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On Reddit, a woman explains to other women why men hate them

Wonder Woman: Always alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.
Wonder Woman: Forever alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.

NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.

Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.

Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.

FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:

[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.

Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”

But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.

Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.

[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?

When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.

You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?

But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)

Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?

I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

None of these things are inherently male traits.

Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.

Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Says you.  Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.

And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.

The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.

Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.

The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with. 

In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?

So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”

By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.

At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.

Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.

“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.

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katz
10 years ago

In fairness to the wall-of-text person, zie is referencing a real thing: the famous Torches of Freedom PR campaign. But somehow zie got from “cigarette companies saw suffrage as an opportunity to promote smoking among women” to “men make everyone do everything because TV.”

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Wall-of-text dude is almost at TimeCube levels of weirdness.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

Dr Batty’s asthma cigarettes

Not recommended for children under the age of 6.

vaiyt
10 years ago

The American manosphere obsession with men dying in war sounds pretty amusing to me. Not counting the small group we sent in WWII to pay lip service to the Americans, the men in this neck of the woods haven’t been dying in war for about 150 years. Hey, assholes, maybe you could try not getting your country involved in so many goddamn wars?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Canker Sours sound like the worst candy ever.

contrapangloss
10 years ago

I’m still trying to figure out why guilt thinks women should be more feminine when he’s also advocating that men don’t do the whole marriage thing.

Femine women can bring home the bacon, but he feels more like a “get back to the kitchen” bro with regards to his definition of feminine, which is directly at odds with the “support yourself”-ness because “men won’t”.

Trolls are really hard to figure out at o’dark-thirty.

pallygirl
pallygirl
10 years ago

Maybe they need a snickers bar. Do you have the “you’re mean when you’re hungry” ad campaign for snickers in your countries?

katz
10 years ago

LMAO at the asthma cigarettes.

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
10 years ago

@pallygirl: We do indeed! Although I’m particularly digging the various meme versions that would probably apply to some of the more angry visitors as well, especially “Everyone is a mean meanie-pants” Jennifer up there.

http://oftencoldinstitute.com/dept_of_obscure_cultural_references/large.png

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

Poor Grumpy, she’s supposedly actually very friendly, but stuck with a permanent look of grump. The inverse of MRAs trying to play nice? You can put a (long) tie on Esmay, but he’s still bitter? Idk, they don’t dress up well so this analogy fails…LOOK OVER THERE! CATS!!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

Oh, though I suppose depending what you smoke it could make your breath smell better…depending on the answer to “better than what?”

Flintstone vitamins or cloves? Yeah, I’d rather not smell like fake grape (also, ugh, I still hate the purple ones) Of course, cloves or toothpaste mint? Yeah, the latter wins that one.

Random complaint — the idea that white teeth are some required standard of beauty. My answer to that is to tip my coffee and light up. Because nope, not gonna happen.

/utter randomness (I need coffee!)

Susan Borden
Susan Borden
10 years ago

Wow I thought only muslims hated women, apparently not, so I assume you are now going to men for sex. Having sex with a gender you hate is so evil. Oh well such is life enjoy your women free lives.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
10 years ago

Wat.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
10 years ago

Thanks for the Islamophobia, Susan. It really added to the conversation.

weirwoodtreehugger
10 years ago

Someone’s been watching too much Fox News.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

???????
Did…
Did that just happen?

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
10 years ago

Thanks for the Islamophobia, Susan. It really added to the conversation.

My spidey sense detected a hint of homophobia, too. Susan really is the total package.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
10 years ago

Well, that rubbish took a bit of parsing. I’m still not sure who Susan was talking to.

I checked to see if this one had been around before. She reminded me of “Erin”. Her IP’s new, not that that means anything. It’d take more comments to see if any troll tells show up.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

WTF is this thread. Susan, thanks for getting word vomit all over the carpet. That’s a pain in the ass to get out.

Susan Borden
Susan Borden
10 years ago

Homophobia does not exist you morons, that is a word invented by muslims so the civilized world won’t expose them for the evil they are. However it makes sense you assholes would be okay with that cult, right up your women hating alley.

pallygirl
pallygirl
10 years ago

Emailed mods.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
10 years ago

What are you drivelling about, troll? You don’t even know the difference between homophobia and Islamophobia? Seems you don’t even know what misogyny means, or mocking it. Otherwise, how do you figure that “mocking misogyny” is something women-haters do?

How do we score this troll, people? Low count for word salad, but it goes up a bit for being impressively stupid even by troll standards.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
10 years ago

I can’t get rid of the troll but I can give it TROLL GRIEF by zapping any further stuff that comes through.

::rubs hands in anticipation::

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

So Susan is Lizzy’s much less intelligent cousin, right? I’m going to take a stab in the dark (see what I did there?) and guess that his name is not actually Susan on account of him being a rather boringly predictable dudebro troll, too.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
10 years ago

Ditto. Female nym, female email nym – means zilch.

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