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On Reddit, a woman explains to other women why men hate them

Wonder Woman: Always alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.
Wonder Woman: Forever alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.

NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.

Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.

Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.

FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:

[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.

Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”

But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.

Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.

[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?

When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.

You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?

But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)

Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?

I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

None of these things are inherently male traits.

Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.

Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Says you.  Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.

And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.

The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.

Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.

The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with. 

In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?

So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”

By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.

At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.

Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.

“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.

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Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

@Athywren: A pride of lions, a pack of wolves, a herd of cows, a brood of chickens, a troupe of chimpanzees, a society of humans… call it what you like, we are still part of the animal kingdom and we still work with animal instincts.

That’s fine, but if I told you that women naturally laid eggs and sat on them for a while until they hatched, you’d call me a delusional idiot. We very much are a part of the animal kingdom, but the species we should model our behaviour on is homo sapiens, not canis lupus.

Two question, If you were stranded on an deserted island with a choice of only one partner for the rest of your life would you choose the redneck hunter/survivor or the sensitive doctor?

Doctor. (Sensitive? Have you met any doctors!?) Even the least survivalistic of us can figure out how to fish, making fire’s relatively simple so long as you have the right kind of wood or stone, you figure out how to make a decent shelter soon enough. But if I break my leg, I want someone who can keep me alive, not someone who knows how they can preserve my meat when I die.

What are the top three qualities you like about your current boyfriend/husband? I’m sure scared or passive will not be the top of the list for them.

Again with the false dichotomy – mature adult male is an option. You don’t have to pick between Conan the Barbarian or Snarf.

Sometimes I read deserted island other times it’s desert island. Which was the original? Does anyone know?

The original was a dessert island.

Alright… I fucked up from the beginning… I tried to use logic on a women’s page.

Tried being the operative word. Try harder next time. The trick is to make the conclusions flow from the premises without the use of faulty inferences or falsehoods.

In other news, I’m installing win7 in a VM and if this works then I’m doing it again, crashing it before the first restart and rewriting the MBR by hand. In non-geek, I’m risking breaking my mac right good. This is Plan G, for Good Gods Really Argenti?

I’d apologise for exposing you to TFN, but I get the feeling that fiddling around in the boot sector is fun to you? Yer a better geek than I! o_o
I’m installing Baldurs Gate and looking for Icewind Dale… Ok, you win the geek olympics this time.

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

Aww, boo. Missed the exit again. 🙁

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
11 years ago

If women never submitted to a man then all sex would be considered rape.

Dude, if all the sex you’ve had involved women submitting to your will rather than meeting you enthusiastically as an equal, your sex life is really sad. Also, you might be a rapist.

We are just animals, like the lion or wolf.

We’re also animals, just liek the tapeworm and the jellyfish, but I never see you evo-psych idiots comparing us to them. for some reason you only ever mention the animals who you think will support your assertions/fantasies.

Steven hawkins had the strength to conquer the physics world, despite being physically handicapped

That’s cool. I be he an legendary physicist and wheelchair user Stephen Hawking would have a lot to talk about.

If you were stranded on an deserted island with a choice of only one partner for the rest of your life would you choose the redneck hunter/survivor or the sensitive doctor?

Fuck your classism.

You’re all welcome to my dungeon anytime…

Gross.

Not the kink, which I’m normally into, but the unsolicited invitation to sex from a complete stranger. Fucking boundaries, how do they work?

Alright… I fucked up from the beginning… I tried to use logic on a women’s page.

When did you use logic?

Also, I’m initiating the Pelltdown Clock.

And this is the reason that society is shit

hey no offence… it’s just the internet

Might wanna take your own advice there, buddy.

On the internet I’m scum, no one has seen anything but their own view.

Yeah, you’re totally the first person to say any of this. Nothing tired or boring or debunked a million times here at all…

On the internet back in 1500′s a troll would have been a black man looking for freedom. The majority (white) would have called troll and said fuck off…

Yeah, the evo-psych “alpha male” wanting to make women submit is really the enslaved black person of our age.

Change your mind cos a troll doesn’t deliberately be a troll.

Yes they do. That’s literally the definition of troll. Admittedly, it gets used a bit more broadly here on Manboobz, but in general, yes, a troll is a deliberate shit-stirrer.

And now that I’ve written all that, I see you’ve been banned. I’m sure you’ll be back, and you’re probably still reading this, so whatev, I’ll post it anyway.

sparky
sparky
11 years ago

There was internet in the 1500’s?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

Yesterday’s troll is only called scum when he’s on the internet?

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Athywren — no worries, it was more the motivation to finally fucking do it, I’ve needed to do a clean install for awhile, I was gonna do it when I got the iPad and had to upgrade to 10.6 but I got impatient. I wish I could’ve gotten XP to work, but assuming win7 doesn’t spit on it being, uh, a, uh, not a you know *cough*legal*cough* copy, I’m good to go on the real install.

Once I remember how to work weirdos hat windows that is! (Oh auto correct!)

thebobgoblin
11 years ago

What’s a cock pussy, and why did the troll have more than one? That doesn’t seem fair. If there are cock pussies to be had, he seems like the last sort of person who’d get one, let alone multiples.

Oh, that was a punctuation fail, wasn’t it?

katz
11 years ago

Truly, Argenti, you are daring.

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

Why is that alpha-numeric penis so round on the tip. Did you masturbate with an orange and forget to remove it?

Maybe it’s a massive genital wart?

Leisha Young (@LJY2008)

Men hate women because they need them and despise that fact. They hate that women are their weakness. That’s it really.

Flora
Flora
11 years ago

Ah, but what is ladylike, other then the idea of what society THINKS a woman should be like? It is simply a stereotype. And not all women are stupid. That is like saying all men are stupid, which only some are. SOME. Again steriotyping is at work. Face it- each person is intelligent in their own way and no one is an idiot. Don’t judge women so harshly.

Wilhelm
Wilhelm
10 years ago

Strength that was very nice. I thought like saying you’re the man. But we are both the men. I want to show some damn courage once before I die.

Viscaria
Viscaria
10 years ago

Nothing says courage like necroing a thread to cheer on a misogynistic lulz troll 2 months after they were banned. We are humbled by your bravery.

alternatesteve90
10 years ago

@Flora: Yeah…..:)

And as for you, Wilhelm, I only have one thing to say…..please go trip on some Lego pieces. OK? Scram. Vamoose. Etc.

cloudiah
10 years ago

Wow, this thread has been necroed a lot.

I want to show some damn courage once before I die.

It hasn’t happened yet, but keep trying.

Bina
Bina
10 years ago

“Trolls make you think different”? Um, no. All I’ve ever thought, upon seeing one, was “damn, what a dipshit”. I’ve never yet seen one who could sway me from, y’know, actual logic.

And troll cheerleader, if you’re looking to show some courage for once, get off the fuckin’ internet. Go find a house fire to put out with your pee, or something.

Brooked
Brooked
10 years ago

“What’s to-day, my fine fellow?” said Scrooge.

“To-day?” replied the boy. “Why, Christmas Day.”

“It’s Christmas Day!” said Scrooge to himself. “I haven’t missed it. The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hallo, my fine fellow!”

“Hallo!” returned the boy.

“Do you know the Poulterer’s, in the next street but one, at the corner?” Scrooge inquired.

“I should hope I did,” replied the lad.

“An intelligent boy!” said Scrooge. “A remarkable boy! Do you know that on the internet back in 1500′s a troll would have been a black man looking for freedom. The majority (white) would have called troll and said fuck off…”

“What does this have do with the Poulterer’s?” returned the boy.

“No, no,” said Scrooge, “I am in earnest. I thought like saying you’re the man. But we are both the men. I want to show some damn courage once before I die.”

The now confused, somewhat frightened boy was off like a shot.

He had no further intercourse with Spirits or Western Females, but lived upon the Total Abstinence Principle, ever afterwards; and it was always said of him, that he knew how to keep Misogyny well, if any man alive possessed the knowledge. May that be truly said of us, and all of us! And so, as Tiny Tim observed, suck my cock pussies, Every One!

Anonymous Male
Anonymous Male
10 years ago

This whole thing is fucking garbage, both of you are being whiny shitfaces, shut the fuck up, and get over it, neither of you are right, and are so stupid for acting like it. Wish is fucking MILES off with her assumptions, and the author’s opinion, in response, is so sarcastic and skewed I cannot even begin to try to respect it. I get the part about racism/homophobia/other bigotry, that was justly sarcastic, but the rest of it is just garbage. I don’t know why you MUST complain about the so-called standards of femininity when no one fucking told you that women have to follow a model of what is considered feminine or attractive. You can do whatever the fuck you want, you’re your own fucking person, follow whatever the fuck you want in regards to your life/looks, etc. No one is gonna fucking stop you. But then again, don’t complain if the “alpha males” aren’t attracted to you when you wear strange, maybe abrasive, clothing (maybe just ‘abnormal’) or act so independent it becomes bitchy or anything else. Then again, why, if you so strongly believe in the idea that women should not follow a standard of beauty/what society believes is feminine, are you trying to attractive the “alpha” male, who are the basic epitomes of what society thinks the role model male should be like? Why are you even classifying the males as “alpha” or anything else, if you believe in the concept of femininity being un-corrupted by society? If women shouldn’t have to follow a standard of beauty, then neither should men. Guys with toned bodies,athletic personalities, douchey confidence shouldn’t be considered “hot” or have to deal with said standards. As for Wish’s argument, why the fuck, as a guy, would I want a women to say something like, “ ‘Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.’ ” That comes across a condescending and as if you would know what someone has been through. You’re probably not even right. And also, why in the hell would any guy want someone who is basically useless or never tries to be successful or “challenge” a man’s supposed ego. No, that’s garbage too. No guy that you would want to be with would be like this. Guys, in reality, don’t want just someone who is a basic sex slave.

So, in conclusion, or tl;dr, both arguments are fucking stupid and wrong, and I think that people claim mysogyny or sexism for unjust reasons anyway. (And forgive the rant)

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

Calm down ,dear.

Pro-tip: If you’re going to try and gas-light us, shorter paragraphs instead of a wall of text might help. At least we’d bother to read it, even though it still won’t work. 😉

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

when you wear strange, maybe abrasive, clothing (maybe just ‘abnormal’)

Strange, abrasive “abnormal” clothing? Seriously? Would that be sackcloth or does denim count? You really think we’re all wandering around in “strange” “abrasive” “abnormal” clothing? /facepalm

when you … act so independent it becomes bitchy

So a woman who acts too “independent” is “bitchy”. Independent of what, precisely? Independent of the men on whom she is supposed to be dependent? and being independent = being bitchy? Really? Careful, sweetie, your misogyny is showing.

I think that people claim mysogyny or sexism for unjust reasons anyway.

No, dear, you just don’t think.

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

Then again, why, if you so strongly believe in the idea that women should not follow a standard of beauty/what society believes is feminine, are you trying to attractive the “alpha” male, who are the basic epitomes of what society thinks the role model male should be like?

We’re not.

Why are you even classifying the males as “alpha” or anything else, if you believe in the concept of femininity being un-corrupted by society?

Again, not us doing that.

See the pattern, here?

Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

Excuse me, but can anyone explain what just happened here?

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

@Argenti, a troll felt compelled to puke all over the thread. Who knows why. Overindulging over the holidays, maybe?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

I can honestly say that I’ve never tried to attractive an alpha male, or anyone else. Unless buying clothes for Mr C counts as trying to attractive him? But even then, he was already attractive, the clothes just make him more so.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Is there some kind of end of year thread necro special going on? WTF was THAT word vomit?

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