I was a little saddened to read recently that A Voice for Men — the self-proclaimed “Men’s Human Rights” site that has posted an open call to firebomb government buildings in its “activism” section — will no longer be writing about little old me.
Yes, it’s true. In a recent post announcing that he would no longer be writing or caring about journalist Arthur Goldwag, who famously took on the misogyny of the Men’s Rights movement in a piece for the Southern Poverty Law Center, AVFM’s head douchebag Paul Elam also noted that he would no longer be writing or caring about me either.
“In the early days of this site, we used to write a fair amount about David Futrelle,” Elam wrote. “He was a nice, soft target; pudgy actually.”
But now, apparently, AVFM has gotten much too important to bother with soft, pudgy nobodies like me or Goldwag or the SPLC.
We don’t mention David anymore except as a passing joke. He is just another low-end blogger with a small audience of neurotic women who talk more about cats in his comments than what he writes. It is as close to physical intimacy as the guy will ever get.
It’s a little strange how much time Elam, a fiftysomething straight man, spends thinking about my sex life, but I suppose it will be a bit of a relief not to have to read so many of these fantasies of his in the pages of AVFM. Not to mention Elam’s bizarre conspiracy theories about me — like this one. (I wonder why Elam never came forward with the proof of those allegations like he promised he would? Hmm.)
So I was a little surprised when, only one day after Elam bid me that not-very-fond farewell, AVFM’s “managing editor” Dean Esmay decided to set forth yet another conspiracy theory about me and my alleged army of evil minions.
In the midst of a long, weird, barely coherent tirade directed at a writer for Vice magazine who’d approached AVFM with some questions for its stable of female MRAs, Esmay accused my evil minions (in advance) of writing to the Viceman pretending to be female MRAs in an attempt to make female MRAs look bad:
[M]aybe … one of David Futrelle’s minions will show up in your inbox and say “yeah I’m a female MRA and I support taking rights away from women and I hate women too because we women suck, put women who have abortions in prison praise jesus blargh!” and so on and so forth, because that’s just what a whole lot of people who oppose compassion and fundamental human rights for boys and men do: pretend to be MRAs or to be quoting MRAs just to make us look bad. We’ve seen it in action more than once. At least one asshole we know of pretty much does it as a full-time gig.
Dude, I hate to break it to you, but none of my “minions” needs to pretend to be a female MRA in order to make female MRAs look bad. Female MRAs like JudgyBitch and GirlWritesWhat and TyphonBlue are already doing an exemplary job of that already. I mean, seriously, did you read JudgyBitch’s thing about pedophilia the other day? I mean, wow.
Of course male MRAs are also doing a fantastic job making themselves look terrible as well, from Warren Farrell on down to that dude who thinks “friend zoning” should be punishable by law (and the dozens of Men’s Rights Redditors who upvoted him).
But, really, no single website has done more to make the Men’s Rights movement look terrible than A Voice for Men.
Seriously, fellas (and FeMRAs), take a bow. We here at Man Boobz couldn’t do it without you. I couldn’t make up the shit you spew if I tried. (And, for the record, I don’t try.)
ATTENTION-WAY AN-MAY OOBZ-BAY INIONS-MAY: I-way am-way alling-cay off-way our-way evious-day an-play o-tay impersonate-way emale-fay As-mRAY. Ean-day Esmay-way as-hay igured-fay it-way out-way. Ease-play eturn-ray o-tay alsely-fay accusing-way apless-hay etas-bay until-way urther-fay otice-nay. And-way on’t-day orget-fay o-tay eed-fay e-thay ats-cay.
@trtina
…David doesn’t say it’s a safe place. From the top of the page:
And I know it can hurt to get called out by people, but why do you think you (general, don’t remember if you did this) should have a safe space here and not the people who are hurt by ableism? Unlearning harmful language takes a long time, and lots of work. The comments calling people out aren’t to attack the person, just as a reminder/ heads up.
@trtina
He might say it’s a safe plce elsewhere, I don’t know, but he does specifically say in the “comments policy” page that it isn’t:
Also, speaking as a newbie as of last night who got jumped on for using a phrase that is just a residual language issue, albeit not too harshly. I find it’s helpful to take a moment to consider whether it’s worth hanging onto those residual language issues, or if it would be better to work on eliminating them from our vocabulary. Remember, this is the internet, and emotional context isn’t always clear.
“But you’re wrong about this being a “safe place”. It isn’t. This is a public blog.”
I don’t believe this blog is suposed to be a “safe place”. It actually says that near the top from david himself: The point of this blog is to expose misogynists and other terrible people by quoting the hateful things they say. It’s not a safe space. You may run across upsetting and possibly triggering things in the posts and in the fairly loosely moderated comments as well.
“Commenters jumping on newbies for using words that are probably just residual language issues as opposed to personal attacks isn’t doing you any favors.”
If you say something offensive, whether intentional or not, we will call you out. Just apologize and change, or if you feel like you’ve been wrongly called out, then explain why. However don’t just stand back and say we are “jumping” on you, without explaining why you think you were wrongly called out.
“I guess I’m a “concern troll”.”
You don’t have to leave… just don’t use language that offends us, even if it’s unintentional. I’ve had no issues with being “jumped” so far, and I’m relatively new to feminism. Hell I see well-liked members get called out, but they apologize and correct themselves. And if you feel like someone here said something wrong, then you can also call them out.
It certainly bears saying, although you are right that intersectionality is just a bit too sophisticated for MRAs in general and the trolls who pull drive bys here in specific.
This. Another point that bears repeating.
Those of you who get upset for being corrected (and I say this as someone who has herself had to run the gauntlet for boneheaded and sloppy thinking and who is well familiar with the sting) because the language you use frames identity as pathology should think about how outraged you (justifiably) feel when MRA types use references to femininity as a slur (“don’t be such a p*ssy” etc.) and the typically hysterical and overwrought reaction correcting them (“you feminazis are such humorless b*tches!!) produces. Do you want to identify/be identified with that? Really?
We’re all learning. I’ve studied gender theory and feminist history for going on decades now and I still learn new things constantly. Why defend ignorance and “residual” issues based on historic patterns of discrimination? Why not just do the work and take one small step to further the project of ending those historic patterns?
And if you are going to make a stand, what is it about the ability to use the word “crazy” or similar as a slur that makes it a hill worth dying on? There’s no snark here, if you have a point to make, I’m genuinely interested in hearing it.
…also
…comes across an awful lot like Budminnie’s stale-ass “You’re not helping the Feminism/Comedy debate much with that attitude” whinge.
This is the bog standard complaint about feminism since, like, ever. Why would you come to a place maintained by a feminist to call out anti-feminist propaganda in order to use bigoted rhetoric and then get upset about being called out?
No, but your privledge is showing. Why are the issues concerning your identity (as a feminist, I assume, since you seem comfortable attacking misogyny) serious and worthy but slurs based on the identity of others are, what, evidence that people are being too sensitive or not getting the joke?
So (and this is general, not specifically focused at anyone in particular) come back and participate, or flounce off and sulk in a corner, but I call bullshit on your holier-than-thou attitude, as if being pissy because someone called you out on ablist thinking is somehow so completely different and so much better than MRAs moaning and whining after being called out for their misogyny.
I remember having a discussion about Shakesville in the forums back when they were new, and it’s actually a good comparison. Shakesville is very explicitly a safe space. One is expected to go back and edit comments to remove offensive language, even if it was used in error, by mistake. Manboobz doesn’t allow comment editing so that the boobz can’t go back and pretend they didn’t say something they did actually say, and explicitly warns that nearly every post will contain triggers.
I don’t think David realized he’d end up with such a nice friendly group of commenters who hang around and bond with each other – if you go look at the early days of the site, it was nearly all asshole MRAs commenting. I’ve been around since the very earliest days, and I mostly lurk, but not much has changed except our cat icons, anyone willing to have an honest conversation has always been welcome here.
I do appreciate the fact that certain terms/phrases are considered off-limits here. I don’t mean to start an argument, BUT… (and here goes, sorry)
It’s just that I had never heard of the term ‘ableism’ before I started reading certain feminist-leaning blogs. I have never come across it in academic theory either. It must be a very new thing. To get personal here for a second, a few of my family members are severely mentally ill. It would never enter my mind to get angry or offended when the people around me use words like ‘crazy’ or ‘insane’ to describe things because, well, that’s how people talk. Many people, upon hearing that these words are off-limits, are going to ask ‘why?’, and that does not mean that they are on the same level as angry misogynists or purposefully-hurtful trolls. But I don’t think people should whine when they get ‘called out’. Seriously, what’s the point?
I don’t understand the hostility when someone here questions whether some MRAs are mentally ill. I think it is a perfectly valid question to ask. Mental illness can cause prejudice where there was none before – I have seen it happen more than a few times. I just don’t get why it’s so wrong to speculate.
I appreciate that I am probably wrong here, but I do think that there are issues to be discussed here. No, this is not the hill I want to die on. I want to help make sure ideas like those found in the MRM and the manosphere don’t spread and do (further) damage. That (to me) doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything feminism stands for. I debated for a long time whether or not to type this, because I really don’t want to anger people here, or get attacked, but considering everything that comes with it, I cannot consider myself a feminist. That doesn’t mean that the MRM bothers me any less. I consider myself an egalitarian and won’t let the MRAs take that word away from me.
I really like this blog and the people who post here, but it bothers me a lot that people who are not misogynists get attacked the same way as people who are over some disagreement that doesn’t have anything to do with misogyny, and it’s been happening a lot lately. It bothers me that I feel like I (and others) can’t disagree with other commenters without being jumped on. I think it’s time I leave this blog (YES THIS TIME I AM REALLY GOING), especially since this whole topic bothers me rather more than it should, and it isn’t exactly good for my health.
@Carleyblue
I think it’s just the assumption that they’re unpleasant, therefore maybe they’re mentally ill, which implies that being mentally ill causes people to be unpleasant. It’s not that it’s impossible for the two to be related, it’s just a bad assumption to make that they must be.
@Carleyblue
“I don’t understand the hostility when someone here questions whether some MRAs are mentally ill. I think it is a perfectly valid question to ask. Mental illness can cause prejudice where there was none before – I have seen it happen more than a few times. I just don’t get why it’s so wrong to speculate.”
The question itself is fine. But we live in a culture in which reprehensible people are almost immediately labeled as mentally ill, hence the aversion to that question.
As for why people here don’t like the use of the word “crazy” and similar words, it’s problematic because, regardless of intent, it contributes to that culture I’ve just mentioned.
Well, Carleyblue, I see what you just did as being fundamentally different. Granted, this is just me, and maybe I’ll make someone else angry too, but here’s how I see it.
I guess I just feel that it lets them off too easy. Sure, some people have some odd ideas that might relate back to mental illness. I know my own depression can bring on some unusual patterns of thought sometimes, and my manic periods can produce some interesting (to say the least) behaviors. It’s a struggle to keep those in check with medication and therapy and constant effort, and sometimes the struggle doesn’t seem worth the mediocre gains I make, but that’s a different story. Sometimes I do things and I alienate my friends and loved ones, and I still go back and apologize and hold myself accountable, but I do expect a bit of leeway when I’m struggling and can’t get my feet under me right away.
For me, suggesting that MRAs think the way they do because they are just “crazy” means that they deserve some kind of special permission, some special allowance for being assholes. I have no patience for the “agree to disagree” thing when someone is demonstrably, provably wrong about something. People are entitled to their opinions, sure, and even entitled to off the wall, unencumbered-by-the-thought-process opinions, but you don’t get to stab someone in the eye because you thought they were trying to use mind control on you, and you don’t get to rape someone without consequences because you think that the government owes you happiness, which you define as regular sex.
I guess it boils down to yet another identity question. People who are “crazy” may or may not be able to control their thinking or choose their behavior. I’m going to give the average MRA the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are relatively average in terms of being able to reason, and in that case it’s not that they CAN’T treat women like human beings, it is that they CHOOSE not to. And I’m not willing to excuse them treating humans like trash because they can’t help themselves.
For me, ‘crazy’ means roughly the same as ‘sick’ in that I can’t change the way my brain works any more than someone else could change their allergies to peanuts or the fact that they have cancer. It’s close to a question of identity, because it’s a relatively continuous and immutable aspect of being that can be adapted to and worked around, but not fundamentally changed.
Assholes and trolls (and MRAs, I would argue) know what they are doing. It’s not that they are genetically predisposed to treat people like crap and unable to change their behavior. And it is true that we consider a wider range of people as actual people these days, when historically we might not. There was a time, for example, when people of color and women were not considered fully human and worth decent treatment and compassion. More recently the same has been true of people with mental illnesses. I don’t see any reason to set some chronological end point to discovering the fundamental humanity of people unlike myself.
Fair enough, and I agree with you. It’s a discussion I would welcome, here (as presumptuous as that is of me) and elsewhere.
But I also think that there is a wide, definitive, easily recognizable gap between raising a question for honest discussion, as you have here, and pitching a wobbly at someone suggesting that some word you used is considered a slur here (even if it isn’t considered such in lots of other communities you participate in) and won’t be tolerated. Disagreement and dissent is good and healthy and refreshing, and I always welcome it. Petulance, not so much.
Ugh, the sleep deprivation… I’m having some second thoughts about my use of “sick” there, but I hope the point was clear. I can keep throwing words at it until I dig myself a ramp to the surface if necessary…
Um.
I don’t like losing people whose comments I liked reading.
I fully agree that calling stupid assholes crazy is an insult to people struggling with actual mental illness. I’ve got major depression and generalized anxiety disorder, for which I take a big handful of non-red pills every day. Yes, ‘crazy’ is a common usage. So are other kinds of slurs we don’t use here.
But, there’s a massive difference between “The problem with what you just said is…” and “Fuck you”. Calling people out on something that they’ve never thought about before is different than calling people out for their willful shitheadist ideology.
@Carelyblue
*grimaces*
okay, here it goes.
1) as has been pointed out many, many, many, many times before, plenty of people are assholes. Mentally ill people, being people, can also be assholes. But having a mental illness does not make one an asshole. Being an asshole does.
2) because, good god, it is rude to speculate on people’s mental health. Just focus on what they’re actually saying.
Getting called out on stuff =/= attacked.
YMMV, but I feel like this is just because there are a lot of people commenting, so if a quarter of people respond it will still seem like a lot, even if everyone’s just saying it once.
Even if certain MRAs express the hatred they do because of mental pathology (which many undoubtedly do), it doesn’t mean that they aren’t responsible for their actions. Being crazy doesn’t get you off the hook for being an asshole, even if it can sometimes explain why you’re an asshole in the particular way you are.
I’d wager a decent sum that a significantly greater proportion of MRAs are psychopaths compared to the general populaton. I mean, some of them you can pretty much go down the list and check off symptoms. So, yes, predisposed to treat people like crap. Still responsible for their actions.
Ok, first, for those reasonably discussing why “crazy” is ableist, start here — http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/05/17/guest-post-from-rmj-ableist-word-profile-crazy/
Actually, just go read around on FWD, it (was, so sad they’re gone) an excellent primer in feminism and disability 101 (and more than 101).
Second, “being a decent human being 101” means not doubling down when told what you just said was offensive.
Third, we joke about alcoholism? Or is that a reference to Cassandra’s “I don’t like whiskey, wtf Scotish genes?” comment? Because joking about yourself is always acceptable. And we mention drinking? Yes, many of us enjoy the occasional drink, myself included. You’re basically asking an established group to scrub all mention of a generally benign, common, social activity. Like, we have people here who have, or had, eating disorders, they skip discussions of exercise, because most people can discuss exercise as a benign activity much of society engages in. I’m glad you’re sober now, but, as others have already said, you’re going to need to learn to cope with general mentions of alcohol, society is full of it and by and large it’s benign.
Fourth, OH NOES WE AREN’T EDUCATING THE MASSES!! Guess what? No one, no one is required to. You want to learn, good, ask for resources, ask polite questions and go read the resources you’re given. Don’t have a small fit that people aren’t inclined to hold your hand. In fact, Derailing for Dummies! Some of us are, in fact, willing to answer non-offensive questions.
Like, I don’t mind pointing people to trans* 101 stuff, or explaining things, but ask what’s in my pants and I’m either going to side step the question, if you have a history of being here in good faith and the context is relatively benign; ignore you completely, good faith question but crass; explain why that isn’t your damned business, people who’re being transphobic but aren’t blantanty awful about it; or tell you to fuck off, transphobic assholes
(hi Joe, you can continue kindly fucking off).
Safe space though *dies laughing*. Nope. You may well find yourself telling a troll to shove it wear the sun don’t shine because as I said above, no one, fucking no one, has to educate others at the expense of themselves. Particularly not the MRAs who come here to tell us how wrong we are and how women really are terrible.
Athywren — pronouns! Did you prefer feminine ones? Or care to join me in the land of gender neutral pronouns? I use ze/zir myself and can attest that people here will respect it if you want neutral pronouns, or feminine ones, or masculine ones (heck, I’ve never seen anyone ask, but I’d bet that we could learn another language’s pronouns if someone wanted those)
One more related thought, that it’s not like anyone is asking for all that much, not really. Go ahead and think that it’s completely absurd or hysterical or overly sensitive to think of “crazy” as a slur. Argue that with your friends and family, write blog posts about it, make posters and bumper stickers and tshirts. Call everyone you meet on the street “crazy” for any reason you choose. No one is stopping you.
Only it’s one of those things that has been decided to be beyond the pale, by consensus of the community, because a conscious decision has been made not to dismiss the concerns of those who are bothered by it. You are welcome to think it’s trivial, and do no more than pay lip service to it here, and gods know that plenty of feminists disagree with other feminists on a wide variety of issues and still manage to engage with each other.
When and where I was a kid, it was considered completely unremarkable for folks to use “that’s so gay” and “that’s so retarded” as slurs. I’ll admit (and own up to the fact) that it took me longer to purge “retarded” from my insult vocabulary than “gay,” but I never looked on doing so as some kind of abridgement of my free speech abilities and I’m honestly puzzled as to why insulting those with mental and cognitive illnesses by using common descriptors for them as slurs is somehow less problematic or more defensible than doing so with descriptors for someone’s skin color, or ethnic background, or primary sex characteristics, or sexual orientation.
It bothers people here whose opinions I respect and whose posts I enjoy reading so I would adapt to it, because even if I did get some kind of pleasure out of calling people I disagree with “crazy” or “retarded” or somesuch, doing so would deprive me of the greater pleasure of engaging with a community that I otherwise quite enjoy.
Er, bad Argenti, y u miss words?!
That last line should say — “if someone wanted us to use those”
Also, this is spot on “Still responsible for their actions.” Gods do I know that my (lack of) mental health is not a get out of jail free card. Might make people more inclined to forgive, but doesn’t magically mean they have to. Assholery is still assholery.
Mental illness gives a history to some actions, but not an excuse.
I’m never going to be okay with language that hurts marginalized groups. It contributes to the systems of oppression that we inhabit and as such hurts real people and people get to be angry about that. I’m grateful to everyone who has called me out on the oppressive things I’ve said here and elsewhere.
Did you know that calling an argument “weak” is ableist?
Yes, this. In my opinion, a call out should be treated like a learning opportunity (sorry if that sounds like a cliche from a corny after school special). No matter how gentle a call out is done, it will probably sting a bit. Nobody likes hearing they made a mistake. I’ve seen call outs at other places, though, that were unnecessarily mean, and I don’t think “I was making a call out” is an excuse to verbally abuse someone. There is gray area in all this, too. I guess that has to be judged on a case by case basis.
If I believe someone made an honest mistake, I will try to make the call out more like a helpful tidbit of advice. I do believe that intent really is important, and that the “Intent, it’s fucking magic!” post by genderbitch causes more harm than good. All of the subjects we discuss are complex, and complex topics do have a lot of nuance. Carleyblue, you asked some serious questions, and I don’t think it’s wrong for you to ask them , especially on something like how MRA’s can claim it’s ableist to call them out on their misogyny. That’s above the 101 level, so it’s understandable to have questions about it.
Now if someone is being intentionally hurtful, and this is usually pretty obvious, then I won’t cut the person so much slack. Perhaps social justice needs another new catchphrase “Nuance, it’s also important!”
Also, if anybody is bothered about something and is afraid to speak their mind, please do speak up and let us talk about it. A lot of times communication online doesn’t work as well as in real life because we can’t see each other face to face to really get the full meaning of what other people say. If someone feels like they’re being shut out of a clique, most of us would want to know and see if we could do something to make them feel more welcome. And if you’d feel more comfortable talking about something in the forums, feel free to use them if you feel awkward saying something here at the main website.
As usual, other people have said stuff way better than I could. I hate losing (non-troll) commenters too, but I don’t know a way around it that doesn’t end up hurting the people who are already hurting the most — or requiring them to always have the patience of saints/ceiling cat/the Flying Spaghetti Monster/whatever, which just isn’t fair.
Odds are that a significant percentage of MRAs do have mental health issues, since that would be true of pretty much any group of people. It’s for shit sure though that any men
with mental health issues who find their way to the MRM are not going to get the help that they need, which is tragic. In any case, I feel pretty certain that most MRAs are just terrible people.
Hugs and free kitten belly rubs* to anyone who needs them.
*I am lucky to have to cats who LIKE getting belly rubs, so this is not as threatening as it might sound!
@thebionicmommy
::shrugs:: I assumed the point of that was that the (ableism in this case) is still hurtful whether it’s meant to be or not, not that saying something harmful without intent is the same level of jerk-ishness as saying something harmful to intentionally cause hurt.
Yes, in this case, I agree. The ableism of using “crazy” to dismiss MRA’s has the same harm regardless of intent. The original call outs in this thread were fine, too. In this case, the argument of “intent, it’s fucking magic” does work. It can be misused, though, to say that it’s right to be just as harsh to someone making an honest mistake as someone who is simply being an ass for the fun of it.