When I posted about WF Price’s viciously transphobic Mothers’ Day post on The Spearhead yesterday, the Spearhead commentariat had not yet weighed in on his post. Well, now they have, and so appallingly that I felt a second post was in order. Here are some of the, er, highlights of the discussion.
Again, a TRIGGER WARNING applies; if anything, these comments are worse than Price’s original post. This hasn’t made them unpopular at The Spearhead; quite the contrary: all the comments quoted below were well received by Spearhead readers, receiving multiple upvotes. A couple of them were even rated “Well-loved.”
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Alcestis Eshtemoa compares trans women, unfavorably, to eunuchs:
Transexuals/Transgenders are part of the LGBTQPPI freak show. Transexual “women” are de-facto mutilated or castrated men, on a much lower level than eunuchs even. Sure a couple of people may be born “inter-sexed” but most (in general) are not born or made that way. There are two sexes and they are complementary.
Instead it’s the delusional cosplay “I’m a woman in a man’s body” (sure and I’m really Napoleon reincarnated or Marilyn Monroe in a hideous, ill-mannered woman’s body). It’s a form of narcissism, the worse kind even, because these people don’t play their parts well. Instead the solipsism is projected elsewhere.
El Bastardo seems to think that feminists are all as transphobic as he is:
I can’t wait for all the liars, whom calling themselves feminists, have to face this genius who cut his own junk off. As soon as he says they are “equal” in motherhood, they are going to have to contain their laughter and scorn. A “Saaaayyy whaaaaattt?” moment. Followed by “Oh, HELL NAH!”
I actually feel for this individual, though the “suffering” is self inflicted. He, or perhaps she or it, has now set himself and his family up for years of delicious pain for his moronic self indulgence.
Truly, the feminists who raised him, for that is the evil and solipsistic individuals his parents (or at least his mother and wife) had to have been. They destroyed who he was, and cheered him on as he jumped into an abyss for which there is no return.
Now his sons have endured a wound they may never be able to articulate, but incubate with pain and confusion their whole lives. For if their father, now having turned and claimed to being a woman, hated his masculinity in such a fashion; what are they left to think?
Keyster also manages to pull off the neat trick of attacking transphobic feminists — well, he assumes all feminists are transphobic — in a comment that is itself transphobic, not to mention massively misogynistic:
Feminists hate transexuals because they “mock” womanhood; pretend to be women, when actually the massive doses of estrogen is what reveals the classic female behavior that sometimes annoys and frustrates men so much.
Also more often than not transexuals abhor masculinity so much that they actually consider themselves lesbians. And lesbians don’t much like (Male to Female) transexuals either. They do seem to do better once this “internal conflict” is resolved, but then create a whole new reality of confusion and complexities around them.
Geographybeefinalisthimself decides to make the issue all about, well, me:
I feel so sorry for this tranny’s sons.
I wonder if Manboobz will consider my pity for this tranny’s sons to be “misogyny.” I think his morbidly obese body will explode just thinking about how to react.
I’d call that transphobia, actually, Mr. geographybeefinalist. I’m not quite sure why you thought I would explode. It’s not exactly shocking to discover that misogynists are bigoted in other ways as well. On The Spearhead multiple bigotry seems to be the default state.
Towgunner delivered up a massive wall-o-text, from which I have extracted the following. (Paragraph breaks added.)
A simple agenda item for the MRA … is to encourage the truth, specifically, men and women are different and there is nothing wrong with that. ….
The reason why we unfortunately here about this is because it fits the feminists narrative and false idea that men and women are interchangeable etc. transsexuals are an important component to that argument because he was once a he now hes a she…look at that kids, as easy as pie. But its not, hormone treatment and multiple evasive surgeries are not some simple “switch” …
Methinks, the whole “I’m a women in a man’s body” meme is a sick distraction from the real truth, which is “No sir or ma’am, the truth is you’re not happy with yourself and the cards you were dealt and you’ve never came to terms with that! ….
The idea of “I’m a man in a women’s body” should be met with, “hey pal, I’d like to be a lot of things myself too, eating ice cream every night and having a full head of hair and washboard abs…but guess what, it’s not the case….deal. This is what happens when emotion trumps reason. psycology today is a joke, the proper treatment is a kick in the pants not some soft spoken, drug dealer who’s likely just as messed up as their patients are.
Brigadon responded to one commenter who challenged the Spearhead regulars on their homophobia (and got massively downvoted for doing so), accusing the commenter of using “shaming language” against those who rightfully resist “homophilia.” Then he called gay men “fags;” compared homosexuality to pedophilia, bestiality, and cannibalism; and suggested that trans women deserve to be ridiculed.
There is a vast difference between being homophobic and having a legitimate understanding of the deleterious effects homophilia has on society.
If you are not into molesting children, are you pedophobic?
If you are not into fucking housepets, are you beastophobic?
Why in the hell is it considered a ‘phobia’ to be disgusted and sickened by something which, in the end, is an incredibly unhealthy habit from both a species and societal standpoint? …Why should we accept cannibalism? why should we accept pederastery? why should we accept homosexuality? why should we accept beastiality? how does that strengthen us as a culture? what does it ADD to the human experience, and what does it take away?
Nice attempt at shaming language, though. technically ‘homophobia’= “fear of those like one’s self”. completely incorrect usage of the word.
Unfortunately, though, fags are afraid to use the real word…
Edinakusesiphobia- fear of sodomy.
Frankly, all things concerned, I consider a fear of getting sodomized to be a very real worry, as opposed to a ‘phobia’. Especially considering that nearly six times as many men in the US get raped as women, and nearly a hundred times as many men get FORCEFULLY raped (sodomized) as women.And, to be completely honest, why should we NOT ridicule men that lop their penises off in order to be failures as both males and females.
In case you’re wondering, this was one of the comments that was rated “Well-loved” by the Spearhead regulars.
There is plenty more awfulness to be found elsewhere in the thread at The Spearhead, as well as some comments that aren’t quite as bad, if you have the stomach to wade through the rest of it to find them.
I don’t understand the desire to have babies, myself, but I don’t go around yelling at parents wheeling strollers down the street saying “ooh you sick filthy baby-havers, you know that thing came out of her body and it was attached with some gross flesh cord you people are sick.”
Well, ok, I’ve done that a couple of times but I’ve found that people don’t like that.
Eh, I can think of situations in which therapy might actually be the best solution. That doesn’t mean that you don’t need to see a doctor to check for possible health issues first/too, though. My only real issue with the “talk it out in therapy” suggestion is that Farrell is priming men to have unreasonable expectations of their partners, and if they walk in there with the idea that the solution is for the therapist to help them convince their wife to do whatever they want, that’s not going to turn out well.
@ Dvarg
Exactly. I don’t need to really get, on a deep emotional, what it feels like to be trans in order not to be a jerk to people who are trans. And the refusal to adopt the pronouns you’re asked to thing is just ridiculous. There’s really no good reason to refuse to address people the way they prefer to be addressed unless what they’re asking you to call them is reflective of a power structure they’re trying to impose on you (ie. “call me sir/master/your royal magnificence” would not be a thing people should accept just because someone asks them to, whereas “call me Susan/she” is a reasonable request that there’s no good reason not to honor).
@Dvärghundspossen
Wish I’d thought of that reply when trying to explain to a friend why it probably wouldn’t be a great idea to bombard a trans friend they might hypothetically gain with questions.
CassandraSays, are you still around? I need your wisdom on a few issues.
Oop, looks like it! Have you ever lived in Dubai? My parents might be moving there very soon, possibly leaving me unsupported/otherwise in limbo here, and I don’t know, I just need someone to at least tell me some things about leaving in pseudo-theocratic Arab states so I feel like I can know something.
Cassandra, I think you’re right, in a non-Farrell context, but with Farrell, the issues he thinks aren’t being addressed are invariably going to be that men are the “disposable sex” or any number of other MRA bullshit notions. Only pages earlier he’d made a big deal about how unfair it was to criticize men for fogetting to leave toilet seats down for women. The whole chapter is about how very hard it is for men to express their feelings about anything because of various bullshit reasons he’s made up.
@ David
Yep, I agree. That’s why he annoys me so much. He’s one of the few people talking about some of these issues, and the way he talks about them poisons the well, making it harder to talk about the issues in a non-batshit way in the future.
@ lowquacks
I’m here but going to bed soon. What’s up?
@David: Yeah, babies is another good example for me. I don’t feel like having babies. I don’t really know what that feeling’s like. But I still support, for instance, that IVF is publicly funded, because I know that having babies is super duper important to many other people. If something is super duper important to many people (and, well, doesn’t harm or disrespect anyone else) this is a good reason to support it, regardless of whether I, personally, really “get” it.
Just saw the last comment. Dubai isn’t going to be that much of an issue for a middle-aged couple who don’t look Arab. It’s not like Saudi, it’s way more relaxed, at least for ex-pats. If you were to stay with them while they’re there I’d want to give you a few warnings about dating, but your parents will probably be fine.
Going to bed soon, but if you can think of specific things you’re worried about I’ll be around again at some point tomorrow.
Yeah, was just thinking I should’ve thought a bit beforehand. Thanks, CassandraSays.
“ie. “call me sir/master/your royal magnificence” would not be a thing people should accept just because someone asks them to,”
Unless the someone is a cat, of course. Though they wouldn’t ask.
I too cannot understand why pronoun usage is such an imposition. For those following along at home, here’s why:
1. Say you saw someone who was really, truly androgynous in appearance, such that you had no idea whether they were male or female. Even when they speak to you, their voice does not betray it. So you finally ask “Sorry if this is a weird question, but are you a he or a she?” The person says “It’s okay, I get that all the time–I’m a she.” You wouldn’t have any problems referring to her as such, right?
2. Same scenario as above, except that on the balance of things, the person seems slightly more like a guy to you. So based on that assumption, you speak to her as though she were a guy and she corrects you. Still no problem, right? You miscalculated based on her appearance.
3. So why is it any different if a person who, to you, really seems like a guy identifies as a woman and asks to be referred to as she?
“You don’t have to understand people, it’s enough to respect them”.
I was saying much the same to someone in e-mail, as I was explaining that I don’t, “understand” trans (in the same way I don’t understand quantum mechanics… it works, it’s true, it’s beyond my ken; sort of like people who can stand to eat mangoes).
But it doesn’t matter. I know it’s a real thing, and treating them as they want to be treated is the decent thing to do. It doesn’t harm me, and it’s good for them.
Cassandra hit it on the head. This is about how non-binary people undermine their worldview. They are so insecure in how they see the world, and people, that anyone being allowed to be outside the box destroys it.
I don’t understand that either.
Dammit “I have the strangest boner” in reply to awesome should NOT be a serious argument! *wookie noises, smashes shit*
@Karalora: But truly transphobic people are often immediately pissed off on meeting someone androgynous-looking. They think it’s mandatory for everyone to clearly announce what their genitals look like. If you have a very androgynous face and body it’s NOT okay to have some kind of unisex hairdo and unisex clothes; in this case, you’re obligated to put on a skirt, long hair and makeup if you have a vagina or grow a beard if you’re a man.
Because the NARRATIVE.
Because this makes them HEROES.
Against POWERFUL ENEMIES.
Facing down OVERWHELMING ODDS.
This is why people go full-bore paranoiac. Fluoride is mind control! The government is out to get me–they already killed JFK, caused 911, and killed every person who ever died!!!
Because if I’m living in my paranoid fantasy, I am obviously so amazingly important–central to this fantasy is how many OTHER PEOPLE are fixated on me–that the government only hasn’t killed me because they don’t think they can get away with it.
It comes back to ego, and narcissism. (it alwasy does with the MRM)
If a man has erectile dysfunction, and his doctor says it is okay for him, he could also use “the little blue pill”. I am not a doctor, so I don’t know what kinds of erectile dysfunction can be treated with medication, though.
I could only imagine a Warren Farrell approved couples therapy session.
Therapist looks at the man: So you have trouble getting or maintaining erections? Is it because you feel disposable due to the Titanic disaster?
Husband: Um, the Titanic? What does that have to do with my penis?
Therapist looks to the woman: I bet you nag him all the time. Do you bother him when he watches football? Have you tried wearing lingerie while cooking him a pot roast?
Wife: Yeah, I’m out of here. Catch you jerks later.
re: MRA transphobia
The MRA’s are reactionaries about almost everything, so it’s no surprise they are transphobic. Maybe it’s because they want everyone to fit into two neat little categories of awesome, heroic men who deserve all the power and glory, and inferior women who need to grovel in front of men in penance for being nagging sluts. Where do non binaries fit into such a simplistic worldview?
I think you’re overanalyzing the reasons for MRA transphobia. Judging by how they want to tear down everyone less privileged than they are, I think the hate comes first and then they make up some excuse.
(First post woo)
@Dvärghundspossen
True. My post is meant to address a more mild version of transphobia–where people aren’t opposed to androgyny in principle and may not have a problem with the concept of transitioning, but balk at the prospect of using the pronouns they associate with one gender to refer to someone who looks to them not to be that gender. (That is a mess of a sentence. I hope it’s readable.)
Not MRAs, in other words.
This is really true. I used to sport a shaved head and tended to dress in men’s pants and boots. I didn’t even look particularly androgynous though, or at least I didn’t think so–I wore tight enough tops that you could see my curves which are quite obviously feminine, although I did/do have broad shoulders and muscular arms from working out. I got a so much gender policing, it was ridiculous. Some of it was because I was read as a lesbian, but most of it was because I was “trying to look like a boy” or something like that. Which I wasn’t, but it didn’t matter to the type of people who would say things like that.
Honestly that experience was probably my first feminist awakening. I just shaved my head because I was a little punk kid and thought it would be fun (it was literally an impulse decision while drinking at a party one night, but I loved it so much I wore it for a few years), but it really opened my eyes to how invested a lot of people are in gender roles and homophobia.
I’m obviously not comparing my experience to what trans* people have to deal with, just showing that even if you are cis it doesn’t take much to piss off people who think Men are supposed to be This Way and Women are supposed to be That Way and anyone who falls outside those rigid boundaries is Wrong.
[Premature delurking, hence no kitty avatar yet]
Hurray, a wordsmith-in-training! Reminds me of the hilarious Usenet homophobe that insisted “idiogenogamosis” (later “idioanthropinogenogamosis”) was the correct and only term for same-sex acts.
Howard Bannister The government […] killed every person who ever died!!!
TBH, a suspiciously high number of people are dead, that MUST mean something!
Yellaine — it was the plague, spread by plague rats, all my fault sorry! (Well, my and the rest of Emilie Autumn’s
plague ratsfans)Pecunium — but mango juice is awesomeness!!
BritterSweet — so no rogue Rs club, darn.
The illusion these men are under is that by enforcing gender stereotypes they themselves will become super-masculine. We don’t need gender police.