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antifeminism antifeminst women homophobia hundreds of upvotes misogyny MRA oppressed men radfems oh my reddit straw feminists

The Men’s Rights Subreddit finds a new woman to love! (Because she hates lesbian feminists.)

redditmensrightsfavoritelady
Mysterious lady, the Men’s Rights subreddit wants to buy you a drink.

The Men’s Rights subreddit has a new favorite lady! The one in the pictures above, if you haven’t guessed. Her name is Sonia Verstappen, and until recently she was a sex worker in Brussels; she’s also an activist for the legalization of sex work. The stills above are apparently from a documentary called Sex Workers and Proud.

The Men’s Rights Redditors who love her don’t actually know any of this. They just love her because she’s a women who apparently thinks hysterical, man-destroying American lesbians have taken over feminism.

This little set of screenshots has been posted to the Men’s Rights subreddit several times before, and I’m pretty sure it’s always gotten a positive response, but never quite as positive as it’s gotten this time: as I write this, it’s been sitting comfortably in the #1 spot on the subreddit’s main page for some time, and has garnered more than twelve hundred net upvotes. The headline? “Wise words.”

[EDITED TO ADD: I stand corrected: On one previous occasion three months ago, the same collection of screenshots recieved more than 1900 upvotes and generated more than 500 comments, making it the 18th most popular post of all time in the Men’s Rights subreddit. Men’s Rights Redditors can’t get enough of this lady they don’t know anything about!]

The main debate going on amongst the regulars is whether or not the man-hating feminists in question are really lesbians or not. No, really. The regulars have all sorts of interesting theories on the subject. And by “interesting,” I mean “ignorant and homophobic and generally just … well, read it.

mr1mr2mr3

I mean, even setting aside Idiopathic77’s rather limited understanding of the mechanics of lesbian sex (and sex in general, come to think of it), that’s just … weird.  I guess this sort of discussion is what happens when you learn about feminism entirely from the Men’s Rights subreddit and YouTube trolls. It’s a bit like learning about Jewish people entirely from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and this clip from Curb Your Enthusiasm.

But where exactly is Whisper here running across all these “lesbian separatists” and heterosexual-women-turned-lesbian-for-political-reasons?

I mean, there was once upon a time in that wild and wacky era called “the seventies” a thing called “political lesbianism” that was based on the idea of lesbianism as a choice, but it got pushed to the fringes fairly quickly, because, you know, sexuality doesn’t really work that way.

Has Whisper developed some sort of time machine? Or do women just declare themselves lesbians when he starts talking to them because it’s a quicker way to get rid of him than giving him a fake phone number? That could also explain those 20% of Florida women who apparently gave  Idiopathic77 the impression that they were lesbians of the phony, man-hating sort.

 

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Karalora
Karalora
8 years ago

And what is it that people do with objects of desire which are also threatening? People attempt to control those objects.

This may be the most unintentionally honest thing an MRA has ever said.

AK
AK
8 years ago

I don’t think Idiopathic77 understands any kind of sex. There’s a fairly significant number of gay men (20%, I think?) who don’t enjoy anal sex, which i’m sure is what he was referring to there. And plenty more who just top, for that matter.

I think his only idea of lesbian sex probably comes from porn aimed at straight guys, and, well, I just saw this video that sums up what actual lesbians think of that: (probably nsfw, nothing graphic is shown or really discussed but it’s pretty clear they’re talking about sex/porn and you can hear some moaning) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PJvYprLDcRs

GreySky
GreySky
8 years ago

I don’t know what’s happening in Belgium, but I can’t say that feminist forums and discussions in my country seem particularly overrun by man-hating American lesbians…

Also, I think separatist going-lesbian-for-political-reasons – however rare it is; 20 percent of Florida’s population, really? REALLY? – is still a whole lot less toxic than the MRAs – this *is* actually Going Their Own Way, rather than demanding a place in the lives and beds of people they resent and despise.

GreySky
GreySky
8 years ago

@Karalora
Yes, I also thought: “Projection much?”

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

So the MRA conception of male sexuality includes objectification, harassment, and getting an erection at the thought of “fucking someone’s shit up”, and they still think it’s weird and unfair that women might be afraid of it.

Darth Conans
Darth Conans
8 years ago

I don’t know. I’m pretty sure the only reason I’m straight is because I hate men so god damn much. What other reason could there possibly be for me not being sexually attracted to Ryan Gosling?

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

this *is* actually Going Their Own Way, rather than demanding a place in the lives and beds of people they resent and despise.

But if they GTOW, how will men have sex with them? Misandry, I tell you!

AK
AK
8 years ago

@GreySky–seriously, if 20% of Florida’s women were lesbians (for whatever reason!), I’m pretty sure lesbians would be flocking there from all over the country. Seriously, those are really good odds when it comes to gay dating.

AK
AK
8 years ago

And apparently I was *really* serious about my last post. 😉

GreySky
GreySky
8 years ago

@AK
Yeah, it also crossed my mind that that must really be a great place for people who usually have to deal with a somewhat limited dating pool 🙂

Newt
Newt
8 years ago

So when I see a woman, who describes herself as a lesbian separatist, I usually suspect I’m seeing a frustrated heterosexual. A woman for whom male sexuality is an object of desire, but an object of desire that is too frightening, too threatening, too pwoerful and self-willed and scary, to reach out for.

And that what is that people /do/ with objects of desire which are also threatening? People attempt to /control/ those objects.

Isn’t that just a summary of MGTOW with the genders reversed?

(Meta: Any chance the text of screencapped comments could be reproduced in alt tags? It would save on retyping the awful to quote it, and it’d help with accessibility too.)

GreySky
GreySky
8 years ago

@emilygodess
Ah but of course. Would it be entering tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist territory if I speculated, that the “fake lesbians” Whisper thinks he’s spotted might actually have been objects of *his* desire?

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

Whisper’s last paragraph really sums up the misogynist mindset: “She objects to being threatened with violence? Oh, no, I think she ‘protests too much’.”

Simultaneously creepy AND disgusting.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

@AK

That video was hilarious.

And now I’ve been introduced to a new biphobic term. “Gold star lesbian” *mulls over that one*

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Well… “Political lesbians” still exist. They didn’t completely die out in the seventies. Met some like sixteen-seventeen years ago (when I moved a bit in some weird anarchist circles), and they’re probably out there still.

But VERY rare.

Although, obviously, I live in Sweden, not Florida, where apparently there are tons of them.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
8 years ago

I read an article from the New Yorker, I think by Ariel Levy, about political lesbianism/lesbian separatism for a sociology class. A few of the women involved were attracted to women, and it has the phrase “the lesbians that were actually gay”, which I still think is hilarious.

Unfortunately, the MGTOW have not figured out how to actually, you know, go, and find joy in each other in whatever way they can. (Possibly because, you know, MRAs: not very pleasant or friendly people.)

Aaliyah
8 years ago

The words of that woman are so trite and repetitive that she might as well be reading a script written by an MRA YouTube commentator.

I mean, her words have it all: misinterpreting radfem critiques of rape culture (no one actually thinks that all sex is rape), accusing feminists of wanting to attack men rather than the patriarchy, and painting all feminists as lesbians who are “crazy and hysterical.”

Aaron
8 years ago

The people Whisper is talking about definitely do exist, there are just a really tiny number of them. I sometimes read their blogs for basically the same reason I do yours: I can’t resist a good trainwreck.

Here’s a good example: http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/moron-creativity/

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

I just saw this video that sums up what actual lesbians think of that: (probably nsfw, nothing graphic is shown or really discussed but it’s pretty clear they’re talking about sex/porn and you can hear some moaning) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PJvYprLDcRs

I wish the Real Lesbians hadn’t resorted to misogyny (“those are strippers!”) or that “gold star lesbian” crap (I had only heard that used sarcastically; didn’t realize there were people who actually identified with it). Before that, it was pretty funny.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

Another salient point, when we’re talking about political lesbianism/women who “go gay” after getting sick of misogyny, is that some of them are bi/pan women who have decided to date women exclusively for whatever reasons. But don’t tell the homophobic misogynists that giving up on men and actually liking women aren’t actually mutually exclusive, it might blow their tiny little minds.

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago

You know, of all the things I would think a former sex worker/supporter of sex worker rights would go after… I would have thought it would be the attitudes some radfems have towards sexwork and people who make a living from it. Not the “they’re all (apparently utra feminine hysteria having) lesbians”.

Does anyone else wonder how the stereotyped too masculine butch can’t be bothered with men lesbian is also so feminine she suffers from hysteria? I know stereotypes often conflict, but really?

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago

Emilygoddess, the idea that would really blow MRA minds is that there are women who not only have no desire for sex with anyone, but don’t want to have children or live with a partner. That there are people out there who are very happy to be completely single and without sex partners.

BritterSweet
BritterSweet
8 years ago

I read a quote from a Tumblr blog once, but can’t remember the exact wording:

“Bisexual men are generally assumed to be actually gay.
Bisexual women are generally assumed to be actually straight.
Both are generally assumed to be into men.
Coincidence?”

That just came to mind because of how the post screams of a form of egocentrism I see all the time, especially by misogynists and homophobes. Basically, that everything revolves around straight men. Lesbians are either actively trying to destroy men or can be “cured” by sex with a man. Sex (real sex) is impossible without a dick. The only true standard or attractiveness is if it pleases straight men. And working to make life better for anyone besides straight men automatically is considered being against straight men.

The “male ego” is so fragile, and breaking it is such a travesty according to certain guys. But IMO, there comes a point where a little crack would be beneficial. Maybe then they would learn some empathy and that the universe isn’t all about them.

cloudiah
8 years ago

SO much laughage.

Another good quote from the same thread:

I’m not trying to say that all feminists hate men. I don’t believe that. But I do believe feminism is a safe space for people who do hate men to not have that hatred challenged.

So little self-awareness.

Also, according to AVfM, all feminists support Jodi Arias. It’s like our #1 issue. AVfM knows this is true, in spite of the fact that no mainstream feminist organizations, spokespersons, bloggers, etc. have written anything supporting her. (The lurkers support her in email, maybe?)

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

Idiopathic doesn’t seem to get how gay sex works either.

I would explain it to him, but that might encourage him to join my area of the fence.

Also, pleh on the ‘gold star lesbian’ shit. Most of my friends are bi these days, and it gives me very little patience for the gayer-than-thou.

AK
AK
8 years ago

@emilygoddess and Nepenthe, yeah, the “gold star lesbian” and the stripper lines bothered me too. Overall though I had to laugh.

I’ve been pretty involved in the queer scene and I’ve actually never heard the term “gold star lesbian” before (although I’ve definitely run into the attitude that created it). Either it’s regional or my friends know it would piss me off and don’t say it around me.

AK
AK
8 years ago

Oh and the Jodi Arias stuff made me think of a comment I saw on an article about this really horrible press release HLN released about their coverage of her trial. It was basically gloating that they were the most-watched cable network for the 2 hours that Jodi Arias was “pleading for her life” (and yes, those were their exact words). It was really appalling.

The comment section somehow turned into MRAs criticizing feminists for not denouncing Nancy Grace and the other exploitative female “journalists” on that network. I’m like, since when is that a feminist issue? And also, since when have feminists liked Nancy freaking Grace? It’s like they can’t read anything even vaguely related to a woman without trying to attack feminism with it, which just makes them look silly.

Kakanian
Kakanian
8 years ago

She isn’t exactly wrong, I think. The idea “you have to be this lesbian to be a feminist”-idea used to have a lot more credit maybe… thirty years or so ago? But I don’t see the problem with that. I mean, they’re rare these days, the movement has moved on to more inclusive positions since the 70s. Meanwhile, the MRA sound like they’re stuck in the 1870s.

No idea if that actually was such a specifically anglo-saxon thing though. I mostly figured that she was simply parroting common european prejudice regarding the role of the US in world politics in a very unreflected manner.

BlackBloc (@XBlackBlocX)

Meanwhile, in the real world, liberal feminists back in the 70s were actually often throwing their lesbian sisters under the bus in order to defuse conservative attacks on feminism being a den of lesbianism. (This is not a dig on feminism qua feminism, we know that in general progressive orgs were poor on intersectionality back then, and sadly often they still are today).

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@AK

@GreySky–seriously, if 20% of Florida’s women were lesbians (for whatever reason!), I’m pretty sure lesbians would be flocking there from all over the country. Seriously, those are really good odds when it comes to gay dating.

What are the normal odds for gay dating? /just curious.

@cloudiah

I’m not trying to say that all feminists hate men. I don’t believe that. But I do believe feminism is a safe space for people who do hate men to not have that hatred challenged.

So little self-awareness.

Wow. Also, paraphrasing quote time! ‘I’m not saying all feminist hate men, I’m just saying all feminists tolerate hate of men.’

Also, according to AVfM, all feminists support Jodi Arias.

Who is Jodi Arias? I missed the hivemind update.

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

On Jodi Arias: I… am really glad I’ve been avoiding the whole mess. I just now got the full scoop by going to wikipedia (I recommend this approach to ‘big name’ trials, actually; you get most of the facts, and fairly little editorializing). It’s… ugly. I suppose the MRAs argument is something along the lines of, “Jodi Arias was claiming self-defense and domestic violence, even though it’s obvious she was planning to kill him, so therefor all claims of DV and rape made by any woman, ever, are just as false.”

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

Marie: The estimates are a bit fuzzy, depending on what definitions you use and where you ask, but even San Francisco, generally regarded as having the highest percentage of homosexuals in the population in the U.S., clocks in at about 15-16%. For most areas, though, 2-3% is the common number of self-identified homosexuals, with maybe up to 10% having some sort of same-sex conduct in the past.

Interestingly, the ‘consolidated metropolitan area’ (ie, cities so close together that you can kind of count them as one big metropolis) in the U.S. with the highest percentage of self-identified homosexuals is in southern Florida–at 4-5%. A segment of Georgia is right behind them, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@freemage

Nuts. Well, thanks for the info 🙂

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

Oh, and Jodi Arias is a woman who killed her ex-boyfriend, then tried to claim it was self-defense (and accused him of raping her). However, there’s a… LOT of evidence that she went to see him very explicitly planning to seduce and kill him. So, yeah, pretty much the MRA dream-case. *Sigh*

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@freemage

and thanks for info again. Hadn’t heard. Not surprised those over at the AVFM think all feminist support her >:/ Fits their whole ‘feminists just hate men’ view though.

lightcastle
lightcastle
8 years ago

This may be the most unintentionally honest thing an MRA has ever said.

Karalora, that’s exactly what I thought.

Pear_tree
Pear_tree
8 years ago

Why do they think gay guys are safe from false rape accusations? I thought all men had to do to be accused of rape was walk

Emily-goddess
Emily-goddess
8 years ago

criticizing feminists for not denouncing Nancy Grace and the other exploitative female “journalists” on that network.

In order to know what feminists are and aren’t denouncing, they would have to actually read feminist blogs or columns, and given their rampant misconceptions about feminism I’m gonna guess they’re talking out their asses again.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Meanwhile, in the real world, liberal feminists back in the 70s were actually often throwing their lesbian sisters under the bus in order to defuse conservative attacks on feminism being a den of lesbianism.

So much this. Not only to diffuse the conservatives, but out of straight-up ignorance.

Funny, I thought lesbians were imaginary to MRAs. But like POC, I guess they serve as great beatstick when they can be assed to pay attention to anyone who isn’t a straight cis white dude.

becausescience
becausescience
8 years ago

Someone who is truly homosexual has little or no reason to hate or fear the opposite sex; since they need nothing from them on a personal level, they have little vulnerability to abuse or exploitation by them.

It’s telling that he thinks not wanting to fuck members of a group renders you immune to abuse or exploitation by said group. Also, the fact that he lumps “friendzoning” in with their supposedly important political issues. They really are trying to make women not fucking them into some sort of important political issue.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

beacusescience: this makes me think they’ve never had any friends, or they’d know that sometimes non-sexual relationships can get weird and toxic too.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: becausescience

By this logic, asexuals are the least abusable people on earth. GENIUS!

cloudiah
8 years ago

Why would feminists be denouncing Nancy Grace? Isn’t she calling for Arias’ summary execution, as is her usual practice? That is what MRAs have been doing, since long before she was convicted.

Why am I trying to understand MRA “logic”? I don’t want to break my brain in advance of a 3-day weekend (even though I will be spending most of that weekend working on a stupid journal article on a stupid subject that I stupidly agreed to help write because I am stupid).

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

Oh, dear, I suspect we’re going to have a visitation by the BuRZing one, he was very fond of quoting this woman.

Alex
8 years ago

Someone who is truly homosexual has little or no reason to hate or fear the opposite sex; […] they have little vulnerability to abuse or exploitation by them.

It’s not like “corrective” rape has never been a thing, of course.

Alex
8 years ago

*has ever been a thing. Not “never”.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

Also, hey guys! Fantastic news! WE HAVE HOUSING! Four walls and a motherfucking WINDOW, y’all! Plus three tiny random closets, an AC, a weird window seat/nook/thing, and a secret chamber through a panel in the wall! IT IS AWESOME!

In honor of our regaining of housing, we have started another writeathon! The theme, naturally, is Home! Come celebrate with us!

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@LBT

That’s great! 😀 Congrats!

katz
8 years ago

LBT: HOORAY! Big fistbump. I hope that it ends up being a more stable situation.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

You got a window!?! CONGRATS!!

If Sneak tries to talk you into getting a pet fish, ignore the “start with a tetra” advice, catfish are far hardier and that matters while the tank cycles (total biased selection — cories)

…I hope I didn’t just inspire a round of begging for a pet…sorry!

*sends a virtual cake for the virtual housewarming party*

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