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On Reddit, a woman explains to other women why men hate them

Wonder Woman: Always alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.
Wonder Woman: Forever alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.

NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.

Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.

Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.

FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:

[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.

Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”

But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.

Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.

[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?

When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.

You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?

But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)

Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?

I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

None of these things are inherently male traits.

Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.

Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Says you.  Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.

And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.

The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.

Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.

The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with. 

In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?

So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”

By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.

At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.

Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.

“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.

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emilygoddess
emilygoddess
11 years ago

Shit, I started skimming before I got to the insect bit. That’s fucked up.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
11 years ago

And appearance wise, I dig HAIR. Most women today don’t but I do. Preferrably mustaches not really beards. And hairy chests! Why do SOME women wish to control men?

Feminists are against beards and mustaches? That’s news to me, especially when a lot of feminists have facial hair themselves. If you are attracted to hairy, burly guys, that’s great. I like that, too. Some women like smaller men who shave. And then some women are attracted to butch women, while some like femme women. Everyone has their own preferences.

I see times changing. Maybe not in this generation and it was either Tesla or Einstein who predicted in the future that the world would be run by females. I call it “the rule of the insects.”

If women are insects, then I want to be a roach. Yes, roaches are gross, but they can survive almost anything.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
11 years ago

I found a world ruled by insects, and it doesn’t look too bad.

Ally S
11 years ago

Women who wish to control men and men do not want to be controlled. I do not want to control a man but I want him to listen and take into consideration of what I have to say.

Men today are struggling with their masculinity and to be honest, I see men becoming more effeminate because of the stupid American society. I want a man a MANLY man. Today’s women are castrating the men mentally and physically by removing the man’s pride. No too many people realize this but from what I heard from some men is the resentment they have of women. Women today just can’t make up their damn minds of what they want in men.

No, masculinity isn’t going away – it’s just that femininity for men is gaining acceptance. There is no zero-sum game here. Also, I’m pretty sure I know what kind of people I’m attracted to, thanks.

Now why don’t men do this to women? You know change what they think women should look like in terms of appearance?

Ah, yes. Objectification is definitely not a thing. Nor is the sexual dehumanization and body policing of women.

I as a woman want a manly man, a man who is respectful but yet still firm a man to take of both of us. And appearance wise, I dig HAIR. Most women today don’t but I do. Preferrably mustaches not really beards. And hairy chests! Why do SOME women wish to control men? They want to feel empowered over the other gender that for years was seen as the dominant sex of the two.

Pardon me, Ms. Exceptional Woman, but no one is stopping or even wants to stop you from desiring a man who has a specific personality. And I’m sorry to say that you don’t have any right to impose your preferences on other straight women. Also, wanting to be with a man who isn’t masculine in a domineering and controlling way is not the same as wanting to control men.

I see times changing. Maybe not in this generation and it was either Tesla or Einstein who predicted in the future that the world would be run by females. I call it “the rule of the insects.”

You believe Tesla’s bizarre predictions of the future? The ones that are based on nothing but fear-mongering and baseless assertions about the nature of women? lol okay then

And even though as a woman I sometimes see myself as someone who hates women.

Good for you. Now you can go ahead and join GirlWritesWhat, Sunshine Mary, and Christina Hoff Sommers in their never-ending quest to be accepted into the Boy’s Club.

djmdmejd
djmdmejd
11 years ago

There are a lot of guys posing as women in the Reddit thread.

STRENGTH
STRENGTH
11 years ago

Pretty simple… Women want a strong man. The more you love a women after she wrongs you the more you grow stronger. She wants to dig deep into your core emotions… She wants you to overpower her, fuck her, OWN HER. You can’t do that being a pussy who cries in the corner every time a women acts out her own desires and they don’t include you.

grumpycatisagirl
grumpycatisagirl
11 years ago

I have another word for your salad: NO.

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

Now that’s a hilariously false dichotomy. Either be a rapist or a doormat? What happened to the “mature adult male” option?

thebobgoblin
11 years ago

STRENGTH,

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

katz
11 years ago

Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

Dear god, she’s writing a hurt/comfort fanfic for the entire human race.

STRENGTH
STRENGTH
11 years ago

It’s evolution. We are just animals, like the lion or wolf. The Alpha of a pride or pack is the Alpha for his strength, intelligence and ability to survive. The females of the pack submit to him knowing her children have the best chance of survival with his genetics.

A female needs to breed, it’s one of her primal instincts, right after self preservation. She is looking for strong traits, the kind of man that will pass on strong genes, and also one who will then protect those children.

Athywren, it has nothing to do with rape. You submit to stronger people every day in your life. Your boss, your parents, the police officer. These are all your choices to do so, you could stand against them but you don’t. If you find a man that has this kind of authority and he is attractive to your desire you will submit to him too.

Making a man hate you can only happen if he cares in the first place, and if he keeps coming back after that then the woman knows he has the strength she desires. It’s a cruel game, but it’s always the last man standing that wins.

Men if you can’t be attractive be fit, if you can’t be fit be smart. If you still fail, marry a single woman with kids. She is still looking for a provider.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

I…huh…what?

My brain is stuck on how, near as I could tell, my alpha loaches have all been female. The rest is gibberish. It all adds to “woman are naturally submissive” and please, do tell that to all the dominatices of the world.

Oh and the female cory catfish does decide whether to mate when he offers, and GUYS!! One of mine did!! I have eggs! That are probably fertile!

cloudiah
11 years ago

I am way more interested in your cory eggs than I am in what our little strongman is spewing.

kittehserf
11 years ago

I smell sock with this troll.

STRENGTH
STRENGTH
11 years ago

Last one… If women never submitted to a man then all sex would be considered rape.

sarahlizhousespouse
11 years ago

@STRENGTH

Dude, I like dogs, wolves, and other furry creatures that run on four legs, but I don’t take my social cues from them. Partially that’s because we aren’t closely related, and also because it’s somewhat vulgar to go around sniffing the asses of others.

So, why don’t you take some “me” time, visit a local library and thumb through a basic textbook on biology. I’ll recommend one for you. How does that sound?

It’s a McGraw Hill Text. Biology, 9th edition (or a more recent edition if you can get your hands on one) by Sylvia S. Mader. That should be a good start for elementary biology.

Now run along and get some reading done.

grumpycatgirl
grumpycatgirl
11 years ago

*All* sex? Even when sex that doesn’t even involve women at all? I won’t get into the illogic of that statement even when the sex does involve women . . . but, well, you’re just weird.

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

It’s evolution. We are just animals, like the lion or wolf. The Alpha of a pride or pack is the Alpha for his strength, intelligence and ability to survive. The females of the pack submit to him knowing her children have the best chance of survival with his genetics.

All but one of those females are the alpha male’s daughters. They also submit to the alpha female. We’re not pack animals. Social =/= pack. Maybe you should learn about evolution and wolves before you try to educate others about them?

Athywren, it has nothing to do with rape. You submit to stronger people every day in your life.

1) Submitting to someone is not synonymous with being overpowered by them. If you have to overpower them, they haven’t submitted and you are a rapist. You may have forced them into submission, so I can see justifying it to yourself, but being forced into submission is not the same as willingly submitting to someone.
2) No, not really, I live my life largely unmolested by others. But, again, willingly accepting outside authorities is not the same as being overpowered.

Last one… If women never submitted to a man then all sex would be considered rape.

…sometimes, women actually want to have sex, and don’t simply submit to it. You do realise that, don’t you?

Seriously, try the mature adult male option. It’s far more successful that this nonsense ever will be.

And on matters that I’m actually interested in, hooray for probably fertile fish eggs!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

Question – since Mr C does not naturally grow any chest hair, am I supposed to divorce him? Or force him to go get hair implanted so he can be more MANLY? Are all the men who aren’t macho and hairy just shit out of luck?

(On the troll’s attempt to impersonate a woman – must try harder, dude.)

katz
11 years ago

He can borrow some of Doad’s. We have a surplus over here.

Λυνα
Λυνα
11 years ago

I never got the whole “alpha males are the only ones women are interested in” thing. I like guys who are more compassionate and emotional and physically are a bit chubby, which is of course different from what someone else might like. There is no universally attractive type, everyone has their own.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

And I like men who’re skinny, pretty, and with no hair on their torso at all other than pubic hair. And apparently katz likes hairy guys, and I’m sure that we also have commenters who like fat guys, nerdy guys, guys who are serious athletes, guys who read a lot, and so on. Women are individuals who each have their own preferences – there’s a shocker.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

STRENGTH (ha) is another moron who’s got that Alpha shit all wrong. Huh.

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

I’m sure that we also have commenters who like fat guys, nerdy guys, guys who are serious athletes, guys who read a lot, and so on.

I like female guys!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

I say that women are not “naturally submissive” and get a reply about “if women never submitted”. The stupid, it fucking burns.

Let me use little words.

Women, being people, are sometimes submissive, and some times not. No gender is always submissive, or always dominating. Individuals may be one or the other.

Less little words ahead.

Or they may be both! Switches exist!

——

So after the ich and velvet incident I was left with three cories in the 55g, and after a few batches of infertile eggs in the 29g it occurred to me that the fertile batches were from before the second male died, and since albino cory males are often infertile, my remaining boy was probably shooting blanks. Wanting cory babies, and having determined that the three remaining cories in the 55g were all the same gender, I set out to get a mating pair. Stupid me thought my babies where boys and bought an absolutely gorgeous girl (who is, sadly, camera shy), well, I get her home and lo and behold, my babies are the same size. So now I have four girls. Problem here is that immature cories are all the same size, and the mature males are not much bigger, so it’s easy enough to be sure if it’s a girl, but declaring “it’s a boy!” is a bit trickier. As in, I wasn’t entirely sure I had managed to get boys until last night when, among my computer hacking, I looked up to see the mating dance!

Woke up to a batch of eggs and one of my girls with an egg sac under her, looking for a place to stick it. Cory eggs are sticky, they attach them to surfaces, plants in the wild, glass and apparently PVC in tanks. Get home frm the shop and OHAI I have 50+ eggs and, amazingly, the danios are not eating them so I don’t have to rush to remove them!

Seeing how the cories in there are all aeneus, and no albinos, and the eggs had time to sit before I got home and they have that…look…I think I’ve got like 50 viable eggs. I don’t figure more than a dozen or so will survive, but it should have teeny tiny fry by this time next week. And the ability to actually see them and squee in 10-14 days (they are TINY at first!)

They aren’t solid white, they’ve got that clear with a tiny white bit inside thing going on, soon enough, if fertile, they should darken.

Updates shall occur!! *gets up and checks* golden brown! We may well have fertile eggs!

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