ignoring everything else dispicable that you’ve said, which is a lot to ignore.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Since when is Planet Hollywood “Earth”? And If I say that several venues are the often the same, you’ll just attribute it to some putative inherent evil on my part.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

when in fact I’ve seem previously-smiling women turn tail and run because I am limping (slightly) as I walk over to them.

As much as I doubt this happened, if they were running away because you were limping it probably wasn’t a good idea to date them anyway.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

Since when is Planet Hollywood “Earth”? And If I say that several venues are the often the same, you’ll just attribute it to some putative inherent evil on my part.

You did not mention planet hollywood there, so I was assuming you were making a big generalization, since it already was a big generalization.

I don’t know if I’d attribute it to evil intent though, probably some to self-centered-ness and a good amount of confirmation bias. With a heavy dose of sexism.

wguffaw-ferrets
wguffaw-ferrets
8 years ago

Argenti: You can call me whatever you want! After all, I’m just a bunch of ferrets in a suit (and by ‘suit’ I actually mean ‘Canadian tux’).

Also, I get you on the “crazy” thing. In addition to my adult traumas, I was molested in childhood and have lived my entire life with PTSD. I seriously did not know until recently that not everyone experiences a constant sense of anxiety and being on edge. Of course, because my family had a lot of nasty ideas about sexual assault victims, even child ones, I was effectively trapped in a state of silence that turned into denial until I reached adulthood. Before I was able to enter therapy with a competent professional, I didn’t even know how to vocalize the experience of molestation, much less untangle the shitshow it had made of my sense of self and understand that what happened was capital-W ‘wrong.’ I was pretty fucked up and no one knew why, so I got a lot of vague diagnoses that were iffy at best, but which still totally wrecked any chance of my being taken seriously by anyone until I was in my early 20s.
A combination of good therapy with a sexual-assault specialist, a regimen of anti-anxiety drugs, hefty amounts of consciousness-raising, and the loving support of Ladyfriend have helped me become an outwardly ‘normal’ person, but I’m still legally disabled and I still have PTSD — which, to most people who hear about it, means I can’t be trusted with basically anything. Including when I say “I was raped” or “my body hurts” (one rapist dislocated my spine and I’m only *just now* getting physical therapy for it three years later) or “I’m sick and am not making that up.”

So, back to thread: it’s extra “crazy”-making for me to read about fools like Warren Farrell not only apologizing but ADVOCATING for rape and child sexual assault — because, hey, instead of feeling sad and terrified all the time as my male family members were alternately passing me amongst themselves, mocking and tormenting me for it, telling each other I was a “little tease”, and lying to my mother and grandmother about what they were doing, I should have just embraced the opportunity to explore my sexuality! Or something.
Except NO. FUCK THAT NOISE. What happened to me and what happens to other victims is WRONG and pretending to ourselves that it isn’t will never magically make it RIGHT. Also? Pointing out that victims are victims IS NOT A BAD THING and it certainly does not in and of itself “victimize” anyone. (I understand that some people like to say ‘survivor’, and that’s their call, but it’s a slightly different story.)

And now we have yet another regular asshole apologist claiming that rape is just something feminists make too big of a deal out of. To which I say, on behalf of myself and all my friends who have been hurt in this way (including, I’m pretty sure, the selective mute guy): Kindly go fuck yourself. I’m not sorry.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Eurosabra, only people who know you, and who are willing to be ruthlessly honest with you, can tell you why you’re so unsuccessful.

All we can say is that you seem like a total douchenozzle on the internet. You seem to like hearing that, since we pretty much say that to you each time you’re here. You know exactly what you’re going to get here, so you really shouldn’t complain — it’s not like we “mildly gaslighted” you by pretending to be nice to asshat PUAs the first few times you stopped by.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Fade: Cue almost a full decade of closing doors. It’s magic, the combination of being SICK and being MALE makes almost ALL women immediately leave. I assume I’ll be alone in navigating the health system should I get really sick and have made plans (and stockpiled documents and medications) to do so. (I don’t have any surviving family.) Have you come to similar conclusions and made similar plans, or do you have a support system, and have you had partners who are willing to act as such? In my experience, that’s RARE.

Fade
8 years ago

Omigosh

People with disabilities are oppressed b/c ableism.

But men are NOT oppressed based on gender.

FFS. It is veeeeeerrrrrrry simple. Not being able to get laid is not oppression.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@wguffaw-ferrets

That sounds horrible 🙁 More jedi hugs, if you want them.

@Eurocreep

It’s magic, the combination of being SICK and being MALE makes almost ALL women immediately leave.

Now that I know is your confirmation bias.

Gametime
8 years ago

Ah, abuse. Because confronting the fact that some men are utterly without options (unlike practically any woman) is unwanted contact with reality.

Because obviously there’s no such thing as women with disabilities or fat women or women who for whatever other reason are not considered conventionally attractive. No, every woman in the world is able to attain sex at the drop of a hat. Obviously.

So 90% of women are a$$holes. Good to know.

Meet Eurosabra, the PUA so prolific he has apparently been rejected by 90% of women.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Because reality keeps confirming that that is the case.

Gametime
8 years ago

It’s magic, the combination of being SICK and being MALE makes almost ALL women immediately leave.

This is starting to get into “women are shallow sluts and always think I’m repulsive because of my lazy eye” territory.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

The more Eurosabra talks the more I suspect it is just his repulsive behavior pushing women away, not his limp.

wguffaw-ferrets
wguffaw-ferrets
8 years ago

Also I posted that longpost to be very clear about what the lingering after-effects of rape trauma can be and what it might entail, for anyone who might still be confused. This is shit that can fuck up someone’s ENTIRE LIFE, and go figure, sitting down in the middle of the street and crying (due to physical pain, poverty, etc) has pretty much only ever gotten me arrested. Or at the very least looked at funny. Somehow I feel I’m not alone in that experience.

I guess, since reading through Eurosob’s shit, I can add another reason: To illustrate that disabled people CAN form loving, stable relationships with others (even though it can be hard for a multitude of reasons). Not everyone has been willing to put up with stuff like my night terrors and the fact that I was unable to get out of bed for like a year while doctors were still telling me to just take more ibuprofen and most of my friends thought I had Lyme disease or cancer — but those people are better suited somewhere else anyway.

Of course, Eurosob isn’t exactly arguing out of good faith, so it’s not like any of this is going to matter to anyone other than everyone else who’s already said this exact same thing a hundred or more times before.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Who’s to say he was wrong? It’s just that it might be more productive for him to behave AS IF that weren’t the case, and try to coast on self-induced good feelings.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Sending hugs and kittens to wguffaw-ferrets, if they’re wanted. Or whatever animal/vegetable/mineral you like.

eumenidis
eumenidis
8 years ago
Reply to  titianblue

More likely they just refuse to see, & afterward take Matlock’s view that there was something wrong with her for not bestirring herself to give him a good time. Such guys are probably used to ignoring disgust, contempt, & dislike on people’s faces.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

Because obviously there’s no such thing as women with disabilities or fat women or women who for whatever other reason are not considered conventionally attractive.

Holy shit. I’m all of those things.

*disappears*

wguffaw-ferrets
wguffaw-ferrets
8 years ago

Thx, cloudiah and kittehserf! It was kind of brutal and in hindsight I probably shoulda put a trigger warning on that comment.

One of my purposes in life is to talk openly about this kind of thing, so that others in similar positions will hopefully recognize elements of their own experiences and feel less alone. And to make it very, very clear that we still need feminism — even in this uber-enlightened post-patriarchy! (/sarcasm) The shit I wrote about didn’t happen on the streets of Dickensian London or behind the scenes of a 1950s mental hospital a la “American Horror Story”: it happened in the good old USA less than 30 years ago. Similar things are happening all over the world right now, to this day, and will keep happening until we can somehow manage to short-circuit a culture in which some human beings (predominantly women, children, LGBT people, etc) are presumed to be open targets for others’ sexual gratification and abuse.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Come back, Nepenthe, come back!

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

*ethereal voice, as if from a dream* I caaaaaan’t! I doooon’t exist!

Aaliyah
8 years ago

I’m so sorry to hear that that happened to you, wguffaw-ferrets. Hugs if they’re wanted. =[

Also? Pointing out that victims are victims IS NOT A BAD THING and it certainly does not in and of itself “victimize” anyone. (I understand that some people like to say ‘survivor’, and that’s their call, but it’s a slightly different story.)

This. I hate it when anti-feminists go like “Feminism is bad because it paints all women as perpetual victims!” Aside from the fact that that’s a straw man, acknowledging someone’s victimhood and having empathy for them are things that sexual assault victims appreciate, especially since so many of them are branded as liars and attention-seekers (or “overly sensitive”).

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

But no, I don’t accept your framing of that as coercion and I think if you inflate it to rape that’s going way too far, as feminists so often do. Anyway I’m sure surfacing again here has just given everyone license to pin~ata me again.

Oh, fuck you, Eurosabra. I’m tired of you sleazing up the joint while simultaneously trying to get our sympathy. It’s between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.

We pinata you because you’re disgusting. You said the other day there were some things you wanted to get off your chest, so bring it, candyass. Put up or shut up forever.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

Eurosabra, I’d be willing to bet your limp is the most attractive thing about you. If you think lying to someone to get them into bed is okay, then yeah, you are being manipulative, which is fucking close to coercive in my book.

“Coercion: 1. To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.” (Free Online Dictionary)

Straight out of the PUA handbook.

“Gaslighting is a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.”
(Wikipedia)

Tell me again how using this to con an unwilling woman into being fucked by you isn’t rape?

And once again, WHY is it so important to get your orgasm in someone else’s body? WHY does this matter more than the fact that you’re using her as a thing, a sex doll? Why the hell don’t you buy one of those things and be done with it?

Because none of this shit will cure your loneliness. Objectifying people just isolates you even more, apart from the harm it does them. You’re digging yourself deeper into that hole, y’know. Being a manipulative, lying creep is what’s keeping you alone, not being male, not your disability.

And frankly I think it serves you fucking well right. Instant karma and all that.

wguffaw-ferrets
wguffaw-ferrets
8 years ago

Well, thanks for running this space, David — and if you think it would be appropriate, feel free to add a Trigger Warning to my longpost! This shit is just so normal for me that I sometimes forget it’s the opposite of “normal” normal and can be pretty horrifying to most other people.

pecunium
8 years ago

Tally: Howie: You were linking me to my self-assesment which I made in support for my candidacy for the great TOTY awards. I don’t get what you mean by that.

Which is why you are a lousy troll, and a pathetic joke.

pecunium
8 years ago

Tally: ok, why don’t you just say that from the start so it’s understandable

He did. We understood it. Again, it’s why you are a crappy troll. To troll well, you need to have a mastery of subtext, so you can make insinuations, get people reacting to things they didn’t notice at the conscious level.

To excel, you need to be able to exploit it while appearing to be seriously saying something else; so you can “explain” what you meant, and further roil the waters.

This requires brains (and perhaps education), as well as rhetorical skills you don’t possess.

pecunium
8 years ago

Bostonian: I mean, who would want to have a relationship or sex with someone with a disability? Especially one who told the truth about it?

All my partners, since I became disabled.

As you say, it’s not that hard. My partners have also revealed their disabilities to me (several have significant allergies, which makes cooking/going out different, even difficult, one is dirt poor as well; so we either have to go to less expensive places, or I should offer to cover; at least part of, the tab, one has fibromyalgia, and a desire for children; so the conversations we had before we had sex included that she was only using condoms, and if there was a failure she was keeping the child; I could be involved, or not, if there was a pregnancy [a we are a past tense item; but the fibro is still in the present tense])

Remarkably, none of these were enough to make us stop being interested in each other. I’ve had far more in the way of negative reaction to letting people know I am/was a soldier. That has killed some promising relationships dead in their tracks.

But that’s ok, because that’s part of who I am too, and I have no interest in someone who doesn’t want me as I am.

pecunium
8 years ago

Eurosabra: So basically you think my lying about my own disability status is coercion. That’s unreasonable in the extreme.

Way to pretend to miss the point. It’s where you admit to gaslighting women, as in your admission that you lie about your disabilities to women who recognise them.

Why should we believe you when you say you limit the things you lie about?

About men dictating to women the women’s experiences, I mean..

Compare and contrast:

Ah, abuse. Because confronting the fact that some men are utterly without options (unlike practically any woman) is unwanted contact with reality.

Hypocrisy, without even an intervening comment.

You think that people who barely know me have some magic douche detector, when in fact I’ve seem previously-smiling women turn tail and run because I am limping (slightly) as I walk over to them. So, yeah, you’re dictating my experience, and there’s no point in a discussion.

You are failing to get the point. People are saying that they have a very different experience. I’ve been limping (and skeletally underweight; as well as twitchy as all fuck with low-grade maladjustment to being outside a combat zone), and I haven’t had women I was approaching “turn tail and run” when I approached them.

So while I am willing to grant this is your experience, I am (from my experience) not willing to attribute it to the limp.

Can you appreciate there is a difference in those two things? Or is your self-valorisation too great to postulate that perhaps our experience of similar events is somewhat probative, though not conclusively dispostive?

Fade: Cue almost a full decade of closing doors. It’s magic, the combination of being SICK and being MALE makes almost ALL women immediately leave

Hermn… lessee… I was disabled just a bit more than ten years ago (the actual diagnosis was two weeks ago tomorrow). Let me see how many women have rejected me in the manner you describe…

None. And eight of those years were in LA, SLO, and SF. Hunh. It’s almost as if this universal constant you are talking about ain’t so universal.

Maybe the problem isn’t women, but some aspect of the choices you are making. Perhaps Planet Hollywood isn’t the best place for you to look for partners.

Because reality keeps confirming that that is the case.

Nope. It seems that being Eurosabra means a 90 percent rejection rate when honest; and somewhat better rate when lying, what’s the present ratio, 50:1, 70:1? At any rate you are averring it’s not worse than 89:1. Game is so helpful.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

” Game is so helpful.”

::mops coffee off desk::

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

wguffaw-ferrets — new meds-psych today and I am fresh out of spoons, but I still want to thank you for that and offer more Jedi hugs if they’re welcome.

Also, “kindly go fuck yourself”? Whee! Someone else who prefixes it with “kindly”!

Tracy
8 years ago

It’s magic, the combination of being SICK and being MALE makes almost ALL women immediately leave.

@Eurosadly – do you have any close friends in your life who could give you some honest feedback about your approach (‘mild gaslighting’, etc – please to describe) with women? Because seriously, there’s more going on (as everyone here has told you). If the vast majority of women aren’t interested, it ain’t your disability (which you said is a limp?)

My dad is short, and has a prosthetic hand. He also went grey and lost most of his hair in his early twenties. He met my (raven-haired, UK mod bombshell – this was 1970) mum while grey, bald, short and sporting a pretty groovy hook-hand.

They divorced when I was 14 – not because he was short, grey, bald and down a hand, but because he was having a torrid affair (with the woman he is now married to – long, long story, it’s all good now)

My mum re-married an awesome guy who happens to have a limp (hey!) because he had polio as a kid. He’s battling lymphoma now, and TOTES AMAZING she hasn’t up and left the guy for being sick while male.

Friend of mine with a brain injury and a limp (hey!) got married. Another friend of mine with epilepsy got married. WHILE SICK AND MALE, whatistheworldcomingto. My brother-in-law has learning disabilities. Another friend of mine is morbidly obese and married to a woman who loves him.

In addition to being sick/disabled while male, all of these fellows also happen to be nice, genuine, fun, caring (the list goes on) people.

In other words, cry us a fucking river, toots. Plenty of IRL examples of people with disabilities, or who are sick while male, not only dating but having successful long term relationships. This may or may not lead you to believe that perhaps, maybe, possibly your lack of success may have something to do with… not your disablility?

Kittehserf
8 years ago

::reads Tracy’s comment::

Whistles

Applause

Cheers

pecunium
8 years ago

Friend of mine is getting toward deaf as a stump (his hearing aids have to be turned up so high his voice echoes in his throat from them), and has a prosthetic nose (life as a gardener at the LA Arboretum).

Women don’t flee him.

Bostonian
Bostonian
8 years ago

And Tracy provides several examples of people with disabilities that cause them to limp having strong, healthy relationships! Also pecuinum, right there with his experience!
So limping, in and of itself, is not really the barrier you pretend it is, Eurosabra.
Now, these people with relationships might be looking in different environments, i.e., not clubs, where people may have a more ableist bias than other places, but seriously, getting laid through lying is gross and rapey at best.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ David

If you want to take the basic ideas and make a post out of them then go ahead, but not a direct quote with my nym on it, please. Too many creepy, creepy people read your posts (but not the comments in most cases).

talacaris
talacaris
8 years ago

Pecs: “Which is why you are a lousy troll, and a pathetic joke.”
“Now youu’re mean again

” To troll well, you need to have a mastery of subtext, so you can make insinuations, get people reacting to things they didn’t notice at the conscious level.”
This is interesting, why people are reacting like that. This means you can deceive people to believe falsehoods by speaking technical truths all the time. Almost perfect with gooddeniability afterwards. Wouldn’t this be a great asset for a con artist or a spin doctor and where can you study this skill. Are there online courses?

“This requires brains (and perhaps education), as well as rhetorical skills you don’t possess.”

And some meanness again.. 🙂