NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.
Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.
Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.
FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:
[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.
Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”
But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.
Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.
[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).
And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?
When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.
You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?
But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)
Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?
I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.
None of these things are inherently male traits.
Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.
Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.
The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.
Says you. Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.
And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.
The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.
Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.
The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with.
In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.
The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.
Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?
So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”
“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”
By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.
At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.
Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.
“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.”
It’s not like David’s name is right up there t the top of the blog or on the by-line of every post or anything.
… Are we sure that this one was from Jason James Joey Joe-Joe Jr and not a spambot?
I feel so sorry for Scott…it must be awfully lonely to be a trollosexual.
OTOH there are always people online somewhere in the world, so the trollosexual can get himself at any time? Shame it’s no fun for the people on the receiving end.
And the idea that misogynist men don’t like it when women get angry at and mock misogyny? And that’s supposed to be some horrible consequence of women’s anger at and mocking of misogyny? To make us stop?
No, Scott, major, major fail in those two little sentences. Damn that’s a lot of fail.
Oh Scott, who gives a fuck what sexist men think?
I read it ALL. ALL! Just wow. I would like to issue a few ‘fuck you’s’ to the necro trolls and a big, hearty hug (only after receiving verbal consent, of course) to all my humans who are, indeed, human. You folk are the best.
I don’t think humanity is “dis-evolving”, but I am starting to wonder if there’s a covert inbreeding program I’m unaware of. The amount of troll bile piled on this post makes me believe it is so. How does one become so unfathomably obtuse?
Oh well. I guess I’m just going to have to fumble around in my womanly way and hope I run into someone to worship soon lest my ovaries turn to dust before I can fulfill my biological function as a female sperm repository and wash and fold service. Oh, wherever could my prince be. *sigh*
What I am glad about is that feminist nutters like yourself will be bread out of the gene pool in a few generations. No one will ever want to have kids with you. Funny thing is I wasn’t like this until I met me some real died-in-the-wool feminists. The kind of women who I double and triple check is taking the pill before I fuck them. Because sex is really all you offer. ‘Women’ are obliged to provide for ‘Men’, you are obliged to provide for your partner. That there is the core problem. Again, I am so glad you are going extinct because the world can do with less of you.
<blockquoteWhat I am glad about is that feminist nutters like yourself will be bread out of the gene pool in a few generations.
Rye or whole wheat?
Uh-huh. Yeah, sure you weren’t. Meeting feminists just magically turned you into a raging asshole.
Yep, before you met any feminists you were just a fine human being who viewed women as fellow human beings rather than sexual playthings for men. Yep.
You do understand that a philosophy/ideology/political stance/worldview isn’t transmitted genetically, right? What am I saying? Of course you don’t.
Well, bread in the gene pool would get soggy pretty quickly.
I will be brutally honest. I am not a misogynist, but after the past 5 years (age 29 to 34) I am done with dating or persuing women for the next couple of years at best. Tired of being treated like an object of utility.
Billy
I’ll be brutally honest right back atcha. Maybe you’ve been dating the wrong kind of women and are simply extrapolating from your own bad experiences to the whole female gender? Maybe you’ve been treating women like objects of utility and hate it when they’re treating you in the same manner?
Either way, no, you are indeed very much a misogynist.
And either way, no one cares, Necro-Billy.
I’m not a misogynist, I just show up late to conversations about misogyny to declare that women are all awful in the same way. Who among us would not have done the same?!??
And there are still no exceptions to the rule that anything following “I am not [blank]-ist, but…” will be [blank]-ist.
Why do so many internet dudes think we care about either their dating lives or boner preferences?
We don’t care, guys.
Sorry.
Gosh, don’t you hate it when you meet someone online, get to talking and laughing, and finally get comfortable enough to set up your first in-person date? You’re all nervous, wearing clothes you haven’t worn in forever, hoping to make a good first impression? You go to the restaurant, nervous as all hell, looking at each woman and wondering if she was the one you were talking to?
You finally find her, laugh awkwardly as you mosey over to your table, try to figure out what would make a good conversation starter without being too cliche. Idle chatter as you pretend to look over the menu while trying not to stare too hard at the person you only knew by text.
And as the bread comes out and the drinks are poured and the conversation settles, she puts her menu down, looks you straight in the eye, and says:
“So, what use are you to me?”
Puts me right off dating, that.
I think it’s that annoying MGTOW habit of standing on the porch, knapsack over shoulder, shouting “I’m leaving now! You’ll miss me when I’m gone!
…I said you’re gonna miss me! Hellooo? Are you even listening?”
That was aimed at WWTH, oops.
I’m gonna back up and necro the necro troll, because Billy’s proclamation is kind of boring. If you want to take a break, Billy, you don’t need our permission. It’s quite all right.
And yet feminists have kids all the time, and will continue to have kids, while guys like you loaf around on the sidelines and challah about being oppressed by buns and women who don’t know their roll in society.
Died-in-the-wool feminists? I hope they were buried in their sweaters.
Joking aside, it’s pretty pointless to blame turning into a terrible person on feminists. It’s pretty clear you were one all along. You just don’t want to take responsibility for it. You want to offload it onto us so you can go on fooling yourself into thinking you’re a good person, and how can you help being terrible when other people are MAKING you be terrible because they won’t agree with your opinions and do as you say and what choice does a good person have in this world but to be terrible??
Nope. This one’s on you, sunshine.
Yeah, cool story, bro. I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess you’ve never had sex with a feminist. No feminist would let you anywhere near them,
And how exactly do you double and triple check that someone is taking the pill? Sounds like another cool story.
Why are ‘Women’ and ‘Men’ in ‘quotes’? Perhaps because this is ‘total bullshit’?
Well, whatever. The world will go on populating and being merry and forming adult bonds with one another, while you sit there getting angrier and angrier at the women who steer clear of you and your one-way obligational model of relationships. Enjoy.
Good.
Please continue not to date anyone, you will not be missed.
NOOOOOO!!!!!!! Don’t leave us, Billy! We can change! We won’t be all uppity and angry any more! I totally promise!* No more feminism for us! We totally give up! Just don’t leave us! We’ll make moar sammiches! PLEASE DON’T GOOOOOOO!!!!!! ::slumps to the floor, sobbing hysterically::
*not an actual promise
Billy | March 12, 2015 at 12:50 pm
First, what the foxtrot is up with peeps like this signing their comments? I can see your name, Billy-bob. You don’t need to repeat it. Especially with such a short comment. It’s redundant.
Now, on to the meat of this conversation! *knuckle crack*
“I’m not a ________, but…” statements are very important, because everything after the but will prove you extremely wrong about you not being whatever it was you put in the blank (in this case, “misogynist”).
From what I can read in this comment, you weren’t the only one in your relationships being treated like an object. Who the fuck talks about “persuing” [sic] a woman? We’re not wild animals you’re hunting, we’re people ya moldy bag of butt-plugs. You don’t “pursue” a woman. You sit us down and talk to us like we’re adult people that you’d like to get to know, not snipe us from a distance with an elephant rifle.
And if you’re done dating and “pursuing” women, good. No one curr. Leave. Go. Bye-Bye. Adios. TTFF (Ta-Ta For Forever).
The only time that guys like you come in here to necro old threads with the “I’m leaving and not coming back!” talk is because you want someone to cry and beg you not to go. Like loosing you and your peen is the punishment of the century for us silly wimmens sitting firmly under the feminist label. It’s like a child threatening to run away because you didn’t get your cookies, except your not a child, and we don’t care if you do leave. We just want you to close the front door. You’re letting in a draft, and I’m not paying to heat up the neighborhood!
It’s not going to happen unless someone gets sarcastic about it. Like GrumpyOldNurse.
*except you’re not a child, and we don’t care if you do leave.
Damn. Rookie mistake.
whoever wrote the article is a way kinder person than the callous responder, we need more people like that
You guys are really hurtful and insulting people and leave Billy alone, you don’t know anything about him, so don’t tell him he will or won’t be missed. I’m sure there are people that actually have the decency to get to know a human being before making judgments like that. You haters.