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On Reddit, a woman explains to other women why men hate them

Wonder Woman: Always alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.
Wonder Woman: Forever alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.

NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.

Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.

Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.

FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:

[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.

Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”

But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.

Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.

[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?

When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.

You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?

But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)

Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?

I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

None of these things are inherently male traits.

Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.

Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Says you.  Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.

And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.

The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.

Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.

The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with. 

In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?

So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”

By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.

At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.

Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.

“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.

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CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

Okay, there are plenty of men that want a woman who will defer to them, wait on them hand and foot, smile all the time, and use a soft voice like Michelle Duggar.

Actually that’s a great illustration of how subjective all this stuff about what men want is. Most of the men I know would either be actively repulsed by Michelle Duggar or just not notice her at all (dowdy, too obviously devout, devoutness is not much fun to be around for those who’re very fond of their debauchery of choice), but for some men she’s exactly what they want. So any time someone comes along and pronounces on what all women must do to attract men they run into the unfortunate fact that men are not a monolith and they all want different things.

Well, that and the facts that a. not all women want the kind of man they’re giving lessons on how to attract, b. many women aren’t willing to pretend to be someone they’re not just to get sexual attention and c. lesbians, they exist.

princessbonbon
11 years ago

But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across.

Uh yes, generally you do not love every single person you meet. Sometimes…*gasp* you might even dislike them!

What man expects that when he meets a married lady of 21 that she is going to just leap on to his penis? And that if she does not, she deserves his unending ire?

pineapplecookies
pineapplecookies
11 years ago

I find this kind of rhetoric very…. anti-male, to be honest. If I were a man, I would be offended.

I love what thebionicmommy said: “Luckily there are also lots of straight men that don’t want to have a relationship with a woman who is a doormat. If anyone is bashing men here, it’s anti feminist women.”

I feel this every time I read this kind of speech.

– Btw, I’m new here. I’ve been reading this blog for quite sometime. What amazes me the most is that it’s probably the only website which I read the comment’s section. I usually avoid it like the plague. But the comments here are great! I have a lot of fun reading you all ^_^ So I decided to enter the lounge and have a cookie and some tea too… 🙂

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
11 years ago

@CassandraSays:

That’s one thing I noticed most strongly about the comment thread. Everyone there, guys included, are convinced that Michelle Duggar is what all men want, or the vast majority anyway. They tell women who don’t want to be more feminine “Fine, go ahead, just don’t complain when no men want you.” And when someone tries to point out that men and women aren’t monaliths, they basically respond with “yes they are.”

princessbonbon
11 years ago

Okay, there are plenty of men that want a woman who will defer to them, wait on them hand and foot, smile all the time, and use a soft voice like Michelle Duggar.

Which completely ignores how the family would cope after the “strong one” disappeared.

bagelsan
bagelsan
11 years ago

Which completely ignores how the family would cope after the “strong one” disappeared.

Nah, then it’s just time for the oldest boy to be head of the family. If he doesn’t want to? Too bad!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

@ kirbywarp

They try their hardest to shove every man in the world into that tiny little box, shame or attack any man who doesn’t want to/can’t force himself to fit, and then they say that feminists are the ones who hate men.

Amused
11 years ago

Which completely ignores how the family would cope after the “strong one” disappeared.

What would an MRA care? They only talk about their own needs and wants. They don’t care what happens once it no longer affects them. The “love” for a perfect woman that they talk about is something that’s for their benefit, not hers.

Hence, après moi, le déluge.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
11 years ago

Everyone there, guys included, are convinced that Michelle Duggar is what all men want, or the vast majority anyway.

It also implies that all hetero women want Jim Bob Duggar *gag*. I’m sorry, but that guy makes my skin crawl. So if those PUA’s are telling women how to attract manly, patriarchal men like him, some women will make notes of what not to do.

I’m probably an asshole for dissing the Duggars after all the work they did here in Joplin, but it just gets sickening to always seen them held up as the ideal everyone else has to aspire to.

Rahu
Rahu
11 years ago

I’m still stuck on why there’s a whole thing about how women can attract PUAs. Isn’t that counterproductive? Isn’t the whole POINT of PUAdom to TRICK women into going to bed with them? If a hunter was really into the chase part, and bought all this equipment (night vision goggles, scans from the air, etc., etc.) in order to get an elusive deer, how would he feel if the deer came knocking on his door saying “HI!!! Here I am!!!! Wanna kill me????”

Kittehserf
11 years ago

Yawn to another misogynist. I only got a couple of paragraphs in before my eyes glazed over (well, it is only 5.45 am here).

The sort of creeps she seems to think are representative of men … well, their good opinions aren’t worth having, even if it were possible, because they hate women. Doesn’t matter what we do. Even if we lived down to her prescriptions, they’d still hate us for being women.

I’ll stick to my alpha king, thankyerverymuch.

katz
11 years ago

Nope, the Duggars are fuckin’ creepy regardless of how much good work they do anywhere.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

FFS, my Dad wouldn’t want someone like Michelle Duggar, and he’s in his 60s and has spent his entire working life in a super macho environment. In fact, I think you’d have a hard time finding a Brit who was into that who wasn’t either very religious or an MRA.

Shaenon
11 years ago

The fPUA subreddit is hilarious. It’s nearly dead and appears to be at least 90% men, all of them waiting patiently for an actual woman to show up so they can lecture her on how to please them. There’s a recent thread entitled “How Many Here Are Actually Female?” First response:

The 8 hour silence speaks volumes. I’m starting to think there is a conspiracy going on.
I’m also a dude.

A few women post to say that they check in sometimes but mostly lurk on the regular PUA reddits. Sadly, it seems like they hang out there to learn seduction tips for themselves, not to mold themselves into PUA fantasy women. Then another guy posts:

ah fuck were all dudes… i like helping the lil fishies what can I say! there are so many boring lame and uninteresting women out there… I WOULD KILL FOR A GIRL WHO KNOWS HOW TO KINO ESCALATE IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK DAMN IT!!

This is awesome enough, but then comes the response:

haha, I feel like we need to start a real community…anyone up for buying an island?

YES REDDIT ISLAND YESSSSS

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

OK, that’s hilarious. Why are there no women on this subreddit we set up to teach women how to please us? It’s one of life’s great mysteries, like magnets.

Kittehserf
11 years ago

La Strega – “NO NO NO. I am not someone’s missing “half.” I don’t want to be with someone who is “incomplete” without me.”

THIS. Louis and I describe ourselves as matching leaves on the tree, and I sometimes say we’re the matching pieces of a jigsaw for the idea of intelocking, but we were not incomplete before; we add to each other.

Howard Bannister
11 years ago

I WOULD KILL FOR A GIRL WHO KNOWS HOW TO KINO ESCALATE IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK DAMN IT!!

…WTF?

It’s exactly what it sounds like. Techniques to get touching them early and often, to get them into bed quicker.

WTF?

“I would kill for a woman who would touch me back.”

Um…

Yeah, see, the part where PUAs talk about how much sex they get, and act like it all must be great sex because they were there and a naked woman was there, and all that?

Little touches like this truly make them seem like the saddest creepiest clowns in ALLLLL Creepy Clowntown.

Just Julia
Just Julia
11 years ago

This sounds like something Sunshine Mary from the Sunshine Mary and the Dragon blog could have written. Maybe Fleeting Wish is another one of her pseudonyms.

In any case, it seems that the MRAs have brainwashed this woman. Let’s just hope she doesn’t write anything to raise their ire. She’ll learn real fast what they really think of women.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
11 years ago

OK, that’s hilarious. Why are there no women on this subreddit we set up to teach women how to please us? It’s one of life’s great mysteries, like magnets.

I know what’s going on. It all makes sense. Women aren’t there because, get this, they are playing hard to get! They are using lady game. Very clever.

M Dubz
M Dubz
11 years ago

Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with.

This is actually one of my big terrors. I am in seminary, and rabbinical work is one of those jobs, like doctoring or lawyering or being a politician, that utterly consumes your life. And not just your life, but the life of your family, because you are a public figure. And there’s a definite unbalance in my program between the number of single women and the number of single men (granted, most of the people in my program are partnered, and there are more women than men in terms of numbers). And I know it’s totally possible/ likely that I will find a guy who will be excited and supportive about my career, but it’s really hard to maintain a positive attitude when people keep saying stuff like this.

Amused
11 years ago

haha, I feel like we need to start a real community…anyone up for buying an island?

It’s a long shot, of course, but I pray that they do buy an island. I really, really really want them to buy one, especially one that’s wild and undeveloped. I can’t wait for them to get dysentery and come back with diaper rash, and blame it all on women.

M Dubz
M Dubz
11 years ago

@Howard- that is actually a little bit heartbreaking. Like, it devolves from “bitchez ain’t shit lulz lull lull” to “… sometimes I miss human physical contact.”

And then I remember they are assholes, so no sympathy.

LBT
LBT
11 years ago

*shudder* Never have I been gladder to be gay/asexual.

Howard Bannister
11 years ago

@Howard- that is actually a little bit heartbreaking. Like, it devolves from “bitchez ain’t shit lulz lull lull” to “… sometimes I miss human physical contact.”

And then I remember they are assholes, so no sympathy.

Right, it’s like, No SHIT, Sherlock, treating women in a dehumanizing way and playing mindgames to get sex from them whether they want it or not leads to an emotionally unsatisfying life? And you’re probably a rapist? Welp.

princessbonbon
11 years ago

I do not know what Kino Escalate is and I am scared to google fu it.

“I would kill for a woman who would touch me back.”

There are times I really wish that sex work was a legal and respected profession. 🙁 Because then someone could go to a sex worker and hire them, even if it was only for a cuddle puddle for an hour.