I was a little saddened to read recently that A Voice for Men — the self-proclaimed “Men’s Human Rights” site that has posted an open call to firebomb government buildings in its “activism” section — will no longer be writing about little old me.
Yes, it’s true. In a recent post announcing that he would no longer be writing or caring about journalist Arthur Goldwag, who famously took on the misogyny of the Men’s Rights movement in a piece for the Southern Poverty Law Center, AVFM’s head douchebag Paul Elam also noted that he would no longer be writing or caring about me either.
“In the early days of this site, we used to write a fair amount about David Futrelle,” Elam wrote. “He was a nice, soft target; pudgy actually.”
But now, apparently, AVFM has gotten much too important to bother with soft, pudgy nobodies like me or Goldwag or the SPLC.
We don’t mention David anymore except as a passing joke. He is just another low-end blogger with a small audience of neurotic women who talk more about cats in his comments than what he writes. It is as close to physical intimacy as the guy will ever get.
It’s a little strange how much time Elam, a fiftysomething straight man, spends thinking about my sex life, but I suppose it will be a bit of a relief not to have to read so many of these fantasies of his in the pages of AVFM. Not to mention Elam’s bizarre conspiracy theories about me — like this one. (I wonder why Elam never came forward with the proof of those allegations like he promised he would? Hmm.)
So I was a little surprised when, only one day after Elam bid me that not-very-fond farewell, AVFM’s “managing editor” Dean Esmay decided to set forth yet another conspiracy theory about me and my alleged army of evil minions.
In the midst of a long, weird, barely coherent tirade directed at a writer for Vice magazine who’d approached AVFM with some questions for its stable of female MRAs, Esmay accused my evil minions (in advance) of writing to the Viceman pretending to be female MRAs in an attempt to make female MRAs look bad:
[M]aybe … one of David Futrelle’s minions will show up in your inbox and say “yeah I’m a female MRA and I support taking rights away from women and I hate women too because we women suck, put women who have abortions in prison praise jesus blargh!” and so on and so forth, because that’s just what a whole lot of people who oppose compassion and fundamental human rights for boys and men do: pretend to be MRAs or to be quoting MRAs just to make us look bad. We’ve seen it in action more than once. At least one asshole we know of pretty much does it as a full-time gig.
Dude, I hate to break it to you, but none of my “minions” needs to pretend to be a female MRA in order to make female MRAs look bad. Female MRAs like JudgyBitch and GirlWritesWhat and TyphonBlue are already doing an exemplary job of that already. I mean, seriously, did you read JudgyBitch’s thing about pedophilia the other day? I mean, wow.
Of course male MRAs are also doing a fantastic job making themselves look terrible as well, from Warren Farrell on down to that dude who thinks “friend zoning” should be punishable by law (and the dozens of Men’s Rights Redditors who upvoted him).
But, really, no single website has done more to make the Men’s Rights movement look terrible than A Voice for Men.
Seriously, fellas (and FeMRAs), take a bow. We here at Man Boobz couldn’t do it without you. I couldn’t make up the shit you spew if I tried. (And, for the record, I don’t try.)
ATTENTION-WAY AN-MAY OOBZ-BAY INIONS-MAY: I-way am-way alling-cay off-way our-way evious-day an-play o-tay impersonate-way emale-fay As-mRAY. Ean-day Esmay-way as-hay igured-fay it-way out-way. Ease-play eturn-ray o-tay alsely-fay accusing-way apless-hay etas-bay until-way urther-fay otice-nay. And-way on’t-day orget-fay o-tay eed-fay e-thay ats-cay.
@Cassandrasays
It does? I must be too used to ignoring Word…
I have 2 different versions of Word and both of them redline himself/herself. It’s weird.
‘Cos Word is stupid? I turned the spelling and grammar checks off when I used it. I use OpenOffice these days. Stuffed if I’m paying Mr Gates MORE money.
@Viscaria – “Or, more generously, they just forgot that people like me are common enough that any of us might see it.”
That’s the thing that’s so easy to do, and it’s one of the reasons I’m grateful to the regulars on Manboobz. People don’t go around with a “Hey, I’m Non-neurotypical!” sign and if someone doesn’t fall into the “crazy person” stereotypes (and how many do?) it’s all too easy for the neurotypical to assume everyone else is, too, and not even think about what we’re saying and its implications.
… did that make any sense?
That is actually… really accurate and a confound I had not thought of, so thank you.
Source: http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/MentalHealth/Information.aspx
Thanks, but I understand this. When I say that I believe that a higher proportion of MRAs are psychopaths than the general population, I’m not saying that “Thur bad lawl and psychopaths r bad so they must be psychopaths!1!!”. I’m saying that many MRA writers exhibit symptoms of psychopathy like grandiose self-worth, conning and manipulativeness, lack of guilt (think about MRAs who’ve written about raping people), etc. etc. etc.
It’s also associated with success in business and politics. Perhaps I’m actually lauding certain MRAs for their earning potential and ability to wield power.
(I also disagree that psychopathy is a mental illness. Mental illnesses are distressing to the person who has them. Psychopathy is distressing to the people unlucky enough to have to deal with a psychopath.)
I think that identifying when a person is merely an asshole and when a person is a psychopathic asshole is important. Mere assholes can, after all, change. Psychopathic assholes can be avoided.
@Argenti
Sorry to disappoint, but I do hold several Incorrect Opinions, especially about the disabilities I have and the types of people I’ve been victimized by.
Try hirself – maybe it’s trying to promote neutral pronouns?
Well, that’s the fun of psychopathy. It’s both! I mean, it must be amazing to a) never experience negative emotions like grief, or guilt, or fear and b) think you’re the most awesome human being ever to walk the face of the earth.
I think that identifying when a person is merely an asshole and when a person is a psychopathic asshole is important.
How do you intend to determine the difference, exactly, given how weak the standard study for sociopathy is? An 80% accuracy rate is crap when it comes to determining policy; are the 20% inaccurately branded sociopaths just… what? I mean, that’s the whole issue of taking the test from a clinical use to a criminal one, and the effect has been that men who may be entirely remorseful and safe remain in prison because they “failed” this test. The number of false positives is astonishing.
This is not academic. This is an actual thing which is damaging peoples’ lives.
I think there’s a big difference between “person X is exhibiting many of the classic symptoms of psychopathy and seems to fit the diagnostic criteria from what I can see” and “person X is just crazy, lol”.
I used to know someone who was diagnosed with what’s now known as anti-social personality disorder, and was told off here for calling him a sociopath (which is both what the disorder used to be called and what laymen mostly call it now). I didn’t say anything at the time but honestly, that I think was crossing the line from “we should be sensitive to other people’s feelings and not contribute to ableism” to outright policing of the “don’t say the bad word” variety. I don’t think asking people not to do the “lol they’re all crazy” stuff is policing in the same way, given all the stuff that’s already been discussed. At the same time, I get what nepenthe is saying – once you’ve accumulated a certain amount of experience with individuals who’re somewhere on that spectrum of psychopathic behavior, it gets easier to recognize the signs the next time you see them. That being said, I don’t think that “crazy” is a good way to describe what you’re seeing. Apart from everything else it’s much too vague.
@Deoridhe
I didn’t realize we were determining policy or making official proclamations by talking on a blog. Is this like how, when discussing specific rape cases, saying you think some one is guilty in blog comments is the same as sentencing someone to 20 years?
And you know who are also an actual beings who damage people’s lives? Psychopaths. This is anything but an academic conversation for me.
While I’m not comfortable with internet armchair diagnoses, Nepenthe is right, we aren’t determining whether MRAs stay in jail, but commenting on whether they seem to be dangerous (granted, just saying “dangerously assholeish” works for me).
“Sorry to disappoint, but I do hold several Incorrect Opinions, especially about the disabilities I have and the types of people I’ve been victimized by.”
I haz a serious confuzed. I still can’t tell whether you where sarcastically saying that calling an argument weak is ableist (ie, calling bullshit on that) or saying that you think it is ableist. The latter I’m guessing? Sorry to keep asking and playing “TEACH ME ALL THE THINGS” but I don’t want to offend when really, shoddy works just fine…maybe I’ll just go with shoddy either way, since it sounds like it probably is harmful in general // painful for some people (including you, if my confuzed isn’t too confuzed)
And yes, I like the letter z 😛
Cassandra — I find it odd that saying “and the person in question has been diagnosed with X” would be a problem (I mean, assuming it’s relevant and not an ad hominem)
Today’s comments brought to you by the letter A, for ad hominem, and the number 3, for the number of times I’ve had to stop myself from just swearing incoherently at budmin.
At least AVfM is consistently awful.
@ Argenti
I think her issue was that the term “sociopath” is out of date because the DSM calls it something different now, therefore obviously you’re lying about this person’s diagnosis, and also something about how nobody but her knows anything about these things? I dunno, it was a bit rambly, but it was definitely a demand that I stop talking about it.
See, part of the reason I don’t like “crazy” as a blanket description is that people use it to mean everything from “wants to blow up government buildings” to “belongs to a religious group that I think is silly” to “has too many cats”. As a description for MRAs who actually do seem like they might have a personality disorder and the desire to seriously hurt people it’s a bit wishy-washy and sounds like you’re handwaving away the very real threat of danger, in addition to all the other reasons not to use “crazy” as a generalized insult.
@Argenti
Sorry, I was sarcastically saying that. I don’t think FWD is the stopping point for the “is this word ableist” discussion and that article, as well as a few more, are a big part of why. You’re not playing teach me all the things; I just misread the tone of your question.
When it comes to call outs, I think the fact that there’s no room, in standard social justice culture, to say “really? Is it really bigoted to describe a sound as weak? is it really oppressive to describe a person diagnosed with ASPD as a sociopath?” is sad.
I fail to see how there’s no room. It’s not like no one is allowed to disagree.
“THIS” for Cassandra’s and Nepenthe’s last two comments.
Cassandra — oh, yeah, totally fucking fine with going “this person sounds fucking dangerous” *cough* GGG *cough* but idk on labeling them sociopaths, for one, the label generally short hands to “beyond all ability to not be dangerous” and maybe I just want to believed it, but they can’t all be irreparably tainted by the MRM.
And wtf? What about people with bipolar disorder (that feels so wrong to say…I’m still adjusting to being officially diagnosed I guess) who prefer, or where actually diagnosed with, manic depression? No, you can’t know wtf you’re talking about, it’s called bipolar disorder now!!!eleventy!!!
Nepenthe — ah, ok, my original comment stands then — I’d think weak acceptable for things that are contrasted with strong, eg arguments that could potentionally have merit, if given more…gusto. Joe’s shit and the like is better described as shoddy, regardless this question, can’t belief that hadn’t clicked before (probably because he induces swear mode). But yeah, I didn’t mean to say that FWD is the be all and end all, but a good primer for thinking about ableism in general.
Oh and this —
“When it comes to call outs, I think the fact that there’s no room, in standard social justice culture, to say “really? Is it really bigoted to describe a sound as weak? is it really oppressive to describe a person diagnosed with ASPD as a sociopath?” is sad.”
I think it depends how you ask, that is, both those questions allow that maybe it is bigoted/oppressive, maybe it isn’t, so let’s discuss! I, for my part, am fine with anything that is “so let’s discuss!” and not “so I’m right because I say so”. Extra weight given if it’s “this is oppressive because of how it affects people like me” (after all listening to the oppressed instead of speaking for them = social justice 101)
Also, more in relation to my last comment, what I meant about labeling sociopaths is I saw somewhere, months ago (NYT I think) a piece about recognizing early signs in kids and potentially preventing them from becoming sociopaths (to use proper clinical terms, how to treat kids with ODD so they don’t become adults with ASPD) — but the stigma around it making it hard to do because you both have parents who’re ready to give up, because of their kid’s uncontrollable, potentionally violent, behavior; and then the criminal system basically waiting to intake them. That they might be treatable, or at least trainable to a degree that keeps them from hurting others, but society views sociopaths as inherently dangerous and beyond help so labeling the kids becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Am I making sense? I feel like my sentences just got all Doctor Who “that sentence got away from me”.
Actually I disagree rather strongly with that last point, and so does the guy who Deoridhe was referring to above who does the brain scans – he said that if his kids had that brain pattern he’d want to know so he could try to tackle potential problems as early as possible. Early diagnosis means that there’s more possibility of a positive outcome, because it can lead to treatment. Just ignoring the early warning signs isn’t going to help, and who says that a general announcement has to be made when a kid is diagnosed? Parents whose kids are displaying those symptoms are going to be alarmed and feel helpless anyway – a diagnosis might at least provide reassurance that it’s not the result of something they did wrong and a roadmap for helping their kid to learn to integrate better into society.
The former friend who I was talking about before? If he’d been diagnosed at the age of 5 or 6, which is when he tried to hang his little brother just to see if people really do turn blue if you hang them, and started treatment then, his chances for growing up to be a person who could function well in society would have been much better than what actually happened, which is that he was diagnosed during his college years after he punched his mother in the face and knocked her out during an argument. Last I heard he had dropped out of college after exhausting even the most caring administration’s attempts to accommodate his behavior.
Cassandra — my sentence(s) failed, as we must’ve read the same thing as the only argument against Dx’ing them was the label itself and the potential to not treat because it was seen as a lost cause. When no, you fucking try anyways. Thank you for saying that far more coherently than my attempt (I fail at communication today, like I’m 5 again and having all hell break loose when I said my father put the snake on my arm with a pen and they heard pin [that’s pretty funny in hindsight])
Snake on arm with pin? I’m having a hard time imagining what they thought you meant.
From what I recall and the family story of this mess, they thought I’d been given a tattoo (which would’ve been bad on multiple levels, my father’s drawing skills are non-existent, it was basically two sorta parallel curves with eyes)
Now where this conversation starts getting way more complicated is when we start talking about class. Brain scan dude found that a surprisingly high percentage of prison inmates have the same pattern that you can literally see via brain scan but, at the same time, so do a surprisingly high percentage of people in certain professions (including journalism, yay!) that are generally well respected and unlikely to land you in jail. As far as I could tell he hadn’t studied how class plays into that yet in terms of the interaction between whatever is going on in the brain and positive versus less positive outcomes, but I’m willing to bet that if someone did study it they’d find some pretty strong evidence that the environment a child grows up in makes a big difference. So, from there we get to the problem of diagnosis – rich kids will get diagnosed and maybe get treatment that’s useful, poor kids may be more likely to just get labelled and funneled into programs that just assume they’re going to grow up to be criminals.
None of which undermines what I think Nepenthe was trying to say, which is that it’s not unreasonable for people to view those who display what look like signs of psychopathy or ASPD with a certain amount of caution.
Yeah, tattooing your 5 year old would probably raise some eyebrows.
BTW before anyone thinks that I’m drawing a working class = more likely to be dangerous parallel, nope, I’m purely talking about treatment versus the tendency of the criminal justice system to come down hard on working class kids from a very young age. The dude I’m referring to above was a rich kid (and more horrible the more you got to know him – he was a veritable onion of awfulness).