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On Reddit, a woman explains to other women why men hate them

Wonder Woman: Always alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.
Wonder Woman: Forever alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.

NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.

Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.

Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.

FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:

[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.

Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”

But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.

Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.

[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?

When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.

You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?

But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)

Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?

I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

None of these things are inherently male traits.

Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.

Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Says you.  Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.

And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.

The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.

Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.

The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with. 

In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?

So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”

By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.

At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.

Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.

“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.

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emilygoddess
emilygoddess
11 years ago

*busband = boyfriend/husband hybrid

I like this. I’ve been using “partner”, but every so often people will get confused and upset when it turns out the “partner” I’ve been referring to is a man (which I would understand if it was queer people objecting, but it’s usually not).

freemage
11 years ago

ostara321: My wife works phone-desk in a tech-support center that services medical staff. She has told me she can always tell when a caller is obviously thrown by the fact that they’re asking a woman for help with their computer.

It happens most frequently with older doctors (who, because of past sexism, tend to be heavily skewed towards men), whose understanding of computers is “Magic box that should do this when I do that.” Doctors, almost by training, tend to have a tendency towards hubris–you HAVE to be a bit arrogant, just to have the confidence needed to get the job done in the first place, because if you’re inclined to second-guess yourself, you’ll never stick out a tough treatment.

So you have this guy who has spent the last 40 years of his life practically ‘playing God’ now suddenly having to ask a woman half his age for help with technology. They feel stupid (and really, a good many of their callers are, at least, prone to brain-lock when it comes to computers–as in, being literally unable to type the same password twice in a row), and they take their embarrassment out on the person they’ve called for help.

The company’s policies won’t let them get away with actual verbal abuse, there’s still a lot they can do to make the support personnel miserable–accusations of incompetence, refusing to answer questions, etc.

Auggie
Auggie
11 years ago

Wouldn’t men needing a doormat kind of make them inferior to women in a sense? If strength and independence were male traits, then wouldn’t it be unmanly for a man to depend on half the population to serve him so he can feel “strong”? That would be like someone demanding GameFreak to make a Pokemon game where half the other trainers had level 2 Magikarps, and then whining that GameFreak was preventing you from winning the game and being unfair when they refused.

This all sounds more like a mother and child’s relationship too… Where the kid goes to school and comes home and talks about what they did, and the mother treats them like some super genius that will grow up into an astronaut. However in this case, it would be a full grown man coming home, so it’s more pathetic than cute.

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
11 years ago

See, what I find interesting about wishfuls post is that I’ve spent my entire life being told that men don’t want unambitious women. Why? Because they don’t want to be the sole provider, they want a woman who makes a comparable amount of money (and therefore has a comparable education and career) so that the burden of hardwork to achieve financial and material comfort goals are more evenly spread. Which was supposed to nix me ever having a long term partner.

Which amounts to one of two possibilities. The first being that men as a group have a wide range of needs and desires in finding a life partner. The second being that there is a large group of men seeking partners that give them the best of what ambitious career women can offer but also wanting the best of what ambitous family and home oriented women have to offer. This in spite of the fact that society has yet to achieve a structure to allow women to balance those kinds of demands or to remove the inherent obstacles to the two often conflicting roles women are expected to perform.

So once again, we have advice to women that’s only going to attract a very small (and frankly unnatractive) group of men AND ensure that instability and dissatisfaction are seamlessly integrated into the relationship from the very first hello. Good job!

freemage
11 years ago

Auggie: Your argument there parallels how a lot of Atheists feel about public prayer–if this Big Guy in the Sky is so all-powerful, why is it that He needs constant, public reassurances about His all-powerfulness? (Note: There are, in fact, multiple passages in the Gospels, at least, that argue directly against public adulation of the deity for this very reason.)

Kittehserf
11 years ago

@Carlelyblue:

This brings to mind something I’ve wondered before: Do you think that someone who desires a submissive partner is inherently wrong/ not a nice person. Say, if someone were to say that they could only live with someone who lets them make all the decisions. I have a hard time accepting that that person isn’t just selfish, but maybe there is someone out there for everyone…

Yeah, I have a hard time thinking it’s anything but someone being an arsehole/controlling/projecting their own insecurities. Especially when it’s laden with misogyny, like this shit.

ostara321
ostara321
11 years ago

Yeah, I think there’s a definite tie-in with the customer service thing and verbal abuse directed at women in customer servicey jobs. I think it’s all sort of balled up in that mess too of a lot of customer servicey type jobs being devalued specifically because they are deemed “pink collar”. I think it goes back to the stupid “women don’t work, they just do stupid make work jobs” BS some of the MRAs like Owly spout off. The idea that women can’t possibly work as well as a man – therefore their job is stupid – their job is stupid = they are stupid.

@freemage, hooo lord, that was a lot of my experience at a public library. As someone young-ish and mildly computer competent, I was often solicited to give a lot of help to the people who would just drop in expecting us to fill out their job applications or tax forms for them (instead of making an appointment like a considerate person who realizes we have jobs outside of standing over their shoulder walking them through every click-through agreement form) and I could tell there was some of that indignant attitude from some of the older men, particularly when I couldn’t make the magic box do what they wanted it to do. So it was my fault. Even though they couldn’t figure HOW I was doing it wrong, clearly I was stupid and I was doing it wrong.

But, you know, that’s what I get for COMPETING with men. Clearly I should have just said I didn’t know anything and not tried to help them with anything so that way they could feel smarter than me. Their shit never would have gotten done, but who cares about the janitorial job I helped that one guy get, or the bus tickets I helped that other guy order, or the soccer coach who’s summer schedule I typed up half of? I mean, men’s egos are on the line! How DARE I help them figure out how to do stuff on the computer?

anniek63
anniek63
11 years ago

As someone who used to espouse these very ideas, I appreciate Manboobz commentary on them just so, so much. If you protect the fragile male egos of basement-dwelling Redditors by being everything they want you to be all the time, they’ll reward you with their affection.

WHERE DO I SIGN UP

NeverWrong
NeverWrong
11 years ago

well with much more Gay Women out there now, that certainly will have something to do with it.

Dennis
Dennis
11 years ago

I think there is a lot of truth to what this woman says, but unfortunately many of us have grown up in a gynocentric feminist man hating society where woman is programmed to hate men, all in the name of “equality”. Any man with half a brain can see where that took us.
If you are the type of man that grew up in a single parent household and you mother abused and emasculated you from a small boy, that stays with you for the rest of your life, and there are plenty of women out there who will capitalize on that. Many of us men just wanted to have a good woman in our lives, but the hypergamous nature of women left us with the female crap of society more fortunate men would have nothing to do with, and for good reason. We tend to attract sociopathic women who love to make your life a hell on earth. I’d be dammed If I ever give my love and affection to another woman. Besides, I’m sixty-two years of age and know that death is not all that far off anymore. I am more concerned with having to give God an account of my life than looking for that woman I can’t have. Kudos to the MRA and Paul Elam, for teaching young men like me to protect yourself. God only knows how much we need it. Woman is no friend to man.

kittehserf
11 years ago

Cool story, bro.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
11 years ago

Dude, are you 62 and close to death, or a young man? You’re either a shit writer, or too dumb to keep your lies straight for a couple of sentences (or maybe both).

But go on talking about women as though they were defective products rather than people. Keep it up, and I promise you won’t have to waste much time staying away from them – they’ll gladly do that for you.

SredniVashtar
SredniVashtar
11 years ago

@Dennis: female hypergamy is a big fucking lie. not only is it demonstrably false, but the theory of ‘female hypergamy’ actually makes no sense. maybe the women in your life treated you badly, but that’s just because some people are dicks, and some of the world’s dicks are women.

katz
11 years ago

Any man with half a brain can see where that took us.

Are you Doctor Horrible?

LBT
LBT
11 years ago

Dennis, when you do die and are asked to give an account to God, I’m pretty sure St. Peter will say, “So, Dennis, I see here that you went to a months-dead blog post to vent your ire about the State of Women Today, which was demonstrably false and mostly made you look like an asshole. Have you anything to say for yourself?”

If your answer is bad, you will be suspended by your ankles, head first, into a barrel filled with all the milk you ever spilled, and if you drown, to Hell with you.

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

While LBT’s exact wording is non-biblical (but hilarious), thou shall not lie Dennis. You fail that one.

LBT — spilled milk…exploding milk…you’re going to love meeting pecunium, probably even if there’s more exploding milk. (Which hopefully there won’t be!)

LBT
LBT
11 years ago

Whaddaya talking about? I married a Baptist. I know what I’m talking about; what I said was the gospel truth.

totorodoro89
totorodoro89
11 years ago

Women who wish to control men and men do not want to be controlled. I do not want to control a man but I want him to listen and take into consideration of what I have to say.

Men today are struggling with their masculinity and to be honest, I see men becoming more effeminate because of the stupid American society. I want a man a MANLY man. Today’s women are castrating the men mentally and physically by removing the man’s pride. No too many people realize this but from what I heard from some men is the resentment they have of women. Women today just can’t make up their damn minds of what they want in men.

Now why don’t men do this to women? You know change what they think women should look like in terms of appearance?

I as a woman want a manly man, a man who is respectful but yet still firm a man to take of both of us. And appearance wise, I dig HAIR. Most women today don’t but I do. Preferrably mustaches not really beards. And hairy chests! Why do SOME women wish to control men? They want to feel empowered over the other gender that for years was seen as the dominant sex of the two.

I see times changing. Maybe not in this generation and it was either Tesla or Einstein who predicted in the future that the world would be run by females. I call it “the rule of the insects.”

And even though as a woman I sometimes see myself as someone who hates women. I hate atleast the annoying women out there who are constantly bitching about and wanting to change the roles of strong husband to lowly and resentful wife. And I work with these women…

Malitia
Malitia
11 years ago

For the record I highly doubt “totorodoro89” is a woman but let’s entertain the notion.

Yeah… writes “I do not want to control a man” and then “I want a man a MANLY man.” and doesn’t notices the irony (So do you want to feel empowered, or what? Controlling all the not-so-manly-men. Shame on you.). Also doesn’t realize that resentment caused by questioned privileges isn’t any kind of oppression.

And this gem: “Women today just can’t make up their damn minds of what they want in men.” … probably because women are people not a hive mind. (Hint: a woman would know this.)

“Now why don’t men do this to women? You know change what they think women should look like in terms of appearance?” Ummm. Actually they do. The body image pressure (not to mention all the other societal pressures) on men is nothing compared to what toxic shit women must endure. (Hint: a woman would know this too.)

Anybody who wants to change someone else’s “role” to a “lowly and resentful” anything (so I don’t talk about freely chosen roles here) should walk barefoot on legos the rest of their life.
Kind of telling that apparently totorodoro89 thinks the only two available roles are “strong” and “lowly and resentful”, though.

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

LBT — ’twas the dipped in milk part 🙂

Anyone else hearing the clock chime Pell o’clock? Either that or Al, he did already do a hilaribad attempt at pretending to be a woman.

As for the content of that screed…and what about men who don’t want to have to be “manly men”? And effeminate men? And male bodied non-cis people?

And men with long hair and a fondness for kilts? Cuz we’ve got one of those and I’m making popcorn when he gets to your little rant.

katz
11 years ago

I like how none of the sentences have anything to do with the adjacent sentences. It reminds me of my third grade jaguar report.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

If ToroBot up there is really a woman, I will eat a flip-flop.

titianblue
titianblue
11 years ago

Women today just can’t make up their damn minds of what they want in men.

Thank you, feminism, that so many women today get the choice rather than being forced to accept whatever was forced upon them. And bring on the day when everyone gets to choose.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
11 years ago

Men today are struggling with their masculinity and to be honest, I see men becoming more effeminate because of the stupid American society. I want a man a MANLY man.

Now who’s trying to control men?

Look, I’m a feminist in part because I don’t believe one’s gender (assigned or embraced) should dictate the course of one’s life. If men want to be “effeminate” (whatever that means), want to reject the traditional roles expected of them (emotionless robot, sex fiend, violent aggressor), they should have that right. I hope it makes them happier.

SredniVashtar
SredniVashtar
11 years ago

You know what dude? It’s not ‘castrating’ or ’emasculating’ not to be revered for neutral traits and behaviours (e.g. being male, being a MANLY male, having MANLY HAIRY MALE HOBBIES like fishin’ and shootin’ and chewin’ tobacco, as opposed to pansy-ass girly hobbies like fashion and fainting fits). There’s no reason men should be respected simply by dint of being men, or ‘masculine men’ (over and above the respect they should have for being human).

Feminists aren’t ‘removing the man’s pride’ – we respect and value men as PEOPLE, as opposed to fawning and kowtowing to them because they have a penis or a hairy chest or whatever. If you need to feel excess pride simply by dint of having been born into the male gender, as opposed to the lame submissive pansy female one, then that’s tough – you’re not owed one cent of admiration for being a dude over what you’re owed for being a chick.

P.S. also what the fuck was that weird bit where you equated women with insects?! did anyone else notice that? when women are equally represented in positions of political power, is that going to be as bad as being halfway under ‘the rule of the insects’?!

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