NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.
Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.
Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.
FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:
[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.
Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”
But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.
Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.
[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).
And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?
When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.
You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?
But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)
Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?
I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.
None of these things are inherently male traits.
Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.
Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.
The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.
Says you. Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.
And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.
The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.
Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.
The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with.
In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.
The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.
Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?
So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”
“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”
By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.
At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.
Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.
“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.”
If we tried to explain the concept of topping from the bottom I wonder if it would break his brain.
I could try ^.~
They’re like really bad, overly heavy handed salesmen. You want this timeshare! No, really you do. Think of how worthless your life will be without this timeshare. The neighbors will judge you if you don’t get double glazing and nobody will want to be your friend! Now give me money (sex).
Another textbook recommendation:
“Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation,” by L. David Mech (Editor) & Luigi Boitani (Editor).
Doubt the sock will actually read it, but the rest of y’all might like it.
Boys ‘n’ girls
And automation
Chromosomes
Designer jeans
Chimpanzees
And human beings
Talking Heads – The Facts of Life
—
You’re a little wrong, there, with the notion
It’s misapplied knowledge making up that potion
Trying to rub it in to create a commotion
Only proves it’s shit you’re passing of as lotion
Boys and girls, lion, wolf and lover with devotion
all do different deeds for different dreams in this wide, vast ocean
A man needs to breed too to spread his seed, that carnal need
and self preservation, eatin’, shittin’, feedin’, beating
vague truths for vague thoughts
that offer little, gives us naught
“He is looking for good folk
to stick it in, the bloke, to pass on the yoke
let someone else wear the alpha cloak
down the line of evolution that we climb”
tells us nothing particular about your chap
So why is it a different logic trap
When it’s a chick lacking a dick?
Strong is strong is strong is clever, true, smart, with brains and guts and heart
a single word that you have stretched
to cover more than an ample chest
My boss ain’t strong, he’s a very weak she, and I do everything she tells to me
on account of it being her business, see?
The officer on the street who walks his beat with tired feet
I greet
and when she asks me how my day has gone, if crime is near or far
I make sure to answer: “Yes Ma’am, officah!”
I can take her.
I’m fast.
Only – she’s got a gun, and the law was built to last more than the blast of two fists against someone
beaten up by a rock in a sock.
When I find a man I find attractive (Who has a need to breed, eat and feed); I call bullshit on your shit that I Must Submit
What of it?
“Authority” is not something someone merely has, on account of some grab bag genetic game
That’s more of the same, lame, inane banter about strong being strength being truth and responsibilties and a BA in marketing that got you that manegerial position.
Now, if the fella’s nice, and has beautiful eyes and a way of wording the world I don’t immediately despise
There’s a fair chance he’ll… the end of this rhyme involves “thighs” and “Sighs”.
So what does that tell us, about the Way of the World?
… Fibi likes fucking, people, and boys and girls? Hardly a statement about the nature of all this Blue Planet stuff – your wayward theories offer… not nearly enough!
To the victor goes the spoils of war
and the conquered weep at the things they endure
But
Fas est et ab hoste doceri
And you don’t have to feel too weary
There’s a difference between courtship, relationship, marathons and whips
Patience wins only in games were the lines aren’t bleary
the conditions nebolous, the fog of war shrouding every blip
And by the by, your tired trite truths are still worn and dreary
strength again means much more than what that one might intend – yes, I get it, glib
to re-quip the point
(Now you know how we feel every time someone busts into this joint
and declares: “It’s about making others submit!”
It’s still bullshit.
And the officer still has a gun, which means zie doesn’t need to be too strong
Is this so hard to understand? Can you be so very wrong?)
But alpha was strong! And fit is strength! Your wit is for shit because that is fucking it
once again your bit
pretends to gainsay some truth, in a single quick hit
and you use “Strength” to be strong and ALL OTHER THINGS
BULLSHIT!
If it’s the last man standing, with the patience to outlast
the besieging armies looking to lay claim
on some ovary to replant their seeds and partake in the game
I would wager
Easily, casually, on against you, you hater
That the smart man
Is the man
Who just waits somewhere warm
While the bombs drop and the war rages on
And once nuclear winter wipes out nine tenths of this human race of the face of this planet, blue,
this smart, unattractive, not-fit yet patient man will come out of his bunker, wrapped up in his conceit
ask with a smile a mile wide
for some nice broad to part her thighs same length
And, being smart, he won’t demand that she submit
because he’ll have gotten it
You get further with honey and patience
Than authority and raging impotentent taff passed off as truth
But that’d be going against the logic of your chain
and your brain
might not accept that your defeat was measured the moment you forgot
Strength means one thing, and not
Everything. And if someone submits, and bows down to your power, scraping every hour to even earn enough leeway for you to give her a plower
… You’ll wake up one morning with a knife in your chest. And then, some smart man, who didn’t, will get the one laugh – the last.
The best.
—
I’m afraid that God has no master plan
He only takes — what he can use
Talking Heads – Facts of Life
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=the+friendzone&rlz=1C1KMZB_enAU536AU536&espv=210&es_sm=93&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=tr9YUrz9EMSjkQX9iYAg#es_sm=93&espv=210&hl=en&q=the+friend+zone&spell=1&tbm=isch&um=1
The friendzone… A place where many men live who were not fit enough, smart enough or attractive enough. They usually possess patience, sensitivity, love and devotion, but not strength.
Strength is not about muscle or hairy chests. Bill gates had the strength to conquer the digital world. Steven hawkins had the strength to conquer the physics world, despite being physically handicapped. Successful people make it based on their strength, their inner courage and the strive to never give up.
I didn’t state an Alpha has to be a male. The female Alpha hyena will have sex with other females to show dominance. In same sex couples there will still be a dominant partner. I also never stated in my first comment that you needed to be an Alpha to be strong, just that you need the strength to come back to a woman who wants a powerful man. And a powerful man does not have to be an Alpha.
@Athywren: A pride of lions, a pack of wolves, a herd of cows, a brood of chickens, a troupe of chimpanzees, a society of humans… call it what you like, we are still part of the animal kingdom and we still work with animal instincts.
I wanted to reply to Fibinachi but I got lost in all the poetry without a point.
Two question, If you were stranded on an deserted island with a choice of only one partner for the rest of your life would you choose the redneck hunter/survivor or the sensitive doctor?
What are the top three qualities you like about your current boyfriend/husband? I’m sure scared or passive will not be the top of the list for them.
Oh dear, you said the previous one was going to be the last one. I’ll have to deduct 2 points.
I would totally choose the Doctor. Who wouldn’t?
Okay, who invited the stupid in?
Cloudiah — ten please!
And hmm…we’ll pretend my last partner was a cis man and I a cis woman for the sake of playing the game. Words chosen cuz VtM is on that list, as is our shared obscure musical tastes, and…uh…bedroom activities. And sense of humor, and the non-judgmental caring, and taking my insanity in stride, and letting my insane and wary self make the first move and fuck that’s way more than three!
So let’s see, I guess bedroom activities would sorta be this “strong” thing, cuz *masochist* and thus a certain level of physical strength is required…except you have to ask Very, Very Nicely to use it…
Ah fuck, I’m topping from the bottom and being confusing huh?
(Anyone in Boston or NYC? EA and Birthday Massacre are doing noon shows the two days before Thanksgiving and I have no one to go with and WAAAAY too many people to go solo)
I’m sorry, but you’re just never going to convince us that actual submission of any kind can be consensual. Probably because we’re not the ones who are supporting rape here. So GFY
All men who women don’t want to fuck possess patience, sensitivity, love, and devotion. This is totally true and not at all a pathetic attempt at self-justification.
Well if I’m supposed to play this silly game based on “logic”, then I would choose the doctor. Given that I was raised for most of my life “off the grid”, I am quite capable of providing for myself, and having someone with a medical background would be infinitely more useful than a secondary provider. However people don’t pick their mates on animalistic or utilitarian whims like that, they choose people who they actually like to share time with, who have similar interests, and who fits their idea of attractive. Women aren’t universally attracted to power anymore than men are universally attracted to weakness, if you don’t understand that then you lack a fundamental understanding of relationship dynamics.
Also, the pop science variety of evo psych is bunk fyi
Always the silly hypothetical scenarios as the last desperate illustration of a bullshit idea. Sometimes I read deserted island other times it’s desert island. Which was the original? Does anyone know?
I think it’s desert island and the deserted is implied, because surviving on a tropical island wouldn’t be all that hard.
You’re all welcome to my dungeon anytime…
Is that what they call the basement in your corner of the world?
Desert Island most likely, given that it means “an island undisturbed by mankind”, though many people seem to think it means an island without vegetation on it (i.e. a desert on an island). A deserted island would be an island that used to be populated but then was abandoned.
I’ve heard that “desert island” as an idiom actually means “deserted island,” not “island made of desert.” So it could be any kind of island, really.
Thankfully I’m not trapped on an island at all, so what I’d choose in that situation is rather irrelevant. All it could possibly prove is that under different circumstances, people might do different things.
Seriously, it reads as if I’m about to be trapped there for all eternity or something.
I’d want a doctor. The rest of the stuff I can handle myself.
(Cue another round of the Nice Guy’s Lament.)
For instance, if I were trapped at the bottom of a well and my choice of companions was my soulmate or a guy with the ability to stretch his arms to any length, I might make a rather different choice than I would normally.
Alright… I fucked up from the beginning… I tried to use logic on a women’s page.
No, the problem came from the part where you tried to use pseudoscience to justify a bigoted standpoint and rationalize stereotypes.