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On Reddit, a woman explains to other women why men hate them

Wonder Woman: Always alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.
Wonder Woman: Forever alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.

NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.

Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.

Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.

FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:

[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.

Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”

But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.

Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.

[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?

When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.

You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?

But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)

Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?

I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

None of these things are inherently male traits.

Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.

Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Says you.  Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.

And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.

The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.

Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.

The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with. 

In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?

So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”

By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.

At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.

Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.

“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.

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Tracy
Tracy
11 years ago

I waited tables at a truck stop in high school, so I’ve had my fair share of sexist asshole customer experiences.

2 truck stops, a hole-in-the-wall diner and a skeevy coffee shop here. I encountered less sexist crap when I worked on an adult phone line, fer crissakes.

I really should read Reddit more, bc I had no idea that men compete all day long! Now I’m going to further please busband* by asking him today (and each day) if he won, and what his standings are.

So I asked “How was your day? Did you win?”

“Win what?” he said.

“The competition,” I said.

“I have no idea what you’re talking about,” he said, then showed me the new ship he got in his Star Trek game. I explained to him that because he is a man, he competes every day. He said “The only competition is maybe between you and me, like who’s gonna clean the litterbox first, and I don’t want to win that one. Check out my new engineering console!” So he must be a beta or a pi cappa gamma or something.

*busband = boyfriend/husband hybrid

Kittehserf
11 years ago

““The only competition is maybe between you and me, like who’s gonna clean the litterbox first, and I don’t want to win that one.”

LOL Mum and I have that competition, but there’s a real incentive to get there fast when Fribs has waged biological warfare on the house.

pineapplecookies
pineapplecookies
11 years ago

Thank you for the welcome and the package!

However, I got utterly distracted reading the Tom Martin’s thread… I can’t stop laughing or reading that. There are even some awesome recipes over there! Gotta try those!

I will be back soon on topic.
(Btw, what a strange nickname mine became… I wanted just pineapple because I was craving it. They didn’t let me register it… somehow the cookies just arrived.)

AK
AK
11 years ago

Y’know, I met a lot of guys in my youth who were threatened by me. I’m lucky* enough to be queer, so I just dated mostly women. Problem solved.

I did wind up with a guy though…when we met, he was initially attracted to me because I was the only woman at this party wearing boots, a flannel shirt and a baseball cap (I like to be stylish, what can I say? also I was moving). Also I made fun of him like crazy because he was whining about being sore after doing a notoriously difficult 12-mile hike in our area (it has a 4,000-foot elevation climb and is literally all uphill).

Recently a friend of his asked him what he liked most about me, and after some thought he said, “Well, she’s a real bitch in all the best ways.” We have a daily “20 minute hate” session where we tell each other about our days to much mockery from each other. It is delightful.

He’s also a total manly man that would make the MRA proud (except for the fact that he’s not a misogynist and doesn’t like submissive women, of course). He worked for years in mining (and *gasp* as a foreman he actively tried to change the culture to help female miners feel comfortable because he thought the discrimination they faced was terrible), and now he works with explosives and weaponry. He likes sports and cheap beer, much to my chagrin (well, on the latter count anyway…I do love me some baseball). He’s muscular and strong, and was a semi-professional martial artist when he was younger. And yet he loves that I am also strong and capable and an equal partner in our relationship, and frequently cites that as his main attraction to me.

I always kinda wonder what MRAs would make of us, because if I followed their “relationship advice,” I wouldn’t be with the person I love right now.

*well, lucky in that sense anyway. And while I wound up in a het relationship, the only reason two of my long-term queer relationships fell apart was because I want kids (adopted or biological, I don’t care) and she didn’t. Otherwise I’d probably be happily gay married.

Kittehserf
11 years ago

“(Btw, what a strange nickname mine became… I wanted just pineapple because I was craving it. They didn’t let me register it… somehow the cookies just arrived.)”

As all good cookies should! 😀

Your pineapple-coloured kitty is very cute, btw.

MKlein
MKlein
11 years ago

So FleetingWish thinks men are some kind of Sith Lords for whom women must be “useful” in order for them to approve of/not actively hate our existence?

Man, having that impression of (approximately) 50% of the population must suck.

Shadow
Shadow
11 years ago

@Kendra

I myself mock many of the tenets of Quiverfull, especially its misogyny, reactionary ideals, and rigid gender roles. I guess I just don’t feel right to mock the way the women look, since they are pressured to do so by their communities.

Agreed completely. Even for those women who choose to wear of their own free will, it’s straight dickery to make fun of them because it’s not some random fashion choice it’s a choice to wear their cultural clothes. It’s like laughing at the Amish for their clothing, or laughing at South Asian women for wearing a salwar kameez (which is also designed with modesty (measured by how little skin it shows) in mind, especially with the more traditional styles), or the bullshit leveled at women in burqas.

The quiverfull movement used to be a source of amusement to me, back when I thought they were just a bunch of peeps doing a lot of fucking because they find people like me so terrifying (I always wanted to meet one of them just to say “You’re welcome”). But after hearing about all the child abuse and stuff, I really grew to hate them. Not just because of the abuse itself (though that’s obviously more than enough), but there’s this additional feeling of transferred ick when you realise that they’re doing all this because of their ridiculous fear of you.

@Tracy

*busband = boyfriend/husband hybrid

Can’t lie, I thought y’all met at work and he was bussing tables. I had the rom-com all drawn up in my head 😛

…. I lied, there’s nothing in my head. But the idea that there could be a rom-com named Busband is now drawn up in my head.

Shadow
Shadow
11 years ago

@MKlein

One of the qualifications of being an MRA or PUA seems to be that you need to think humanity ain’t shit.

Kittehserf
11 years ago

AK – loved reading about you and Mr AK. 🙂

It made me think of how one of the things I love about Mr K is that he isn’t, by current standards, a straight-out “manly man”. I’m not sure he was even by the standards of his own time, when masculinity was framed rather differently. Ballet, for example, was seen as a very masculine art and eminently fit for kings to take part in. I just love the combination of a soldier who’d risk his own neck leading his army across the Alps in winter, and who’d sew or paint or compose or cook in his leisure time. And that’s just his earthly days … now one can add “is a total cat person” to the list. 🙂

Kim
Kim
11 years ago

Won’t someone tell me how I can ditch my loser beta manbros and attract some more alpha friends?

That is the premise of quite a few high school based movies/tv shows, except the characters are almost always girls rather than boys, and one of the payoffs of the ‘cooler’ friends is the more ‘alpha’ guy.

MKlein
MKlein
11 years ago

@Shadow – yeah, I know. Somehow I just never get over it.

BritterSweet
11 years ago

You know, I like the soft, sugar-and-pastel, field-of-flowers feeling that femininity entails to me. I am looking for some skirts and dresses I can wear everyday, long enough where I can enjoy the swirling feeling around my legs as I spin around (I loved doing that as a little kid). I could go on longer about the cute and girly things I like, but moving on.

Ahem.

…But then someone “praises” feminine women in a way that makes me go, “Eeek! Get away, get away!” and put up my fists like a boxer. I put that word in quotes because it probably is intended to be flattering. But it doesn’t flatter me because the *reason* they like it is not what I want.

That may have sounded a little confusing so tl;dr, I want to enjoy the style, but not the supposed limitations.

Kittehserf
11 years ago

BritterSweet – I hear ya on the long skirts! I’m wearing one now. Ditto on the fists. 🙂

Kittehserf
11 years ago

(Not that I get called feminine or girly or anything. Could be because when I’m walking/limping my demeanour is generally “Get the fuck out of my way!”)

M Dubz
M Dubz
11 years ago

@BritterSweet- Yeah, totally seconded. Like, I want to wear skirts and heels and lipstick and have long supermodel type hair. In the summer, I love breaking out my sun dresses and wandering around like a total fairy princess earth mama. But don’t play like I won’t kick your ass at being smart and ambitious while wearing my fairy princess clothes. My personal style and my personality do not necessarily correlate at all.

Yoyo
Yoyo
11 years ago

Hey a bittersweet, I like the swishy dresses thing too and I liked the difference it gave me in a very male environment .. But now I’m in the horror of reconstructive surgery I’m having to reasses all my assumptions about “beauty” and femininity. I’m not sure what the answer is, but I feel horrific shame for every time I saw a person with a weight problem and mentally put them down. Maybe doing an angelina Jolie without the fabulous surgeons and treatment is my penance .. More likely I have to work harder. 🙁

mollymixtures
mollymixtures
11 years ago

So I’m basically supposed to be a Stepford Wife? [i]Really?[/i]

You know, I hate reading this kind of crap, because it almost always becomes a kind of sacred validation for arseholes everywhere. I am sick of coming across Girlwriteswhat, etc links posted by shitstains who honestly believe that because a woman said it about her own sex, it must be true.

And seriously, we all want to be comforted sometimes, but that responsibility shouldn’t fall squarely on the shoulders of women. I am not a blankey! I am human being with my own desires and needs, for fuck’s sake!

Carleyblue
Carleyblue
11 years ago

This brings to mind something I’ve wondered before: Do you think that someone who desires a submissive partner is inherently wrong/ not a nice person. Say, if someone were to say that they could only live with someone who lets them make all the decisions. I have a hard time accepting that that person isn’t just selfish, but maybe there is someone out there for everyone…

Dvärghundspossen
11 years ago

You know, I would ALMOST feel sorry for the person who wrote this. Because here’s a woman who saw a bunch of assholes who hate women, and instead of saying “Wow, what a bunch of noxious assholes! I want nothing to do with them.” Her reaction was to say “How can I get the assholes to like/tolerate me?”

I mean, that’s pretty sad, and if she’d stopped there, I might feel sorry for someone like that who places the approval of assholes above their own self-worth.

Yeah, this. I felt the same way on reading some of Clarisse Thorn’s posts on PUA. Like that extract from her PUA book about how this PUA guy basically kidnaps her to his apartment and pester her for sex all night. She keeps saying no, and EVENTUALLY gets to leave his place after insisting an entire night that she really doesn’t wanna have sex with him and really really wants to go home. Then she gives him a kiss before she leaves, and then she feels bad about only giving him a kiss and nothing more than that. I shit you not.

I know lots of feminists are pissed off at Clarisse for the PUA-stuff she’s written, but my reaction is more along the lines of “that’s fucking sad”.

Dvärghundspossen
11 years ago

Regarding what men gets from women… The reason Husband is the love of my life is basically that we have SO MUCH IN COMMON. That we UNDERSTAND each other so well, and THINK so alike. We meet people who are different from us all day long; it’s wonderful and relaxing to come home to someone who just “gets” you.

But people’s mileage obviously vary on this. I was once in an internet discussion with a guy (who I think mistook me for man btw, since the whole discussion was originally about which female guest stars in Star Trek TOS were hottest, and everyone always assumes that only men could be interested in that topic), and he thought it completely incomprehensible that anyone could want to marry someone who’s “just like me but with a vagina”. Um, why not? Never really got that clarified, to him it was just obvious.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
11 years ago

Hey, I missed An Inconvenient Truth saying

1) I doubt that “plenty” accurately represents the niche market for high-T, furry-armed manjaws.

2) Replacing “not attracted to” with “intimidated by” is nothing but ego salve. A man doesn’t have to be “intimidated” by a 40-something HR director to prefer the idea of copulating with a 20-something waitress.

I wish we still had Manjaw the Mighty to ask him what is wrong with furry armed 40 something women working in Human Resources. And copulation? Why do PUA’s use terms like this when they’re talking about sex? It makes them sound like Maude Lebowski, except I hate to compare her to these guys.

So, Inconvenient Truth, if you want to date 20 something waitresses, that’s terrific. Just stop claiming to speak for other men when you discuss your preferences.

@Shadow, I agree. There are some people of color in Quiverfull, too, though. The people of color in the movement aren’t trying to “outbreed” people of other races and ethnicities, but people of other religions. I don’t think religious sectarian prejudices are any better, though. Here is a video of a woman married to a man of color and they were Quiverfull together. She had to divorce him, though, because he was very abusive. The church excommunicated her for leaving.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

It makes them sound like Maude Lebowski, except I hate to compare her to these guys.

“It’s a natural, zesty enterprise.”

Jessica
Jessica
11 years ago

Wow, that’s provocing

pineapplecookies
pineapplecookies
11 years ago

Thank you, Kittehserf! ^^ I enjoyed making this kitty avatars, they are so cute.

I believe it’s sad when people put relationships in little boxes of “do’s / don’ts” and make everything seem like some kind of game….

Also, the “heteronormativity” of these discourses kind of annoys me. So there are only man/woman couples in the world. That’s the only possibility ever. Right…

So, for me to be loved by men – because the author seems to think that would be my sole concern – I need not to behave like a man…. I wonder what “behaving like a man” really is. Because, quite frankly, by reading this I cannot really understand. Do they seem to think that certain characteristics are “natural”?

I’m rambling 😛

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
11 years ago

“It’s a natural, zesty enterprise.”

You mean coitus? I thought we were talking about my rug.

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