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creepy irony alert men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny narcissism playing the victim PUA rape rape culture rhymes with roosh victim blaming

Dating guru Alex Matlock: Sex with women who fear you and push you away might not be much fun

sayingno
Protip: This does not mean “yes.”

So “dating” guru Roosh has a post up on his Return of Kings blog by another self-professed dating guru, Alex Matlock, who rates various types of “bad sex” according to the type of female partner who’s involved in them, including such charmingly named types as “The one that tries too much (aka The Disaster)” and “The one that doesn’t move (aka The Starfish or The Doll).”

I expected a good deal of standard-issue manosphere misogyny in Matlock’s list, but I honestly couldn’t make it past his description of what he regards as the second-worst type of female sex partner: “The one that’s scared (aka The Virgin).” Because what he’s describing doesn’t sound so much like “bad sex” as “date rape.”

[TRIGGER WARNING for what follows; emphasis mine.]
.
.
.
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This girl doesn’t necessarily have to be a virgin because she can still act the part many years after she’s popped that priceless cherry. She will usually look at you with fear in her eyes as if she has no idea about what’s going to happen. She gently pushes you away as if she’s not ready for the event and when it does happen she continues to act like it’s the first time. She usually sits in some extremely awkward positions that make you give up and just go missionary. This girl will eventually bust your nut but she’ll surely leave you with a sense of disappointment and/or guilt.

Uh, Mr. Matlock, I’m hoping for everyone’s sake that this is a hypothetical “humorous” scenario you’ve come up with for the sake of this article and not something you’ve been a part of in the actual real world on a regular basis, because, unless you’ve left out that portion of the hypothetical events in which the woman in question clearly and unequivocally consents to having sex with your hypothetical protagonist here, what you’ve just described as “bad sex” (for the hypothetical dude) is actually a description of, well, rape from the point of view of the rapist.

In which case that twinge of guilt your hypothetical protagonist hypothetically feels is probably just the tiny part of his hypothetical self that’s still human reacting to the fact that he JUST (hypothetically) FUCKING RAPED SOMEONE.

MRAs and PUAs and manospherean assholes generally like to pretend that consent is some weird and mysterious thing, but it’s really not. Here’s a hint: if a women looks at you with fear in her eyes and pushes you away all while sitting in a position that makes sex difficult …. all that means NO.

The fact that Matlock — despite those twinges of guilt — still doesn’t regard this as the worst kind of “bad sex” (for the guy) but merely the second-worst adds a certain level of absurdity to the horror.

Given Roosh’s publication of this piece by Matlock, and the fact that he himself has already confessed to committing what would be considered date rape by American standards by having sex with at woman too inebriated to give consent, perhaps it’s time to stop referring to Roosh as a dating guru and to start referring to him as a date rape guru.

I don’t really have anything else to say.

Here, as brain bleach, are some cats with smaller versions of themselves:

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eumenidis
eumenidis
8 years ago
Reply to  Tulgey Logger

You’re dead right about that, such people can’t be trusted to be either accurate, logical, or consistent about anything, & esp. not anything that affects their self-interests.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

I think we’ve touched on this before–MRAs as a group spend a hell of a lot of time talking about rape.

And Cassandra hits it out of the park.

I just had a lightbulb moment about why these kinds ot guys fight this conversation tooth and nail. They know, on some level, that having sex with someone who’s scared and cringing away from you is rape, but they also know that historically it’s always been a kind of rape that it’s very easy to get away with.

Once that process is complete, they won’t be able to get away with those rapes as easily any more, which they see (correctly, for once) as an erosion of their privilege, and which is clearly outrageous because sad penis, why should women’s decisions be taken seriously, and so on.

It’s why we call them the abusers’ lobby, after all–their other big bugaboo is dometic violence, where they are bound and determined to stop people from acknowledging that it’s a big problem.

The abusers’ and rapists’ lobby. The MRM.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

BUUUUUT THEY ARREEEEEN’T A HAAAAATE GROOOOOUUPPP AAAAAAAAAAA

titianblue
titianblue
8 years ago

Perhaps MRAs are so focussed on their overwhelming love for themselves and their boners that they don’t notice the hatred …

talacaris
talacaris
8 years ago

What’s the deal with legos?? Legos don’t hurt to step on, that is a fact..

Bostonian
Bostonian
8 years ago

You need to do research then, with your bare feet.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

I mean basically they’re telling everyone this is consensual non-consent kink while taking consent as a given.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

No, asshole, it’s rape. Fuck off, Eurocreep.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

I described what they were telling people. It’s obvious what it IS.

talacaris
talacaris
8 years ago

“You need to do research then, with your bare feet”

DDone and Conclusion Not hurting, except maybe a bit if stepping on it with the heel, but not for the rest of areas under the foot.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Yes, that’s what you said.

The problem is the subtext and the utterly creepy things you’ve said here before.

Gee, I can’t imagine why with your great track record here hellkell might say that to you. Hmm. What a mystery for the ages!

Pro-tip: if you want to put some distance between the way you live your life and the things these people say and do, it’s going to take more than a few words.

That’s all.

katz
8 years ago

Marie and Aaliyah: Don’t use that tone with me! Do as I say, not as I do! When I was your age, it was…the mid-2000s.

talacaris
talacaris
8 years ago

whatis subtext & why does it matter???
🙂 🙂

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

@talacaris: Subtext is the reason you’re nothing but a bad joke.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

@talacaris: also, my response was to Eurosabra, for anyone genuinely confused about what I was talking about. (I think most people know that he’s our PUA troll, while talacaris is our all purpose lulz-troll, right?)

talacaris
talacaris
8 years ago

Howie: “Subtext is the reason you’re nothing but a bad joke”
Don’t get it, and if so shouldn’t subtext be abolished.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

*sigh*

Talacaris.

Subtext.

I don’t hate you, by the way. You’re too boring to hate.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

I have $hitty ideas, sure, but obvious crime is obvious.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Eurosabra, I will repeat, trying to distance yourself from these people while still styling yourself a pick-up artist does not work. You carry their stink with you whenever you post.

I repeat: if you want to put some distance between the way you live your life and the things these people say and do, it’s going to take more than a few words.

talacaris
talacaris
8 years ago

Howie: You were linking me to my self-assesment which I made in support for my candidacy for the great TOTY awards. I don’t get what you mean by that.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

Eurosabra: isn’t it true that as a self-proclaimed PUA, you spend your time trying to get women who don’t want to have sex with you, to have sex with you?

Don’t you get it that manipulation, your “mild gaslighting” – have you any idea how horrible that term is, and what it says about you? – and trickery all say you’re not interested in free, enthusiastic consent, but are coercing an unwilling woman? You do realise that’s just another form of rape, don’t you?

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

@talacaris: are you just playing dumb to get me to keep interacting with you? Or do you not understand what the word ‘subtext’ means?

pineapplecookies
pineapplecookies
8 years ago

wow… I really wanted to participate in this conversation, but I already lost the track :/

well, marie, you crack me up. people at the office starting staring at me and wondering what was so funny.

and I really wanted to learn Hungarian…. but I believe I would need an external brain hard drive for that.

I’d love to interact with the trolls too, but I’m a newbie at that hahahahhaha =D

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Our culture generally makes some allowances for charm, charisma, and selling oneself romantically. I’ve lied, as I said, by denying illness and disability, sometimes to women who could see it. But no, I don’t accept your framing of that as coercion and I think if you inflate it to rape that’s going way too far, as feminists so often do. Anyway I’m sure surfacing again here has just given everyone license to pin~ata me again.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

@pineapplecookies: don’t worry too much about following all of the conversation. Feel free to ignore the trolls, who come barrelling in with the specific intention of sidetracking the whole conversation.

talacaris
talacaris
8 years ago

Howie (your avatar is kinda cute):Yes and no to both. I have some kind vague understanding of the word, it’s something like context (the environment in which a statement is made) but different, some kind of a not explicitly stated assumption, which in some way is conveyed to the reader without being said (unclear how?), but the I feel the meaning is diffuse anyway.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Okay, talacaris, I will explain how this conversation went and my use of the word subtext and the meaning of that link.

Eurosabra came in to blather about how he doesn’t stand with rapists. I pointed out that the subtext, the words that aren’t spoken but that everybody hears, is that he’s trying to say that even though he’s a PUA just like them, they’re somehow beyond some line of decency that he can see.

But there is no line. He’s admitted to manipulating women to get them into bed, to “mild gaslighting,” etc.

I crossposted with you, and when you asked about subtext, I pointed at that the subtext with every post you make is that you are a self-admitted troll. I.e., when we read your posts we’re thinking to ourselves ‘this is talacaris, he’s not serious and he’s not really here in honesty to discuss this.’

Which is boring and gets old.

My avatar is Cable, Nathan Summers. The sum total of 90s-era terrible writing. Toxic masuclinity in a nutshell.

In the picture, just barely visible, is the baby he’s carrying.

The art on that particular picture is just fantastic. I love it immensely.

talacaris
talacaris
8 years ago

ok, why don’t you just say that from the start so it’s understandable. was my understaning of the word on the way to the mark?

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Yeah, you mostly got it.

And I didn’t say so from the start because I can’t tell when you’re trolling or when you actually don’t understand.

….did nobody EVER tell you the story of the boy who cried wolf?

Bostonian
Bostonian
8 years ago

Ok, talcaris, since you have massively insensitive feet, sub in sharp thumbtacks for the legos.
Legos hurt my feet horribly when I step on them by mistake.

Gametime
8 years ago

Our culture generally makes some allowances for charm, charisma, and selling oneself romantically. I’ve lied, as I said, by denying illness and disability, sometimes to women who could see it. But no, I don’t accept your framing of that as coercion and I think if you inflate it to rape that’s going way too far, as feminists so often do. Anyway I’m sure surfacing again here has just given everyone license to pin~ata me again.

Gee, I can’t imagine why people here might judge you just because you admit to lying to women to get sex. I simply cannot fathom why anyone might think that makes you a manipulative, selfish, untrustworthy person.

Bostonian
Bostonian
8 years ago

Eurosabra, just leave and stop trying to pretend you are a decent person. You will be happier and so will we.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Did Eurosabra actually just pull “Well yeah, I’m a lying manipulative sleazebag, but society makes allowances for people like me.”

Yeah, no shit, it’s called “rape culture.”

“My shitty treatment of women is reinforced by dominant cultural narratives that serve to protect rapists and domestic abusers from consequences” is not something to be proud of.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@Eurocreep

I mean basically they’re telling everyone this is consensual non-consent kink while taking consent as a given.

See, the problem is there was no consent in the ‘consensual non-consent here’. You may have noticed, but the first step in consensual non-consent is…wait for it…consent!

@katz

Marie and Aaliyah: Don’t use that tone with me! Do as I say, not as I do! When I was your age, it was…the mid-2000s.

You dinosaur, you 😉

@pineapplecookies

well, marie, you crack me up. people at the office starting staring at me and wondering what was so funny.

Thank you. 😀

Now, to Eurocreep again:

Our culture generally makes some allowances for charm, charisma, and selling oneself romantically

“Because it is socially acceptable, it must be right!!!!!!eleventy!!” ~genius~ it’s not like we are living in a rape culture or anything…oh wait.

“My shitty treatment of women is reinforced by dominant cultural narratives that serve to protect rapists and domestic abusers from consequences” is not something to be proud of.

QFT. And quoting also so Eurosabra can see it twice, in hopes it will sink in one day…

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Yeah, if you’re going to equate charisma and charm with rape culture, I should just thank you for NOT equating male sexuality itself with rape culture and take my leave. The difference is, your hyperbole accuses me of things that are more stigmatized, whereas hating men as you do is kosher.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

So basically you think my lying about my own disability status is coercion. That’s unreasonable in the extreme.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

if you’re going to equate charisma and charm with rape culture

No, I equated the BELIEF that manipulating and lying to women is just “charisma and charm” with rape culture.

Um, male sexuality is fine. Most men even have sex with women without any gaslighting or rape at all.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

So all lying in a romantic context is always wrong? Because I have never had a woman STAY when I revealed my situation right away (say within 1 week of starting to date) whereas about 90% of the time when I have revealed it later (say 1 month to 1 year in) they’ve stayed. You’re asking me not to date or have sex, which is what you ask of socially disadvantaged men in general anyway. What’s new?

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Shorter Manboobz: “Men (and only men) must reveal their most serious defects before their positive qualities have had time to be revealed. It’s only HONEST.”

Bostonian
Bostonian
8 years ago

I mean, who would want to have a relationship or sex with someone with a disability? Especially one who told the truth about it?

Wait, you mean that people with disabilities have relationships and sex? Frequently? Without having to lie and manipulate?

Blasphemy, according to Eurosabra, who wants it to be a divine right of gross dudes to lie and manipulate women into having sex.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@Eurocreep

Yeah, if you’re going to equate charisma and charm with rape culture

…That’s because you aren’t describing charisma, you’re describing being a manipulative little fuck.

So basically you think my lying about my own disability status is coercion. That’s unreasonable in the extreme.

I think like one person said it? I mean, I don’t think it is, but we’re not a hivemind, so…

Because I have never had a woman STAY when I revealed my situation right away (say within 1 week of starting to date)

Having seen you posting here, I’m not surprised. It’s not your disability, dude, it’s your gaslighting, manipulation, and being an all around asshole.

“Men (and only men) must reveal their most serious defects before their positive qualities have had time to be revealed. It’s only HONEST.”

I think the problem is that you don’t have any positive qualities to be revealed. Also, have fun fucking that strawchicken.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

Darn forgot the MRA two-point ellipse in message above..

Bostonian
Bostonian
8 years ago

I year! You waited a fucking year? I don’t even know what disability you are blathering on about that makes you so undateable, aside from being a waste of space in general.
A year is beyond any pale.
A month is already getting silly, if you are seeing someone every day.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

No, I’m pretty certain it was just the too-early revelation of something so extremely stigmatized. Remember what gets said here about men telling women their experiences?

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

@Eurosabra

Why would you want to be with someone who would have a problem with your disability? And why would you outright lie about it? That’s fucked up man. A bit of self-loathing?

Not to say that you shouldn’t loathe yourself, but not for being disabled.

I don’t fuck around with that and my disability is invisible, so I do actually have to tell people. Maybe I’ve lost a few friends and lovers in advance that way, but whatever. They wouldn’t have supported me anyway.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

About men dictating to women the women’s experiences, I mean..

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@Eurosabra

Nope, plz enlighten us what we apparently have been saying.

*stars intently at computer screen*

cloudiah
8 years ago

If someone lied to me, actively lied to me, about a disability for a year and then disclosed, I’d dump them — for the lying, not for the disability.

In any case, I seriously doubt that your disability is the problem. Maybe in some of the cases, but you’ve already proven yourself to be a terrible person here, so I suspect that is what is driving people away from you in droves.

Gametime
8 years ago

“I mean, if I didn’t lie to women, I’d never get to have sex! WHAT OTHER CHOICE DO I HAVE?”

You stupid asshole.

Yes, discrimination against people with disabilities is real, and yes, it fucking sucks, and yes, it absolutely needs to change. But simply the fact that some people won’t have sex with you is not a good excuse for deceit. You aren’t required to disclose your disability – that’s entirely your prerogative, as far as I’m concerned – but your backwards fucking justification for lying is pretty indicative of why you’re a consent-hostile douche.

cloudiah
8 years ago

And Nepenthe is right; early disclosure just exposes the assholes you wouldn’t want to date anyway.