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On Reddit, a woman explains to other women why men hate them

Wonder Woman: Always alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.
Wonder Woman: Forever alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.

NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.

Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.

Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.

FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:

[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.

Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”

But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.

Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.

[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?

When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.

You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?

But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)

Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?

I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

None of these things are inherently male traits.

Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.

Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Says you.  Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.

And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.

The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.

Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.

The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with. 

In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?

So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”

By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.

At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.

Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.

“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.

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Amused
8 years ago

If only I hadn’t gone to school and got a job with actual responsibility, more men would love me. Maybe.

Rane
Rane
8 years ago

Oh FleetingWish, why didn’t I see it before? You’ve opened my eyes! MRAs don’t hate us, they’re just misunderstood… the same way a malaria bearing mosquito is.

Nope, sorry, I’m not going to give an inch of ground to those slobbering dogs. Na na!

titianblue
titianblue
8 years ago

Don’t forget ladies, the men are always right, just flutter your eyelashes and while admiring everything they do and say.

titianblue
titianblue
8 years ago

Amused
8 years ago

Don’t forget ladies, the men are always right, just flutter your eyelashes and while admiring everything they do and say.

Be careful with fluttering your eyelashes. That could convey the message that your eyelashes are better than his, or that he should care. Therefore, fluttering your eyelashes is misandry.

Darth Conans
Darth Conans
8 years ago

Obviously, this is probably giving the author of the source post too much credit, but I think the point she’s trying to make about homophobia and racism is that the less virulent forms of both are generally caused by not really knowing LGBT people or members of other races. This may or may not be true (and could also be used for utterly unfounded claims about it being up to minorities to befriend bigots), but it is at least conceivable. Befriending a black person probably wouldn’t reform a Klansman, but it might help a person who finds overt racism despicable but feels vaguely uncomfortable around African Americans.

This doesn’t stop the rest of her argument from reading a like a mid-60s anti-feminist taunt, of course.

La Strega
8 years ago

@titianblue

Thank you for giving me my first laugh of the day!!!

La Strega
8 years ago

I challenge her premise that most of these unhappy misogynists have known many women.

Curlyfries
Curlyfries
8 years ago

“Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.”

And men are the only ones who have needs, feelings, wants, and desires? So basically this is just reinforcing the idea that only men (straight, cis, white of course) are people. What does that make the rest of us then?

Fade
8 years ago

I “love” her scarequotes around “hate” and “misogyny”

So here’s a thing: I’m not a very competetive person. If I’m competing with someone, I like to do it with someone who I know won’t make fun of me if I lose or w/e so it’s just fun and games and there aren’t very high stakes. So I get not wanting to compete with people all the time.

But she doesn’t act like some men don’t want to compete with women b/c some men aren’t competetive (The horrors!) she acts like it’s because only men can compete with each other Its like she thinks that men can’t stand to lose to a woman, so women shouldn’t even try to compete with them.

tarnishedsophia
8 years ago

So that’s what I’ve been doing wrong!

If I become a “yes woman” to everything my FwB says…and let him win every videogame we play together…and give up my job that pays 2x what his does…and stop buying him things he likes and stop splitting our dinner/entertainment costs…and never take the initiative during sex…He would be MUCH happier!

Oh, wait. No he wouldn’t.
He loves those things about me, because we are individuals who care about each other and understand that we can have differing opinions while still enjoying being together. Binary gender roles are SO last century…

tarnishedsophia
8 years ago

@Curlyfries

We are obviously llamas.
How could you not know this? 😛

L
L
8 years ago

Man, better not let my husband find out that I am working a higher-profile job than him and have more disposable income, have been rocking a pompadour for the past 2 years, wear men’s/unisex clothes with sports bras most of the time (and a binder sometimes), don’t wear makeup, and oh… especially don’t tell him that I don’t identify as a woman either. He might divorce me!

And he -definitely- hasn’t ever said he’s found me to be one of the best influences in his life and that I’m inspiring to him. That would mean he sees me as a human being or something dumb like that.

Karak
Karak
8 years ago

But…why do I care? She has this giant screed on how to allegedly make myself more “likable” but I have no desire to be liked, and I think we’ve established that needing everyone to like you all the time is a personality flaw.

Keep hating me because I refuse to pretend to be stupid so you can feel superior, weirdos.

Aaliyah
Aaliyah
8 years ago

“What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”

Nothing, but misogynistic men can easily see the worth of womankind by realizing that they’re fully human.

I guess that’s a lot to ask, though.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Yeah, let’s feel bad for the people who persistently dehumanize, objectify, and insult us with misogyny.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Okay, there are plenty of men that want a woman who will defer to them, wait on them hand and foot, smile all the time, and use a soft voice like Michelle Duggar. Luckily there are also lots of straight men that don’t want to have a relationship with a woman who is a doormat. If anyone is bashing men here, it’s anti feminist women.

Oh, and I love how anti feminist women think that being a woman gives them a free pass to be a misogynist. Ah yes, go ahead and throw all other women under the bus to win praise from PUA’s on reddit. That’s totally fine because you’re a woman!

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

I bet you anything she is the kind of person to repeat words of wisdom like “Men want respect, and women want love” or “Women need to be told they are loved, while men need to be shown they are loved with sex and food”.

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
8 years ago

And men are the only ones who have needs, feelings, wants, and desires? So basically this is just reinforcing the idea that only men (straight, cis, white of course) are people. What does that make the rest of us then?

DUH, women are not people.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Internalized misogyny ahoy!

Karalora
Karalora
8 years ago

They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

Well, that’s easy. What value do other men provide for them? We’re talking about heterosexual men here, so sex is off the table when dealing with each other, so why do they even do it? If the problem is “women acting just like men,” well…men act just like men, and they don’t seem to have a problem getting along with each other, so what exactly is the problem, again?

Cut the bullshit, FW. The problem with these guys isn’t that they don’t know what women are good for besides sex. It’s that they have already decided that the only thing women are good for is sex (and maid service), and they’re all pissy because women disagree.

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
8 years ago

Also, women’s very real fears of getting murdered, raped, sexually harassed, and abused can just magically disappear if we start acting more like proper chicks. Got it.

Go fuck yourself.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

I bet this woman has every volume of “The Rules.” Barf.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Sign me up for being a llama.

Bob Goblin
Bob Goblin
8 years ago

Wait, there are women who actually want to attract PUAs? Where did I put that Excedrin?

Speaking as a straight cis male, I’m most attracted to successful, competitive women. This might be because I don’t find them threatening. Maybe.

Or perhaps I’m just beta.

Curlyfries
Curlyfries
8 years ago

Llamas! Of course! How could I not see it before?! Now I finally have an answer as to that llama-y smell is.

Curlyfries
Curlyfries
8 years ago

“The problem with these guys isn’t that they don’t know what women are good for besides sex. It’s that they have already decided that the only thing women are good for is sex (and maid service), and they’re all pissy because women disagree.”

THIS.

An Inconvenient Truth
An Inconvenient Truth
8 years ago

there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest.

1) I doubt that “plenty” accurately represents the niche market for high-T, furry-armed manjaws.

2) Replacing “not attracted to” with “intimidated by” is nothing but ego salve. A man doesn’t have to be “intimidated” by a 40-something HR director to prefer the idea of copulating with a 20-something waitress.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

That screed gave me shivers, too, but probably not in the same way :-/

I mean, it’s bad enough when people act like men are justified for hating women because of hypergamy or gold-digging or whatever. If men were really the oppressed party, their hatred might make some sense. But to argue that men are justified in hating women because we don’t kiss their asses enough? To say that we’re denying their feelings by not submitting ot their every whim? I can’t even.

The guy thanking her for caring may be the scariest thing I’ve seen all week. Dude, you are not oppressed by women having lives of their own.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

To say that we’re denying their feelings by not submitting ot their every whim? I can’t even.

I think we’ve used the term ‘feeling of entitlement’ before, but this really captures exactly what it is they feel entitled TO, doesn’t it? A world where all women exist only to please them and submit to their every whim.

Ugh. I feel like I need a shower now.

Bob Goblin
Bob Goblin
8 years ago
Reply to  emilygoddess

Dude, you are not oppressed by women having lives of their own.

This. So much this.

Dudes, women owe you nothing other than basic human decency. If you feel oppressed or threatened by women being free and full human beings, the problem is all with you. You’re the asshole.

wordsp1nner
8 years ago

I think I speak for a large proportion of women when I say that if all men expected a submissive, non-competitive, virginal, stay-at-home (or at least not involved in a career she loves), hyperfeminine “help-meet” to marry then I’d be perfectly happy to stay single my entire life. Because I’m not like that, and having a husband isn’t worth the cost of making myself like that.

Luckily for us, that isn’t the case, and there are plenty of men who aren’t looking for that. (I do feel sorry for people who fit the sexist’s ideas of a ‘perfect wife’ because I think they’d be terrible husbands, even for someone who fit their ideal.)

Karalora
Karalora
8 years ago

Continuing what I said earlier, I think what bothers me the most about screeds like this is that the question “Why should men bother with women if women are just like men?” only makes sense if you don’t wonder why men bother with each other. And the only reason you would ask the one and not the other is if it goes without saying that women are inferior to men and need some kind of uniquely valuable feminine add-on to be worth anyone’s time.

That said add-on always turns out to “subvert your needs to his all the time” is just bonus squick.

Falconer
8 years ago

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

(I do feel sorry for people who fit the sexist’s ideas of a ‘perfect wife’ because I think they’d be terrible husbands, even for someone who fit their ideal.)

I agree 100%. I would say this as “they’d be terrible husbands, especially for someone who fit their ideal”.

No matter how submissive or compliant a woman is, she could never please a man like that. Many of the men who want to own women are also abusers, and abusers keep changing the rules on what their victims need to do to please them.

Grumpycatisagirl
Grumpycatisagirl
8 years ago

I love the rest of that “thank you for caring” dude’s comment, especially that he made an edit to “clarify”:

“This is so important in this day and age, we’re attracted to our opposite. We want feminine women. Not competing women who will just annoy us. We’re supposed to be the strong and aggressive ones, not you (not saying that women shouldn’t be independent as well as emotionally and psychologically strong). We are supposed to complement each other, to create a perfect whole if you will.

Edit: Note in parentheses to the nitpickers.”

So thanks to the edit, nitpickers can be reassured that just because the dude doesn’t think women should be strong, it doesn’t mean he thinks women shouldn’t be strong.

No. Because no.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

We’re supposed to be the strong and aggressive ones

Just what Bud is saying on the other thread. Male is strong, male is good, male is awesome. Stop infringing on our stuff!! Waaaaah!

Owly really was dealing with straight-up projection…

Amused
8 years ago

We’re supposed to be the strong and aggressive ones, not you (not saying that women shouldn’t be independent as well as emotionally and psychologically strong).

Translation: ” I want women to defer to and obey me, to hang onto my every word, to agree with me on everything and always play to be stupider/more ignorant than me on every subject and in every aspect of life.. At the same time, I don’t want them to be so psychologically and emotionally weak, that it becomes a burden to me. Nor do I want them to be so ignorant and stupid that I will, godforbid, have to babysit them. In other words, I want the benefits of being “strong and aggressive”, but not the burdens.”

Maude LL
8 years ago

I’m puzzled by the “men hate women” trope. Of course misogyny is very real and casual sexism is everywhere, but wtf men hate women?
I must be surrounding myself with betas who are really good actors because it really seems to me that decent, non-hateful guys exist. Actually, I’m still trying to explain to my guy friends what an MRA is, and they don’t still don’t understand the concept.

bookdragonette
bookdragonette
8 years ago

@tarnishedsophia

So that’s what I’ve been doing wrong!

If I become a “yes woman” to everything my FwB says…and let him win every videogame we play together…and give up my job that pays 2x what his does…and stop buying him things he likes and stop splitting our dinner/entertainment costs…and never take the initiative during sex…He would be MUCH happier!

Nah, you’d just be a hypergamous golddigger then.

Yeah, I’ll change myself for my partner. Never mind that he doesn’t want me to change. He’s a man, of course he does. Eurgh.

Karalora
Karalora
8 years ago

That’s another thing. They arrange the culture so that “masculine” traits (strength! aggression! careerism! stoicism!) are considered “better” than their “feminine” opposites, and then they get all upset when women aren’t content to be weak and diffident and housebound and emotional.

boumbette
boumbette
8 years ago

@karalora
Yes, but if you’re not weak and ladylike, you won’t be loved by an asshole! Think of the consequences!

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

Ya know, even if the context of her post was relationships in dating, she doesn’t actually talk about relationships at all. It seems like she’s talking about all men are fed up with all women and all women need to figure out how they can provide for all men.

And GAH at those questions. It’s just playing into the entitlement complex of the mysogynists, and it’s asking what all women are obligated to do for all men.

La Strega
8 years ago

“We’re attracted to our opposite…We are supposed to complement each other, to create a perfect whole if you will.”

NO NO NO. I am not someone’s missing “half.” I don’t want to be with someone who is “incomplete” without me. And most attractions are based on commonalities — at least in my experience and observations of relationships around me,

Bob Goblin
Bob Goblin
8 years ago
Reply to  La Strega

We’re attracted to our opposite…We are supposed to complement each other, to create a perfect whole if you will.

Since when are men and women “opposites”? Last I checked, we’re members of the same species.

La Strega
8 years ago

And now I’ve got that song from Hedwig, “The Origin of Love,” stuck in my head.

Pretty song, but really the idea behind the lyrics is such crap.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

We are supposed to complement each other, to create a perfect whole if you will.

We were just discussing complimentary roles in the backlash thread with Budmin. Here is how a hetero couple is supposed to fit together to make the whole, according to misogynists of all types.

The man: His needs come first, he calls the shots, he is looked up to for his awesomeness. The downside is he has to be stoic when he actually needs help, and if he doesn’t fit the ideal, other men will bash him.

The woman: She is the helpmeet. She defers to him. She puts his needs first, caters to him, makes him feel strong. She is happy to spend all her time in the kitchen cooking his favorite foods, and pretending she doesn’t have sexual desires of her own because she is too busy worrying about his. The upside is that if she goes back in time and ends up on the Titanic, she has a better chance of getting on a lifeboat.

Hmm, I wonder why MRA’s, PUA’s, and patriarchal leaders, most of whom are men, are so keen on pushing these “complimentary roles”?

Buntzums
Buntzums
8 years ago

Do they have any tips how to avoid Alpha males?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Wait, why are women supposed to care whether or not PUAs see our deep inner worth? Actually, why would we want to go out of our way to attract PUAs at all? Now if there was a forum explaining how to repel them before they make their first approach, that might be useful.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior

Does this mean that Women, the monolith, WANT someone to compete with at home? If so, how can they compete with someone and not be competitive at the same time? Or does this mean that men can turn off their competitiveness but women lack enough maleness to do this? Also, if men are naturally competitive 24/7, won’t they get bored in their relationship if they’re just constantly competing AT someone?

Inquiring minds…. don’t really give a damn, but bored minds want to know!! So many holes, so little bullshit to fill em with!

Livvers
Livvers
8 years ago

“But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.”

You know, when every woman has a problem with you, ever think that YOUR personality is the problem? If you keep getting the same results, maybe you should change what you’re doing instead of expecting an entire gender to bend to your “needs”.

leftwingfox
8 years ago

It’s high time we started treating traditional gender roles as a kink.

“Manly” men, “Wimmenly” women. I hereby acknowledge that this is who you are. That conforming to rigid and prescribed gender formulations is how you get your jollies. I’m very happy that you want to role play “Leave it To Beaver” scenes. Let your freak flag fly!

Get together on your websites of retro bakelite and formica finish, find someone who shares your kink.

Just stop forcing us all into your little fetish, ok?

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