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On Reddit, a woman explains to other women why men hate them

Wonder Woman: Always alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.
Wonder Woman: Forever alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.

NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.

Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.

Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.

FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:

[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.

Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”

But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.

Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.

[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?

When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.

You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?

But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)

Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?

I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

None of these things are inherently male traits.

Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.

Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Says you.  Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.

And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.

The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.

Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.

The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with. 

In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?

So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”

By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.

At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.

Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.

“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.

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sparky
sparky
6 years ago

It’s not like David’s name is right up there t the top of the blog or on the by-line of every post or anything.

M. the Social Justice Ranger
M. the Social Justice Ranger
6 years ago

feminism? Liberalism / socialism? which side are any of us on. yikes! Being single is now deadly. wtf? love lost as i see it. sad.

… Are we sure that this one was from Jason James Joey Joe-Joe Jr and not a spambot?

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

I feel so sorry for Scott…it must be awfully lonely to be a trollosexual.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

OTOH there are always people online somewhere in the world, so the trollosexual can get himself at any time? Shame it’s no fun for the people on the receiving end.

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

And the idea that misogynist men don’t like it when women get angry at and mock misogyny? And that’s supposed to be some horrible consequence of women’s anger at and mocking of misogyny? To make us stop?

No, Scott, major, major fail in those two little sentences. Damn that’s a lot of fail.

Shiraz
Shiraz
6 years ago

Oh Scott, who gives a fuck what sexist men think?

Alessandra
Alessandra
6 years ago

I read it ALL. ALL! Just wow. I would like to issue a few ‘fuck you’s’ to the necro trolls and a big, hearty hug (only after receiving verbal consent, of course) to all my humans who are, indeed, human. You folk are the best.

I don’t think humanity is “dis-evolving”, but I am starting to wonder if there’s a covert inbreeding program I’m unaware of. The amount of troll bile piled on this post makes me believe it is so. How does one become so unfathomably obtuse?

Oh well. I guess I’m just going to have to fumble around in my womanly way and hope I run into someone to worship soon lest my ovaries turn to dust before I can fulfill my biological function as a female sperm repository and wash and fold service. Oh, wherever could my prince be. *sigh*

Jesse
Jesse
6 years ago

What I am glad about is that feminist nutters like yourself will be bread out of the gene pool in a few generations. No one will ever want to have kids with you. Funny thing is I wasn’t like this until I met me some real died-in-the-wool feminists. The kind of women who I double and triple check is taking the pill before I fuck them. Because sex is really all you offer. ‘Women’ are obliged to provide for ‘Men’, you are obliged to provide for your partner. That there is the core problem. Again, I am so glad you are going extinct because the world can do with less of you.

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

<blockquoteWhat I am glad about is that feminist nutters like yourself will be bread out of the gene pool in a few generations.

Rye or whole wheat?

Funny thing is I wasn’t like this until I met me some real died-in-the-wool feminists.

Uh-huh. Yeah, sure you weren’t. Meeting feminists just magically turned you into a raging asshole.

Because sex is really all you offer. ‘Women’ are obliged to provide for ‘Men’, you are obliged to provide for your partner.

Yep, before you met any feminists you were just a fine human being who viewed women as fellow human beings rather than sexual playthings for men. Yep.

Again, I am so glad you are going extinct because the world can do with less of you.

You do understand that a philosophy/ideology/political stance/worldview isn’t transmitted genetically, right? What am I saying? Of course you don’t.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

feminist nutters like yourself will be bread out of the gene pool in a few generations

Well, bread in the gene pool would get soggy pretty quickly.

Billy
Billy
6 years ago

I will be brutally honest. I am not a misogynist, but after the past 5 years (age 29 to 34) I am done with dating or persuing women for the next couple of years at best. Tired of being treated like an object of utility.

Billy

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
6 years ago

I’ll be brutally honest right back atcha. Maybe you’ve been dating the wrong kind of women and are simply extrapolating from your own bad experiences to the whole female gender? Maybe you’ve been treating women like objects of utility and hate it when they’re treating you in the same manner?

Either way, no, you are indeed very much a misogynist.

And either way, no one cares, Necro-Billy.

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

I’m not a misogynist, I just show up late to conversations about misogyny to declare that women are all awful in the same way. Who among us would not have done the same?!??

KSRay
KSRay
6 years ago

And there are still no exceptions to the rule that anything following “I am not [blank]-ist, but…” will be [blank]-ist.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Why do so many internet dudes think we care about either their dating lives or boner preferences?

We don’t care, guys.

Sorry.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

Gosh, don’t you hate it when you meet someone online, get to talking and laughing, and finally get comfortable enough to set up your first in-person date? You’re all nervous, wearing clothes you haven’t worn in forever, hoping to make a good first impression? You go to the restaurant, nervous as all hell, looking at each woman and wondering if she was the one you were talking to?

You finally find her, laugh awkwardly as you mosey over to your table, try to figure out what would make a good conversation starter without being too cliche. Idle chatter as you pretend to look over the menu while trying not to stare too hard at the person you only knew by text.

And as the bread comes out and the drinks are poured and the conversation settles, she puts her menu down, looks you straight in the eye, and says:

“So, what use are you to me?”

Puts me right off dating, that.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

I think it’s that annoying MGTOW habit of standing on the porch, knapsack over shoulder, shouting “I’m leaving now! You’ll miss me when I’m gone!

…I said you’re gonna miss me! Hellooo? Are you even listening?”

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

That was aimed at WWTH, oops.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

I’m gonna back up and necro the necro troll, because Billy’s proclamation is kind of boring. If you want to take a break, Billy, you don’t need our permission. It’s quite all right.

What I am glad about is that feminist nutters like yourself will be bread out of the gene pool in a few generations. No one will ever want to have kids with you.

And yet feminists have kids all the time, and will continue to have kids, while guys like you loaf around on the sidelines and challah about being oppressed by buns and women who don’t know their roll in society.

Funny thing is I wasn’t like this until I met me some real died-in-the-wool feminists.

Died-in-the-wool feminists? I hope they were buried in their sweaters.

Joking aside, it’s pretty pointless to blame turning into a terrible person on feminists. It’s pretty clear you were one all along. You just don’t want to take responsibility for it. You want to offload it onto us so you can go on fooling yourself into thinking you’re a good person, and how can you help being terrible when other people are MAKING you be terrible because they won’t agree with your opinions and do as you say and what choice does a good person have in this world but to be terrible??

Nope. This one’s on you, sunshine.

The kind of women who I double and triple check is taking the pill before I fuck them.

Yeah, cool story, bro. I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess you’ve never had sex with a feminist. No feminist would let you anywhere near them,

And how exactly do you double and triple check that someone is taking the pill? Sounds like another cool story.

Because sex is really all you offer. ‘Women’ are obliged to provide for ‘Men’, you are obliged to provide for your partner. That there is the core problem. Again, I am so glad you are going extinct because the world can do with less of you.

Why are ‘Women’ and ‘Men’ in ‘quotes’? Perhaps because this is ‘total bullshit’?

Well, whatever. The world will go on populating and being merry and forming adult bonds with one another, while you sit there getting angrier and angrier at the women who steer clear of you and your one-way obligational model of relationships. Enjoy.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

I will be brutally honest. I am not a misogynist, but after the past 5 years (age 29 to 34) I am done with dating or persuing women for the next couple of years at best. Tired of being treated like an object of utility.

Good.

Please continue not to date anyone, you will not be missed.

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

NOOOOOO!!!!!!! Don’t leave us, Billy! We can change! We won’t be all uppity and angry any more! I totally promise!* No more feminism for us! We totally give up! Just don’t leave us! We’ll make moar sammiches! PLEASE DON’T GOOOOOOO!!!!!! ::slumps to the floor, sobbing hysterically::

*not an actual promise

Paradoxical Intention
6 years ago

Billy | March 12, 2015 at 12:50 pm

I will be brutally honest. I am not a misogynist, but after the past 5 years (age 29 to 34) I am done with dating or persuing women for the next couple of years at best. Tired of being treated like an object of utility.

Billy

First, what the foxtrot is up with peeps like this signing their comments? I can see your name, Billy-bob. You don’t need to repeat it. Especially with such a short comment. It’s redundant.

Now, on to the meat of this conversation! *knuckle crack*

“I’m not a ________, but…” statements are very important, because everything after the but will prove you extremely wrong about you not being whatever it was you put in the blank (in this case, “misogynist”).

From what I can read in this comment, you weren’t the only one in your relationships being treated like an object. Who the fuck talks about “persuing” [sic] a woman? We’re not wild animals you’re hunting, we’re people ya moldy bag of butt-plugs. You don’t “pursue” a woman. You sit us down and talk to us like we’re adult people that you’d like to get to know, not snipe us from a distance with an elephant rifle.

And if you’re done dating and “pursuing” women, good. No one curr. Leave. Go. Bye-Bye. Adios. TTFF (Ta-Ta For Forever).

The only time that guys like you come in here to necro old threads with the “I’m leaving and not coming back!” talk is because you want someone to cry and beg you not to go. Like loosing you and your peen is the punishment of the century for us silly wimmens sitting firmly under the feminist label. It’s like a child threatening to run away because you didn’t get your cookies, except your not a child, and we don’t care if you do leave. We just want you to close the front door. You’re letting in a draft, and I’m not paying to heat up the neighborhood!

It’s not going to happen unless someone gets sarcastic about it. Like GrumpyOldNurse.

Paradoxical Intention
6 years ago

*except you’re not a child, and we don’t care if you do leave.

Damn. Rookie mistake.

John
John
5 years ago

whoever wrote the article is a way kinder person than the callous responder, we need more people like that

John
John
5 years ago

You guys are really hurtful and insulting people and leave Billy alone, you don’t know anything about him, so don’t tell him he will or won’t be missed. I’m sure there are people that actually have the decency to get to know a human being before making judgments like that. You haters.

sparky
sparky
5 years ago

Dismissing an entire gender based on bad dating experiences: Not hurtful or insulting.

Tellingl someone who randomly posted that they are “done with dating and perusing [sic] women” on a 2-year-old thread as if that is somehow relevant to anything “OK! Bye-bye! You can go your own way now, like you said you are going to!”: Hurtful and insulting.

Thanks for clearing that up, John.

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

Feels like we’re having quite a few trolls and necro threads recently.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Billy comes in here (we didn’t go to him so I don’t understand why we’re supposed to have an obligation to leave him alone) to tell us how we’re so awful. A whole gender. Awful! All we did was respond by affirming his decision. Why would any of us want misogynists in the dating pool.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

A drive-by post with a sweeping generalization about how terrible women are isn’t going to garner a lot of sympathy, no.

Billy didn’t get what he wanted from the dating world, so rather than do the adult thing and figure out “why?” or adjust his expectations, he’s taking his bat and ball and going home. He didn’t ask for advice or help. He didn’t say he was sad or confused. No, he just wanted to lash out at us and run away. There’s not much you can say to someone like that.

If the commenters here seem to be less than patient, it’s because we’ve seen a thousand MGTOW trolls like Billy, who can’t seem to actually GTOW without first trying to get back at all of womenkind for imaginary injustices. That gets really old after awhile. It’s pretty disingenuous of you to scold us for not responding to Billy’s rude post with warm fuzzies and apologies and cookies.

You and Billy both need to learn how manners work.

I’m sure there are people that actually have the decency to get to know a human being before making judgments like that. You haters.

But you’re somehow exempt from this requirement to get to know people before judging them?

bigboy
bigboy
5 years ago

How cute the kittens are out!
Feminists and kittens, what a cute couple you are.

Oh, by the way I’m mgtow, nice to make your fucking acquaintance.

First, your right, a man created feminism his name was Vladimir Lenin. For two reasons, 1. To destroy society 2. Tax women.
Congratulations! SLOW CLAP

Speaking about getting laid for the guy who’s getting attacked.
“God gave men the urges, and women the answers, don’t like it, set up a meeting with him.”

katz
5 years ago

Oh, by the way I’m mgtow, nice to make your fucking acquaintance.

By definition, you are not.

gelar
gelar
5 years ago

“God gave men the urges, and women the answers, don’t like it, set up a meeting with him.”

The answer is, “use your hand.”

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

That was just sad.

I guess he gets a point for blaming feminism on Lenin instead of Stalin. But I thought feminism was a scheme to tax men? I mean, I thought the funds for the CIA feminist check I get every month came from hard working men? I also don’t pay any taxes on the child support checks I get despite not having any children. Perhaps my lady brain is just confused. We all know lady brains can’t math.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

Why the hell would we care if women are taxed? Every citizen is taxed. That just doesn’t make sense.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
5 years ago

Aw, men are so cute when they’re angry 🙂

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Why does their Own Way™ always track a path right through here, loop around back through a dozen or so times, meander off to another feminism blog, maybe stop at a few comment sections with loose moderation along the way…

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Oh, by the way I’m mgtow, nice to make your fucking acquaintance.

Well, aren’t you the cutest little troll to crawl out from the sludge pit? Charmed, I’m fucking sure.

First, your right, a man created feminism his name was Vladimir Lenin. For two reasons, 1. To destroy society 2. Tax women.
Congratulations! SLOW CLAP

MEEEEEEP! Wrong.

Feminism was invented BY women, FOR women, before V.I. Lenin was ever even heard of. It’s been with us in various forms and around the world for as long as there’s been male dominance and women chafing against it.

Its purpose: 1. Freedom from male dominance. 2. Equality of rights and freedoms. 3. HAPPINESS FOR ALL, EVEN TEH MENZ!

It’s got about as much to do with Lenin as chalk has to do with cheese. Or you have to do with intelligence, spelling, grammar, etc.

Now run along, back to your hole. Your Fleshlight is waiting.

bigboy
bigboy
5 years ago

1. By definition yes I am
2. Your right Joseph Stalin put it on steroids.
3. You mean Betty Freiden? Who was a well known and proud communist, read her quotes.
4. Laughing but not angry.
5. Use your hand, better than those who say “I need a man that can keep up with me.” Lol “yeah, why don’t you go ahead and go home, I got to get up in the morning.”
5. Going your own way, which women are confused as hell about, could lead to just about anything.
6. Cutest little troll, I’m one of those guys you can’t ever resist, “bad boy.”
7. Men use grammar and spelling to attract women, I’m not trying to attract you.

contrapangloss
5 years ago

“I’m going my own way so hard I have to leave a list of seven things that I HAVE to tell you including that you must be attracted to me because I’m a bad boy. But I’m totally not trying to attract you, because LOOK AT MY GRAMMAR AND ITS BADNESS!”

Okay, fine. I really like seven: it’s not like men need to use good grammar and spelling for anything other than attracting women! You know, like business emails, or patient care reports, or literature, or scientific papers, or journal articles, or…

Nah. All proper diction ever used by a man is solely for the benefit of women and their feels.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

7. Men use grammar and spelling to attract women, I’m not trying to attract you.

We do? I usually use it because I enjoy writing, or because I’m trying to entertain people with my writing, or even because I don’t want to get fired by writing a report which reads poorly. I must have missed a memo.

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Big boy
Who are you The Count? And you used the number 5 twice.

“Going your own way, which women are confused as hell about, could lead to just about anything.”

So in your case “being the annoying cock that won’t leave women alone because he’s desperate for attention” way?

“I’m not trying to attract you.”

Then what’s this?

“I’m one of those guys you can’t ever resist, “bad boy.”

Boy, we sure do love a man who mansplains to us what we want /s Seriously you’re not all that stop flattering yourself.

Men should only use their proper grammar and punctuation skills to “woo” a woman and not for journalism, writing books, etc?

epitome of incomprehensibility

7. Men use grammar and spelling to attract women, I’m not trying to attract you.

Why, you’re right! If you’d just used a semicolon instead of a comma there, I’d be head-over-heels in love with you right now. Sadly, it’s too late.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Real Bad(Grammar) Boys use the Grocer’s Apostrophe; women love that.

Of course, if you’re into the kinky stuff, go with an Oxford Comma.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
5 years ago

I think #7 is the greatest troll neg that has ever graced the pages of WHTM. A+, would LOL again.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

They don’t see what value women can provide for them

Because it’s normal to hate people you can’t personally use?
Creepy.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

bigboy,
This post is years old. What is wrong with you?

And kiddo, these kitten have claws. You’ve been warned.

katz
5 years ago

2. Your right Joseph Stalin put it on steroids.

You have no idea.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/904e6777b7cc8aa673399a1120cbb335/tumblr_mlrw13nTuj1soiv6eo1_500.jpg

bigboy
bigboy
5 years ago

I knew you would love the good old number 7.
See, with my bad boy years, I dated women in their prime, see then around 28, either we get bored, or you have the good old “I don’t know what I want,” phase. So you go on the Internet looking for the white knight, which never shows up, you have a “girls night out,” cry about it. Then 35ish you become a ultra feminist.

I use number 5, twice? Made sure you got the point.

Me trolling, women troll into our forums, every day. How do you like dealing with a troll? It sucks doesn’t it. Little pay back, of course.

Moocow
Moocow
5 years ago

Perhaps this would be an appropriate time for some Jedi cats?

(hope that worked)

contrapangloss
5 years ago

Nah, dealing with a straightforward troll is kind of relaxing compared to kerfuffles with the non-straightforward ones. I mean, this is some lovely low level obvious trolling.

I can laugh my head off and the world is fine because it’s just so silly!

Also: BREAKING NEWS FROM TROLL! Girls nights out transforms 28 Year Old Woman into 35 Year Old Ultra Feminist: Unseelie Sidhe Involvement Suspected.

More after the break.

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