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On Reddit, a woman explains to other women why men hate them

Wonder Woman: Always alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.
Wonder Woman: Forever alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.

NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.

Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.

Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.

FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:

[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.

Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”

But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.

Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.

[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?

When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.

You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?

But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)

Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?

I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

None of these things are inherently male traits.

Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.

Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Says you.  Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.

And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.

The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.

Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.

The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with. 

In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?

So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”

By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.

At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.

Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.

“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.

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ej
ej
9 years ago

Underrated, deserving of love, not kidding: Contact (1997)

I love that movie! I’m actually reading the book right now.

@contrapangloss
I am also a huge fan of movie scores. Music can make or break a movie for me and the music usually sticks with me.

I know I mentioned Caprica on another thread earlier this week (I guess it’s stuck in my head now), but it also had amazing music. Just one of the many reasons I wish it had gotten more support. It’s composed by Bear McCreary, who also did the new Battlestar and Eureka.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
9 years ago

I have a confession… I’ve never been a fan of Jurassic Park. *hides* I mean, it definitely had some great scenes and I can shrug off most of the inaccuracies as being artistic license or not known at the time, but the Dilophosaurus. They slapped a random mini-kaiju into JP and call it a Dilophosaurus. ARGH.

I know that’s the stupidest thing in the world to ruin a whole movie, but I’m a palaeontologist IRL, so, heh.

gilshalos
9 years ago

@ej Hmm..I made the mistake of reading the book before I saw the movie with Contact. Loved the book..ambled off about 1/4 of the way through the movie.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
9 years ago

@ TAFKA “M”

I’m a palaeontologist IRL

Envious. Love paleontology.

What’s your particular field?

ej
ej
9 years ago

@gilshalos
I’m almost halfway through the book and I’m really intrigued by some of the character changes they made for the movie. They seem to have taken Ken apart and distributed bits of his character and story arc to other characters. That does make it a bit easier for my brain to divorce the book from the movie, though. I want to enjoy the book for what it is and not hate it because it isn’t the movie. I am really enjoying the book and I don’t picture Ellie as Jodie Foster, so I think I’m doing pretty well keeping the two separate.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
9 years ago

@Alan

Mostly pre-mesozoic palaeozoology (Avalon and Cambrian explosions FTW), but I think every palaeontologist dabbles in dinosaurs. If you’ve ever heard the theory that therizinosaurs possibly used their claws and long tongues for digging into termite mounds as well as for browsing trees, that was me. =P

(“Fake geek girls,” haha.)

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
9 years ago

*Pre-Mesozoic. Goddamn sticky shift key.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
9 years ago

Ooh, love all that. How we suddenly went from really simple life to “WTF is that!” fascinates me.

Hadn’t heard that theory, but all I knew about Therinosaurs was that they had long finger nails, so cheers, I’ll read up.

Of course, there’s nothing nerdy about dinosaurs so I’m not sure your point stands 😉

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
9 years ago

Hey, you might be on to something. They do seem anatomically very similar to ant-eaters etc so if there’s a parallel evolution thing going on I can see how they’d fill the same niche.

Of course there’s only one uncontroversial dinosaur theory.

katz
9 years ago

I know that’s the stupidest thing in the world to ruin a whole movie, but I’m a palaeontologist IRL, so, heh.

I can’t enjoy Disney’s Anastasia, so I understand. Also, palaeontology is awesome and you should feel awesome. I’m all about the Devonian myself.

Spindrift
Spindrift
9 years ago

@katz “I can’t enjoy Disney’s Anastasia, so I understand. Also, palaeontology is awesome and you should feel awesome. I’m all about the Devonian myself.”

I think Anastasia isn’t technically a Disney film, it’s just trying to be.

contrapangloss
9 years ago

SFHC:

Since you excuse is, well, really cool and all, I think I can forgive you not loving it.

🙂

Robert
Robert
9 years ago

Dark City is one of the movies I’d like to surprise my kids with at some point. Since they’re woefully ignorant of the source material, they might be suitably impressed.

That reminds me – there’s a pseudogenre of intensely and unapologetically derivative movies. Blazing Saddles, Rocky Horror, like that. If you were unfamiliar with Westerns or science fiction B-movies, would they have the same resonance? By the time I saw RHPS, I’d seen almost every movie referenced in”Science Fiction Double Feature”. Neither of my sons could say the same. On the other hand, their knowledge of anime and manga is breathtaking.

Fun fact – this August will be the fortieth anniversary of RHPS being released, and the thirty-seventh of my first time seeing it.

katz
9 years ago

I think Anastasia isn’t technically a Disney film, it’s just trying to be.

Oops, you’re right. It’s Don Bluth.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
9 years ago

@Misha

Tell me if you enjoy the movie if you see it, m’kay? Because my tastes need validation.

brooked
brooked
9 years ago

@Robert
I still remember Steve Bissette’s review of Tarantino’s and Rodriguez’s Grindhouse. Bissette was a huge fan of the 70s exploitation and genre films shown in dive movie theaters, aka grindhouses. His classic run on Alan Moore’s Swamp Thing is littered with homages to them, as are his later horror comics.

Needless to say, he was stoked to see Grindhouse. He mentioned the film to his college art students and found out that they hadn’t the slightest idea what grindhouse theaters were and zero interest in seeing the film, unless they were hardcore fans of the directors. He guessed the movie would bomb, which it did, and he saw several times in near empty theaters, loving every minute of it.

I’m not sure if this is even a remotely interesting anecdote, but it’s stuck with me because the filmmakers thought making faux 1970s Grindhouse films was an inherently cool and exciting concept, not realizing the key male 18-34 demographic had no idea what they were talking about. It ended up being a movie made by and for middle aged of 70s exploitation film fans, which is not a particularly large subset.

On the other hand, my parents are obsessed with Galaxy Quest and force everyone who visits them to watch it. So I have numerous nieces and nephews who’ve seen and really enjoyed Galaxy Quest, despite the fact that they’ve seen a single episode of Star Trek.

rahul
rahul
9 years ago

I hope all women are not bad.

Bill62
Bill62
9 years ago

It’d because many women can’t shut the hell up for five minutes. Quiet. Stop talking about senseless, meaningless bullshit.
I’ve been supervising a unit of only women for 15 years and finally have the ability to transition…very soon.

Bill62
Bill62
9 years ago

When you work with, or if you supervise women….be mindful of one thing
Do not tell them anything about yourself. The more they know about you, the more they’ll ask you about yourself and your life….they will pry. They can’t help themselves. There’s no off switch. Ever heard the term “emotional vampires”? Well, now you have.
Godspeed gentlemen. Godspeed.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
9 years ago

@Bill62

You’re right. It’s not like women want to get to know you because they like you or anything, like they want to be your friend and hang out together or maybe have sex with you if you don’t have a SO, it’s because they’re emotional vampires.

And, you know, on that note, you’ve probably never actually had any women try to befriend you or talk to you, and you think that telling people that women wanting to know about guys is akin to vampirism because that’s what the little myth is around the manosphere and you want to seem knowledgeable about how those scary wommenz act.

Seriously, I’d be surprise if any woman gave you the time of day, let alone tried to pry into your life.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
9 years ago

Women sure do talk a lot! Doing that alien thing they call taking an interest in other people. If you let them, they’ll flap their gums all day, trying to take an interest in you!

Such a plague, when people are friends and behave the way friends do. Almost enough to make a person vomit.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
9 years ago

MRA fanfiction is always so poorly written.

weirwoodtreehugger
9 years ago

I know there’s no point in trying to engage what is likely a drive by, but what the hell?

It’d because many women can’t shut the hell up for five minutes. Quiet. Stop talking about senseless, meaningless bullshit.

It is a myth that women talk more than men. In fact, in many situations, men talk more.
https://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/prejudice/women/

Women don’t talk too much, it’s just that a lot of men are sexist and want us to be decorative and silent (unless we’re agreeing with or complimenting the men).

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000eHEXGJ_wImQ/s/900/720/Office-Sexism-Women-Business-Relationships-Cartoons-Punch-Magazine-Riana-Duncan-1988-01-08-11.jpg

When you work with, or if you supervise women….be mindful of one thing
Do not tell them anything about yourself. The more they know about you, the more they’ll ask you about yourself and your life

They expressed interest and concern about your life and well being? How dare they? What horrible people they must be!

Also dude, emotional vampire doesn’t mean what you think it means.

alaisvex
alaisvex
9 years ago

Oh my God, why are trolls still necroing this thread?