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On Reddit, a woman explains to other women why men hate them

Wonder Woman: Always alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.
Wonder Woman: Forever alienating decent men with her blatant careerism.

NOTE: I’ve closed comments on this post because it keeps attracting crankish comments from misogynists who agree with the misogynists I quote in the post.

Hey ladies! Have you ever wondered why so many men hate you? Well, you’re in luck, because on Reddit, another lady just like you has an answer. It’s because you suck. No, really. Men hate women because women are terrible. And not very ladylike, to boot.

Let’s join FleetingWish as she explains “Why Do Men “Hate” Us?” in Part 2 of her Who-knows-how-many-parts opus “Attracting Alphas,” which she has helpfully posted in the fPUAs subreddit, a forum apparently devoted to teaching “females” how to more effectively get picked up by alleged Alpha males.

FleetingWish starts off by distinguishing “misogyny” — in scare quotes — from bad things like racism:

[W]e cannot to fall into the common trap of lumping “misogynist” in the same category of “racist” and “homophobic”. The reason is they occur for entirely different reasons. Racist and homophobic people occur largely from lack of exposure. It’s easy to have misconceived notions of certain groups of people when you haven’t met any.

Obviously! For who in history were less racist than America’s antebellum slaveowners, white people who lived in close quarters with large numbers of black people and sometimes even fathered children with them via an ancient non-racist practice known as “raping your slaves.”

But this is not the case for women; men have met many, many women in their lives. Any “misogyny” that they may have developed (or lack thereof) has been created by their exposure to women, and those women have only confirmed their biases.

Huh. So if you retain your hate for a group of people even when you have had considerable contact with these people, this means your hate was justified? By this logic, then, slaveowners were justified in their racism, and Nazi concentration camp guards were justified in their antisemitism.

[O]n to the reason men “hate” us. There are countless complaints to be found, but they all seem to lead to the same core. They don’t see what value women can provide for them (outside of sex).

And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?

When I first understood this, I felt disappointed and sad, because I want to feel that my presence makes a difference, and not that 50% of the population would be better off without me.

You didn’t ask: What the fuck is wrong with these guys who think that that the value of women can be reduced to what they provide men sexually?

But I wanted to find the truth behind the anger, so I asked myself two questions; “What are women providing for men in today’s society?” and “What should women be providing them?” (Or alternatively “What is it that women could provide that would make men see their worth?”)

Why would you assume there was “truth behind the anger” rather than, say, a stunted personality and a giant sense of entitlement? Why are women obligated to “provide” anything for men, apart from the basic human decency all people are generally expected to show one another?

I answered my first question by observing the world around me. We have a society where women are encouraged to behave like men. We are encouraged to be competitive, career driven, even to be brash and arrogant in order to get what we want.

None of these things are inherently male traits.

Also, we are told again and again, that not only should men not expect anything of us (not even common decency), but that we should leave any one who places any demands (or requests) on us.

Huh? I think Ms. Wish may be having imaginary conversations with those old villains the Straw Feminists.

The trouble with the first mentality is by acting like men, we run the risk of being second place to actual men. If a man wants to have a relationship of some kind with someone who behaves masculine, why would he seek a woman? … If he wants to seek out a woman, it’s because he’s seeking someone who behaves like a woman, and personifies feminine behavior.

Says you.  Even setting aside all those who fall outside of, or otherwise confound, the traditional gender binary, there are plenty of straight cis men who have no problem with straight cis women whom you’d no doubt define as excessively “masculine.” Indeed, recent research suggests that men aren’t as intimidated by successful, high-earning women as the old stereotypes suggest. A recent report from the Brookings Institution noted that marriage rates amongst the top-earning women have been rising while those of lower lower-earning women have declined.

And why do you even care if other women act in a way that you’ve defined as “masculine?” If you want to act in a way you think is appropriately “feminine,” it’s your life, go for it. Let other people define “masculinity” and “femininity,” and their relationships with these concepts, how they want.

The trouble with the second mentality is that by not taking into consideration what men want from us, it takes away our ability to listen to their needs. Because men have needs, they have feelings, they have wants, and they have desires. And those needs are important, they are important for their basic happiness and fulfillment in life.

Uh, yeah. Women have needs, too. I’m pretty sure most successful long-term relationships are based on fulfilling both partners’ needs, not on forcing one partner into a “feminine” mold so as not to challenge the male ego.

The solution to both of these is actually the same. Be feminine. That’s what men are desperately craving from us. … Men don’t want a woman that they have to compete with, they compete with people all day long, at the end of the day they want someone who they don’t have to compete with. 

In other words, if you’re better than him at Halo 4, go ahead and let him win. These sorts of dudes tend to have a bit of a temper.

The thing is, those men who “hate” us, they don’t really hate us, they desperately want to be able to love us. But they have been unable to with every, single, woman they have come across. And they’ve become so hurt, that they don’t know what else to do.

Uh, no, I’m pretty sure a lot of these guys really DO hate you. If you don’t believe me, I’ve got roughly 1200 posts in the Man Boobz archive that might provide some further illumination on this point — although, admittedly, some of the posts are about kitties, not misogyny. So maybe 1000 posts?

So, my challenge to anyone reading this is if you see these men on reddit, try to empathize where they are coming from. Instead of being angry at them, be understanding of them. Instead of defending yourself, defend them. Instead of telling them “you’re not like that”, show them you aren’t like that. Respond to these posts with something to the effect of “Wow, I’m really sorry that women you’ve come across have treated you so bad, I wish there was something I could do to heal that hurt you’re feeling.”

“I’m so, so sorry you think I’m a worthless bitch.”

By responding like this, you accomplish so many things. First is you are validating their concerns, second you empathize with their feelings, and third you show them that there are women who care (demonstrating to them that they might be wrong after all). You will see that if you do this, these men’s hearts will melt so fast for the opportunity to believe that there are women who care.

At least until they disagree with you about something, at which point you can expect all the old misogyny to erupt again, this time aimed directly at you.

Naturally, all the guys who for some reason were reading a subreddit devoted to the “self-improvement of women” thought that Ms. Wish’s advice to her fellow not-fellows sounded a-ok with them.

“As a male, this is spot on,” wrote one. “This actually made me get shivers. Thank you for existing. Thank you for caring.

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weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

I’d love to see a movie where a red piller type somehow acquires a time machine and travels through history Bill and Ted/Doctor Who style. He’ll be horrified to find out that women in all times and places were human beings with flaws in their appearances and personalities and opinions of their own. Just like the horrible women of today.

There’s a reason that men of every generation have complained about how the women of the day are too spoiled and unladylike and would make bad wives. The problem isn’t the women. The problem is the misogyny. We can’t win with misogynists now. We couldn’t then either.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
4 years ago

Exactly, WWTH. They act like they’re living in some uniquely terrible time, facing burdens that no other people have ever faced.

Men throughout history have complained about how unsuitable the women of their generation were. In the 1940s and 50s, it was women wearing blue jeans and men’s shirts, bleached hair, “war paint” makeup, the decline of the “parlor date”, having to pay for dinner on a meager GI bill income, women who put up the convertible top so their hair wouldn’t get messed up. In the 1890s it was “frivolity”, lack of moral eanestness, lack of respect for church and the aged, consorting on the street with men of questionable reputation, dressing in conspicuous colors, and so on.

Women were never the perfect, demure, white-gloved housewives from the Dick and Jane reader that Redpillers fantasize about. Unless they were upper class, most of the time pre-20th century women were tired, careworn, weatherbeaten, and callused from working (both indoors and out) and childbearing. All this pearl-clutching about “modern women” is just an excuse. No matter what era they were born in, these guys would have had the same issues with women.

I’m really thankful we live in an era when expectations have risen. Misogynists are no longer able to hide behind social customs and marriage traditions that accommodate their abusive, dehumanizing views of women. Which is really what they’re complaining about – “In the 1870s, I coulda been a lazy drunken asshole and still gotten a wife! So why can’t I get one now? Unfairrr!”

brooked
brooked
4 years ago

In the words of FleetingWish

Yeah, no.

Eric
Eric
4 years ago

@Buttercup Q. Skullpants

Yes, how dare women go to the beach with their friends! I can’t think of anything more selfish!

…oh wait, yes I can. People who judge women negatively for not wanting the things they think all women should want. That’s incredibly selfish.

That’s not the point. And I do not agree with the guys talking about “traditional women” either. That’s stupid too. The problem that is always overlooked (and this is the REASON this attitude bothers men) is because if a man did this, the women would explode and rant and talk about what a f***ing pig the guy is and EVERYONE would agree. Guys can get ostracized for the stupidest s***. THAT’S what the problem is. And yes. That is UNIQUE for this generation.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

@Eric

That’s not the point. And I do not agree with the guys talking about “traditional women” either. That’s stupid too. The problem that is always overlooked (and this is the REASON this attitude bothers men) is because if a man did this, the women would explode and rant and talk about what a f***ing pig the guy is and EVERYONE would agree. Guys can get ostracized for the stupidest s***. THAT’S what the problem is. And yes. That is UNIQUE for this generation.

You’re making Buttercup Q. Skullpants’ cogent point for her. Here’s what she said:

I’m really thankful we live in an era when expectations have risen. Misogynists are no longer able to hide behind social customs and marriage traditions that accommodate their abusive, dehumanizing views of women. Which is really what they’re complaining about – “In the 1870s, I coulda been a lazy drunken asshole and still gotten a wife! So why can’t I get one now? Unfairrr!”

Women have slightly more power now. Some of us make enough money that we can–if we want to or if we must–support ourselves and possibly our children on our own. So we don’t necessarily accept a man’s bad behavior.

You say that men can get ostracized for insignificant things. The evidence that we see every day–from PUAs (who still at least allegedly can find women to have sex with) to MRAs (Paul Elam, despite his despicable, toxic views, lives with a woman who supports him economically) to men that we know–contradicts you. Contrary to your allegation, we are not living in a society that builds up women at the expense of men. A man is president of the USA. Most of the US Congress is male. Women still earn only 79 percent of what men earn. A woman who is raped can expect to have her story disbelieved and the rapist go free (free to rape other women–most rapists are serial rapists).

And building up women at the expense of men is most emphatically not what feminism is about anyway. What Susan B. Anthony, a nineteenth- and early twentieth-century campaigner for women’s right to vote, said still holds true:

Men, their rights and nothing more; women, their rights and nothing less.

weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

The problem that is always overlooked (and this is the REASON this attitude bothers men) is because if a man did this, the women would explode and rant and talk about what a f***ing pig the guy is and EVERYONE would agree.

Oh, really? Because we have a lot of male commenters here and many of them discuss their sex lives and/or love lives here without us all calling them fucking pigs. Perhaps you should spend some time here before making assumptions about how we treat men?

Guys can get ostracized for the stupidest s***. THAT’S what the problem is. And yes. That is UNIQUE for this generation.

Provide examples. What do you think is the stupidest shit? Because I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Eric
Eric
4 years ago

Provide examples. What do you think is the stupidest shit? Because I have no idea what you’re talking about.

I’m talking about stuff that’s been said here actually. Like talking about how a girl quickly got over a relationship. If a guy gets over a relationship quickly everybody’s like “ugh, what a player” and then people don’t like them. If a girl does, everybody is like “what a brave person”.

and how about THIS one?

A woman who is raped can expect to have her story disbelieved and the rapist go free (free to rape other women–most rapists are serial rapists).

If a man gets raped they get laughed at and RIDICULED. I find that to be a problem.

There are other examples but I already don’t expect this to ever actually turn in my favor, because this is a debate. And by design, debates will not change anybody’s opinion, except for the people reading it, not the one’s replying. I don’t enjoy debates and I regret getting involved in this one.

On top of the fact that I don’t actually care all that much about who’s getting mad at who for whatever. I just get worked up because I want my views and problems to be understood as valid, as I’m sure feminists do as well. That’s why I always call these debates and arguments stupid. Because yeah, it’s a problem if a true story is disbelieved on either side, regardless of feminism or equality or rights.

Zac
Zac
4 years ago

“And how exactly is this the fault of the women, rather than a reflection of the rather limited imagination of the men in question?”

Says it all doesn’t it? How dare men expect anything but pussy… If you have to imagine “value” then it isn’t there….

TheRealTruth
TheRealTruth
4 years ago

It is really true that Most Not All really suck nowadays.

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