NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.
Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.
Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.
FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:
[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.
Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”
But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.
Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.
[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).
And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?
When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.
You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?
But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)
Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?
I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.
None of these things are inherently male traits.
Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.
Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.
The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.
Says you. Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.
And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.
The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.
Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.
The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with.
In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.
The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.
Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?
So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”
“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”
By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.
At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.
Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.
“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.”
aj, you are agreeing with someone who is telling women to make their desires for their own bodies secondary to the desires of men, to refrain from competing with men to accomplish their goals, and to wait on men hand and foot. You are agreeing with all of this because, as you’ve said, “men are people too.” Can you recognize that what FleetingWish is describing sounds a lot more like men are people only?
By the way, thank goodness divorce is an option available to people who are unhappy in their marriages. My mom was once married to a man who believed that he should never have to sacrifice his personal and professional goals for family, and that she was obligated to take up the slack. She’s been in a much more equal, much happier marriage for 14 years now.
Yay! Moar necro-trolls! Hulk SMASH!
Sure you do. Actually, I bet YOU get stood up, and you sit there trying not to cry in your beer, wondering why no one likes you.
Plain English: Learn to speak it. That way, you won’t have so much trouble communicating with women, and you won’t be stuck believing that it’s them who suck, when in fact it was you all along.
Says the 12-year-old with the zitty ass who lost his virginity to a knothole full of bees.
Yawwwwn. Same old boring flailing and histrionics. Can’t you guys come up with even ONE original thought?
aj, honey bear, this is you:
Me do writing! Women R bad! Me Man! Man no need you! *walks away alternately sobbing and mumbling about being a honest to goodness Real Man who can so go out on his own, no matter what his mommy says*
“Business”? The vast majority of businesses have hours when they are open and accepting customers, and hours when they are closed. And yet – incredibly – despite this rude effrontery, somehow they manage to stay in business.
And why do I feel like you’re talking in euphemisms? What exactly was this important business transaction that needed to take place at 11:32 pm? Was it something that could have been handled by an industry competitor, i.e. a sock, or a piece of Kleenex?
Is it also possible that you babbled hostile nonsense into the phone at this poor woman and she decided it wasn’t worth the trouble of interacting further? You’re not dealing with business there, Chief. You’re dealing with common sense.
No, you don’t. You fantasize about doing this inside your head, and brag about it on the internet for high-fives, because it’s the only kind of validation available to you.
Since it’s a story, I’ll supply the ending for you: The woman you blew off heaves a huge sigh of relief at dodging a bullet. Thank God he didn’t show up, she thinks. She was a little iffy about meeting you anyway; you struck her as immature and self-absorbed, and this just confirms her suspicions. She goes home, calmly blocks you from further contact, and moves on.
She continues dating and eventually meets an excellent partner whom she adores, and vice versa. She sets up house with her partner, travels, takes up hobbies, acquires pets, moves up in her career, expands her circle of friends, volunteers, makes the world a better place.
Then Ryan Gosling shows up with ponies and chocolate. The end.
lol wut? Maybe she needs to change the Men she’s around if treating her Men like that is such a life threatening proposition
And then Gosling volunteers to be the pony.
(Hey, it’s getting a bit boring watching all the angry incel types scream about Brad Pitt, we may as well at least give them a more current designated lust object to ragewank about.)
People, society has gotten really really weird. Comments sections on nearly every webpage show you how wacked it all is. We are dis-evolving!!! White, Western society, ultra-feminist, uber-gay, anti-reproduction. Okay, that’s all fine and well, as long as we still have an endless supply of cheap oil. Think that’s off-topic? no way. When the resources run short, we will plunge into perma-recession. And they will run short. Then all the feminist, gay, save everyone in the world except us, agendas go straight out the window. No one will care, no one will be able to afford to care because we’ll be struggling, living hand-to-mouth. Back to the 1800’s we go.
Seriously think about how this world (America) was made stable and safe by men, (white European men especially), with infrastructure, stable markets, police/military deterrents, and a culture of cooperation that has propelled us into a truly advanced society. Life expectancy is 80, infant mortality all but gone, cheap food, medicine, etc…
Now, we use the rights and safety provided by this male-dominated society so that we can turn around, and then disavow it. Say how terrible it is, how hard our life is because of these males. These males which gave us the ability and where with all to be able to do this in the first place. Then, we complain about how men run the world, the safe and stable world we live in; the safe and stable world which was achieved with hard work from everyone; innovative ideas, military and political genius, etc.. Oh, how terrible these penis-ridden creatures are to have provided this, and how dare they actually want to continue to run this extremely successful model themselves, the model which they created over thousands of years. Why can’t they just turn it over to some other gender or ethnic group that has absolutely no track record of success. How dare they? Oh, a white guy running a company that his father built; what a racist, misogynistic pig.
This is utterly hilarious!!! We are dis-evolving. Dis-evolving because in 30 years, there will be no one left to give the gay community a political voice, to give radical feminism a political voice, to save the children in some over-populated country so they can grow up and compete for resources with us. Because gays don’t have kids; radical feminists don’t have kids; and really white people don’t have kids either. We rose to the top of evolution, only to turn on ourselves and then dis-evolve. Because of guilt about our success, impassioned libralism, counter-intuitive feminism. Bashing religious values while quoting evolution and Darwinism. All the while promoting homosexuality and asexuality, two completely anti-darwinistic principles. We’re a just massive contradiction. But don’t worry, we will die off and be supplanted by Muslims and orthodox Catholics, two not-so-libral and very close-minded, patriarchal societies.
Is this what you want? I hope so, because this is what you are going to get if you don’t have kids. Remember, that’s how you got here.
A little too preachy and academic, but whatevs.
“Too academic”? I literally LOL’d.
LOL dis-evolving wut?
Oh noes, if only the Muslims and orthodox Catholics (huh?) will give us their secrets to prevent the collapse of our society once cheap oil and ?other resources run out.
Yes that comment was much too academic and smarty pants for my feeble lady brainz to comprehend.
Since we evil wimminz these days spend our twenties riding the cock carousel instead of reproducing, aren’t we the terrible penis ridden creatures? Since the number of cocks we’ve had imprints on our vaginas and all.
I’m seriously trying to figure out how homosexual people and feminists can’t have children.
Does “BeaverWatch” seriously believe that homosexuality and/or feminism makes a person infertile?
Sorry, not taking any crap about devolving from someone going by “BeaverWatch.” There’s some evolved shit right there.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *deep inhale* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I can’t be bothered to engage with all the stupid in BW’s comment (which is a lovely example of both crank magnetism and how prejudices tend to cluster), but I did like the part where the world is apparently stable and safe now. Maybe if you’re a cishet white man (CWM) with a decent income, but a shitload of people even in the mighty West are living in danger right this second. And where advances have been made, those advances were made because minorities fought for them. Men didn’t fight to make marital rape a crime or create shelters for battered women. Straight people didn’t make Matthew Shepherd a household name. CWM didn’t just bestow these things on us – in most cases, they were the ones threatening and harming us – and if they did just up and decide one day to treat us like people after all, I still wouldn’t thank them for it, because it took them 10,000 years or so to get around to it.
Also, gay people can’t have kids? Someone should have told my partner’s moms…
Well, sorry feminists need to be oiled every day. If I don’t my hinges get hella squeaky.
I’m always amused by the peak oil cranks because, of all the doomsday scenarios, that’s the one that’s essentially mathematically impossible.
This topic often comes up among climate-change scientists because, oddly, it would be a good thing: A natural, imminent limit to the oil supply would curtail the possible effects of climate change. But the math just doesn’t work out. We’ve got too much oil and way too much coal, and if we simply continue consuming it at current rates, atmospheric CO2 will rise enough to cause a cataclysm long before we run out.
Also, if everyone stopped having kids, then we wouldn’t have to worry about running out of resources. Dumbass.
Also also, why only back to the 1800s, the century of the Industrial Revolution?
I’m bored, so here goes!
“People, society has gotten really really weird. Comments sections on nearly every webpage show you how wacked it all is.”
TRUFAX! Random people coming in and necro’ing threads to rant really is whack! (There’s an h in the word btw)
“We are dis-evolving!!!”
Not a word, and stop abusing punctuation, what has it ever done to you?
“White, Western society, ultra-feminist, uber-gay, anti-reproduction.”
What? Is that how politicians are pushing laws to make abortion easily accessed regardless of all other factors if she says she was raped? Oh, right. They’re doing the opposite.
“Okay, that’s all fine and well, as long as we still have an endless supply of cheap oil. Think that’s off-topic? no way. When the resources run short, we will plunge into perma-recession. And they will run short.”
Unfortunately, no they won’t. Would be nice to be forced to use greener fuels though.
“Then all the feminist, gay, save everyone in the world except us, agendas go straight out the window. No one will care, no one will be able to afford to care because we’ll be struggling, living hand-to-mouth. Back to the 1800′s we go.”
So. Much. Fail. First off, there’ve been rich people for A Very Long Time. Secondly, the Victorian era had a proper middle class, we don’t anymore. Thirdly, medicine et al won’t just go POOF! Nobody is going to revert to miasma theory (there’s a new word for you huh? Might want to research the 19th century before pulling ASSFAX)
“Seriously think about how this world (America) was made stable and safe by men, (white European men especially),”
Yes, safe for them maybe. Wiped out native populations to do so and you know who dealt with those requirements like FEEDING PEOPLE? Hint, it wasn’t men.
“with infrastructure, stable markets, police/military deterrents, and a culture of cooperation that has propelled us into a truly advanced society. Life expectancy is 80, infant mortality all but gone, cheap food, medicine, etc…”
*dies laughing* story time! Because you’ve clearly never been flat broke. Never been so broke that your minimum wage job wasn’t gonna cover medical expenses so you didn’t fill your scripts since insurance called it pre-existing and $400+ for one pill is obscene. Never tried eating when your food options were the gas station’s apples and cereal, the dollar store or Subway. Never tried making a simple PB&J when the only bread you could get was made with HFCS instead of sugar (probably have no idea how bread is made, because, oh yeah, that’ same thing traditionally relegated to “women’s work”). Never had anyone you know arrested while OBSERVING a protest in which the police attacked nonviolent protesters, or for merely talking to a cop in a manner said cop didn’t like. Never been robbed of literally your last dollar (not a fun day of my life). I could continue showing you your ass, but you’ve left plenty more of it hanging in the wind, so we should move on.
“Now, we use the rights and safety provided by this male-dominated society so that we can turn around, and then disavow it. Say how terrible it is, how hard our life is because of these males. These males which gave us the ability and where with all to be able to do this in the first place.”
Yes yes, men hunted mammoths, we know. Did you know that while they did that women did things like collecting berries and other plants and the rest of the food, since mammoths are actually not easy to kill and drag home? In other words, guess you fed your ass while you were off bringing home the feast? And in more recent times, nurses. I would like to see society manage to function without them.
“Then, we complain about how men run the world, the safe and stable world we live in; the safe and stable world which was achieved with hard work from everyone; innovative ideas, military and political genius, etc..”
More mammoths, and more ignorance to how not safe nor stable the world is for people who aren’t relatively well off, able bodied, cis, straight white men. You know, people who aren’t afraid of being assaulted for simply existing, people who aren’t afraid of whether they’ll be allowed access to basic services or will find a lack of handicap accessibility, or afraid of staying out too long, lest they need to use a bathroom. And let’s not forget housing, safe and stable if you can afford safe and stable housing, which means not facing job discrimination, not facing a future where “crime” (e.g. sex work) is a means of survival. None of that still happens, nope.
“Oh, how terrible these penis-ridden creatures”
Cis-centric much?
“…are to have provided this, and how dare they actually want to continue to run this extremely successful model themselves, the model which they created over thousands of years.”
Totally by themselves without any slave labor or help running the household and raising their kids. And it is totally successful of course, we’ve solved every social justice issue. No wait, we shouldn’t try because that’d be taking away the hard earned success of everyone who happened to be born with a penis.
“Why can’t they just turn it over to some other gender or ethnic group that has absolutely no track record of success. How dare they? Oh, a white guy running a company that his father built; what a racist, misogynistic pig.”
Saw that racism coming a mile away! Nobody is suggesting a goddamnit coup. See above about straight white cis men and not questioning if you’ll have to go into sex work, or whether to buy food or meds. What we want is your skin color, genitals, gender identity, who you love, etc, not to inherently put you above or below anyone else. But that’s apparently saying we want to stop men from inherently their father’s businesses? Whaa…?
“This is utterly hilarious!!! We are dis-evolving.”
Still not a word.
“Dis-evolving because in 30 years, there will be no one left to give the gay community a political voice, to give radical feminism a political voice, to save the children in some over-populated country so they can grow up and compete for resources with us. Because gays don’t have kids; radical feminists don’t have kids; and really white people don’t have kids either.”
Huh what? I need to go call my cousins, and their kids, and inform them that they don’t exist because mom/grandmom was a second wave feminist.
And I’m pretty sure that people can become feminists and care about people in other countries by way of things not genetic.
White people don’t have kids? Then why is my FB feed full of babies, most of them white? HOW AM I TYPING THIS EVEN??? Oh gods, I don’t exist! *poof!*
“We rose to the top of evolution, only to turn on ourselves and then dis-evolve.”
1) that’s not how evolution works
2) still not a word
“Because of guilt about our success, impassioned libralism, counter-intuitive feminism.”
“We’re different but you’re still a person entitled to the same things as me”…totally counter-intuitive!
“Bashing religious values while quoting evolution and Darwinism.”
Saw that coming.
“All the while promoting homosexuality and asexuality, two completely anti-darwinistic principles. We’re a just massive contradiction.”
You do get that plenty of people raise non-biological children and that in many cases this is better than if the biological parents had raised the child, right? And that I could, if you were interesting and actually looking for an academic discussion, dig up proof that non-reproducing individuals are actually beneficial to society at large. Things like helping raise other people’s children.
“But don’t worry, we will die off and be supplanted by Muslims and orthodox Catholics, two not-so-libral and very close-minded, patriarchal societies.”
THOSE BROWN PEOPLE ARE MATING!!
“Is this what you want?”
People mating as desired? Yes, yes it is.
Oh, you meant that liberals will die off because we don’t make enough liberal BABIESSSSS. Yes dear, that’s nice, got any science to support that or just some racism?
“I hope so, because this is what you are going to get if you don’t have kids. Remember, that’s how you got here.”
You heard it here guys, if I don’t have kids I’ll be dooming feminism. Risking passing on a variety of mental disorders is moot, gotta go make them babies!
Think I’d rather raise someone else’s should I ever be stable enough to support a kid.
“A little too preachy and academic, but whatevs.”
*dies* Academic? You made up words to propel your bigoted shit that isn’t remotely based in science, and provided no science for any of it that might have any bias in reality.
It was preachy though, first true thing you’ve said!
W00t, massive teal dear award for me!
I found a better kind of beaver watch.
Would it scare you to know that “white” and “male” are social constructs and that the reproduction of the species can continue without a single man?
I’m bored (and sort of grumpy… between the news, a friend dying and other shit, I’m in a mood).
Seriously think about how this world (America)
If you think America = This world… you are about 2,000 lbs short of a ton.
was made stable and safe by men, (white European men especially),
Unless of course you were a non-white man. Then you would have to say it was made unsafe by them (the indigenous people were driven off, and killed. Blacks were imported to be slaves; women were chattel, etc.).
. Life expectancy is 80, infant mortality all but gone, cheap food, medicine, etc…
Life expectancy in the US is dropping. Cuba has a longer life expectancy than we do. Infant mortality… that’s one of the reasons my partners and I are thinking of having our children in Canada. Medicines in the US cost more than they do in every other country in which those medicines are sold.
yep, more than a couple thousand pounds short of a ton.
Say how terrible it is, how hard our life is because of these males. These males which gave us the ability and where with all to be able to do this in the first place.
See above. Being a second class citizen (when one isn’t a third class, or non-citizen) isn’t something to be praising. It’s not something to revel in.
Implying that this is an ideal state of affairs is a pretty asshole thing to do. You think women and non-whites ought to be second class citizens? And they ought to be grateful for it?
Go to hell.
My condolences pecunium, you know that my inbox is always open.
S’ok. My lovely wife was with her folks; and there was train trouble. Off to bed soon, as she is home.