So the Men’s Rightsers over on Reddit are getting worked up over the evils of women “friend zoning” men, and one especially angry fellow by the name of andreipmbcn has a warning for the ladies: if they don’t watch themselves, the men’s rights movement might just rise up and make friend zoning illegal:
What this means is not exactly clear to me. Would women actually be required to have sex with all men who are aggressively “nice” towards them? Who knows. But judging from the dozens of upvotes andre’s comment got, Reddit MRAs like the sound of it.
(Thanks to Cloudiah for pointing me to this lovely comment.)
@blackbloc the same thing applies to the contradiction.- the entirety of the natural numbers mathematics is a given in the original proof, too.
Blackbloc: It wasn’t the falsity of “Washington is the capital of Sweden” which did it, it was the combination of premises which were – contradictory. Point still stands: You need a contradiction, not mere falsity.
Look, there are lots of propositions which you cannot know to be true or false a priori. You need, for instance, scientific investigations in order to prove or disprove them. However, if it were the case with ANY false proposition that you could reason your way from that proposition to anything at all, it would be possible to test the falsity of any statement whatsoever (including scientific ones) by checking whether you could conclude, for instance, that I’m the queen by using that proposition as a premise. But as we all know, we can’t replace scientific investigation with such a silly test.
Obviously, if I KNOW that P is false (which is a different matter from P merely being false, and that’s probably where the confusion stems from), it’s because I know that not-P, and from the combination of P and not-P I could prove that I’m the queen. Because the combination of P and not-P is a contradiction. But without a contradiction, with mere falsity, I can’t prove that I’m the queen.
Butbutbut, everyone knows that all men exist in a state of always wanting sex with any woman that they don’t find repellent. So if he’s already chosen to spend time with her, this whole step of “make sure she knows that he wants something other than to be friends” must be redundant, and it would be unreasonable for the law to require him to perform it, when he could be spending his valuable time convincing her how nice he is.
Titianblue: Yeah I just accepted that false mathematical statements were contradictions for the sake of argument, although it’s debated what the relationship between math and logic is exactly.
Damn, I shouldn’t post when in a hurry: Sorry, Blackblock agreed with me, it was only Titianblue who didn’t.
And you can call me what you like, although the general agreement is “she”.
Gotta run!
Thanks – that makes it all clear. I knew I was getting confused somewhere.
I was a recursion theorist so the natural numbers are always an accepted given.
Musta made her saving throw.
Seriously, “nice to a woman to get a relationship” is NOT some ritual or something with guaranteed results. Every woman’s different, and they reserve the right to be Not Into You.
I hate to keep banging this particular drum, but the problem here is once again certain men not understanding that women are people (rather than sex and affection vending machines). If they understood that women were people they’d understand that we have preferences and whether or not we like someone is a bit more complicated than “X helped me build my bookcase”. Sometimes we don’t like someone no matter how “nice” they are! Sometimes we think they’re just awesome and want to be besties but don’t want to date them! Sometimes we like them, but not in a particularly intense way, just in the way we like all people who’re basically pleasant to be around, and there are lots of people like that – we can’t date all of them.
There is no code that you can enter into the machine to get what you want, guys, because people don’t work like that.
Oh man, not sure if anybody else pointed out, but that yahoo’s post hit the /worstof subreddit. The comment scores basically reversed and the blatant misogyny is being actively called out.
It’s pretty great.
I think what also gets missed in the friendzone conversation is the idea that sometimes, a guy being rejected is nothing to do with him. Sometimes women have other things to take care of and don’t have time for a relationship. Sometimes women are enjoying being single. Sometimes women aren’t into sexual relationships. Sometimes women have made other plans for the nearer future and starting a relationship would be unfair to the potential new partner. Sometimes women have responsibilities to others, and while the guy might be great and she might have chosen to date him, her responsibilities and his wants or needs conflict in ways that make the relationship impossible.
Usually, when I explain this to guys who think friendzone is a thing, the fact that she made a choice based on criteria that has absolutely nothing to do with them gets them more pissed than her having chosen someone else.
How dare you suggest they’re not the center of the universe to whatever woman they want to be with!
Lol. Or they could like, tell someone they’re interested when they’re interested instead of hanging around for months or years just hoping she’ll one day magically read his mind. And not only will she be a mind reader, but she’ll have been harboring secret feelings for HIM hoping HE would read HER mind and they can live happily ever after in a totally non-communicative relationship where everyone’s desires are totally fulfilled immediately without talking at all because they are SUPAH in synch SOUL MATES.
It’s only “not offering solutions” if you don’t qualify these as solutions:
-Don’t expect her to read your mind
-Don’t treat her like a sex vending machine
-Don’t act like a “friend” to people who have expressed that they have no romantical/sexual interest in you. It makes them think you are cool with just being friends
-Don’t wallow in your “unrequited” love for months/years without telling her, but acting like a “friend” because she will think you just want to be friends
-Don’t expect her to read your mind
-Don’t expect her to read your mind
If you’re interested in someone, tell them so. And if they aren’t interested, take them at their word and stop acting like some martyred doormat. It’ll suck for you (general Nice GuyTM “you”) and it will just make her either annoyed if she can tell you’re just doing it in hopes of fucks, or make her think you’re fine with being friends. What kills me about the guys who don’t even tell someone they’re interested but insist that they’ve been friend zoned is that it’s not even like treating women like sex vending machines. It’s like… trying to use a vending machine in France and getting pissed off when not only will the vending machine not take US Dollars, but it won’t magically get them out of your wallet for you either.
SO is “the liberal media”, and “the FEMA Camps” and the Jewish Bankers Rule The World” very real to a lot of people.
Doesn’t make it true, just something they believe.
Plus the whole “friend-zoning” myth ignores that women have been socialised into believing that they have to let any man they are rejecting down easy, to worry about hurting their (the man’s) feelings. And so all those “it’s not you, it’s me”, “can’t we just be friends?”, “I like you really but …” conversations are the ones women feel socially compelled to have when really they just weant to say “No. I’m not into you. Please go away.”
And women also know that if they actually said “No. I’m not into you. Please go away.” a whole lot of these Nice Guys would turn remarkably nasty in the blink of an eye.
And Falconer wins again!
Actually, this is the kind of attitude that makes sense to me. Those who look at women this way tend to have little or no real experience with them as people, and so they buy into the PUA mindset because it operates according to the kind of by the numbers, transactional view of the world so common to D&D or some video games. It reduces the complexity of human emotions and interpersonal relationships to who has the most hit points. Which also explains why some of them get so ragey when they don’t have the success they expect, because they totally did everything ‘right’ (they said the words and performed the gestures), so it’s not fair that it didn’t ‘work’.
It’s also why the PUA mindset is also so damaging; instead of being gently but firmly taught that people are not like video games or cookie recipes, PUA “game” just repeats the same old failure to them. It’s not that the problem is the very idea that all you have to do is say an incantation and wave your hands in a particular set of ways, it’s that you didn’t have the right incantations or the right gestures! (So just send me $19.95, plus shipping and handling, and I’ll send you my copyrighted video to give you all the lines and moves guaranteed* to work! – *guaranteed to work with the actresses I’ve paid to be in this video with me, anyway)
So the poor, deluded wanna-bes end up start awkwardly (as we all do while trying to figure things out) with the wrong general mindset, and just add resentment and internalized shame, because it TOTALLY worked on that video they watched 500 times.
But yes, the ‘frendzone’, it is NOT. A. THING. Maybe someone you are interested in is interested in someone else. Or interested in you but not as a romantic partner. Or not interested in you at all and just trying to avoid being rude while rejecting you. Or is in the middle of her own life and you really don’t exist for her at all. All are plausible and (I’m sorry if this comes as a shock) all are completely valid because her life does not have to include you in any way that she doesn’t want to, and your wishes ARE NOT RELEVANT!
Or, as my housemate put it, “Ah, yes, the friendzone, that horrible condition where women will talk to you but not sleep with you!”
Aw, thanks, Gillian!
If they admitted that women were people, then they might have to consider that we have feelings that can be hurt too. Like when you’ve been hanging out with someone for months, thinking they were your friend, and the second they find out you broke up with your boyfriend they try to grab your boobs and you realize they were just waiting for that chance. /still pissed after all these years
Aw man, lumi, that sucks.
I know what it’s like to be still pissed about something way less than sexual battery after all these years, and it’s not happy. Jedi hugs if you want them!
“Sorry, bro, women are not machines you put kindness coins into until sex falls out.” <– Saw this quote in a blog and it fits perfectly with this issue. If the only reason you are nice to her is to have sex with her, you are NOT her friend.
The “friend zone” idea doesn’t hold any emotional resonance for me. If I’m attracted to a woman, I usually either ask her out casually right away, or ignore my attraction because pursuing it makes no sense for other reasons (like, she’s married or in a relationship; or, I’m her supervisor [or vice versa], and dating would create too many ethical issues; or she’s given me no indication that my attraction is reciprocated; etc.). And if the woman I asked out declines my invitation, I just move on, and maintain polite contact with her whenever our paths cross again. I’ve actually had some great friendships and productive professional relationships begin that way.
This is not to say I haven’t suffered from some painful rejections. Sure, I have. But a particular woman’s decision not to date me isn’t a character flaw on her part. She’s entitled to her reasons, whatever they are.
And besides, the idea of lingering around a woman I was “secretly” attracted to seems like a huge waste of time, if nothing else. There are tons of single, heterosexual, cis-gendered women in the world, and there’s no sense in me depriving myself of the opportunity to meet a new potential lover, mentor, friend, or whatever else becomes of our meeting, by fixating on and lying to some woman I’ve put on a pedestal she has no desire to be on in the first place.
Thanks, Falconer. I do have a better experience – I was friends with a guy for a couple years and only found out that he was attracted to me after I had fallen in total lust (love came later) with his roommate. Things were awkward for a few months, then he got over it, we’re still friends a decade later, and I’m married to the hot roomie.
I just can’t imagine how anyone could think having more friends is a bad thing. The whole “friendzone” thing just seems like more of the “women aren’t people” thing. Just objects to use. Yuck.
That’s just…how would that work, exactly? How long would one be allowed to be friendly to a man before being legally required to have sex with them? Would there be an escape clause if you told every man you know, “I’m not going to sleep with you” every day, like, instead of “good morning?”
I don’t think everyone who has been involved with other people (i.e. not a hermit) has “friendzoned” people.
And so what?
Exactly. What’s wrong with having friends? These guys act like women are some alien species or something.
Once, when I was young and Internet-naïve, I made the mistake of going on a message board calling “Ask a Dating Expert” because I wanted advice on following up after a date I’d had, wanting to communicate that I wasn’t interested in pursuing a romantic relationship but I would be interested in keeping in touch and being friends. And I stressed that I really wanted to do this in a way that respected his feelings, because, you know, I’m a nice person and I care about people’s feelings.
My mistake was that this “Ask a Dating Expert” forum was actually a gathering place for friend zoney Nice Guys, and they all “yelled” at me for daring to not want to hurt someone’s feelings and liking them as a person without necessarily wanting to screw them. One guy even told me what I was doing was “pulling the wings off a beautiful butterfly.” Good Lord. I only met the guy twice in my life, and I was also trying to be careful not to assume that he was all that into *me.” I just wanted to be a decent person and be honest with someone.