It’s Question Time again. I’ve been reading through Susan Faludi’s Backlash and her more recent book on men, Stiffed, as well as some of the discussion surrounding Hanna Rosin’s The End of Men and Kay Hymowitz’ Manning Up. Faludi, writing in 1991, obviously saw the 80s as a time of antifeminist backlash.
My question is how you would characterize the years since she wrote her book. A continuation of that backlash? A time of feminist resurgence, from the Riot Grrls up to Rosin’s predicted End of Men? A mixed period of progress and regression?
I’m wondering both what your general assessment of the situation is, and also what specific evidence you have — either hard data or personal experience — that underlies your overall view. This could be anything from data on employment segregation or the prevalence of rape to your sense of how media representations of women and men have or haven’t changed, or even how people you know have changed the ways they talk about gender. What do you think are the significant data points to look at?
The question isn’t just what has changed for women but what has changed for men as well — with my underlying question being: what if anything in the real world has changed that might be making the angry men we talk about here so angry? I think we can agree that most of their own explanations are bullshit, but could there be a grain of truth to any of them? Or something that they don’t see that’s far more compelling?
In the interest of spurring discussion and providing some data to work with, here are a bunch of articles responding to (or at least vaguely related to the issues raised in) Rosin’s End of Men, including a link to her original Atlantic article. In addition, here are some posts by sociologist Philip Cohen challenging many of Rosin’s claims, as well as more general posts of his on gender inequality. (Feel free to completely ignore any or all of these; I just found them useful resources.)
It worked! *WOOHOO*!
Is there a chart of HTML stuff I can do to do other things, like bold-type, italics, editing, etc.?
@bahumbgi
“As someone who has worked with nurses, teachers, social workers, psychologists, social work aides, counselors in detox units — dudes are not discriminated against from entering these fields.”
I concur. I’ve worked in female dominated professions (ESL teaching, librarianship) and the relatively few men who enter, far from being discriminated against, rise to the top like cream. In my experience (seventies, eighties) guys in those professions tended to be seen as “exceptional” and “leadership material” and the women, who were the majority, for reasons I still don’t completely understand, often conceded them authority disproportionate to their experience or performance.
Ugh, sometimes I feel like such a tiresome old crone (“Back in MY day…”) Just take it for granted that everything I say or think is rooted in the experience of having been dealing with sexism for almost sixty years. I know a lot of stuff has changed, but maybe my brain is getting too brittle to see it.
well, i have not dealt with it for that long, but it still seems pretty freaking awful. i had to quit my first two jobs as a teenager because i was sexually harassed by the bosses.
First, a chart of HTML? Not per se, but I do have one I typed out since this question comes up often enough:
<i>italics</i> or <em>emphasis</em> (the later plays nice with screen readers, afaik the former does not)
<b>bold</b> or <strong>strong</strong> (ditto)
<del>
delete</del>Links go like this: <a href=”http://manboobz.com/2013/03/31/easter-on-the-spearhead-i-hope-that-our-own-errant-women-can-follow-mary-magdalenes-example/comment-page-6/#comment-280044″>this is where you asked about code</a> — or just paste the link, it isn’t pretty, but it’s functional.
Embedding is picky, use the http:// code, not https:// and put it on it’s own line. I skip a line to be sure, and it doesn’t seem to post multiple videos without a blank line between them. Eg:
Video 1
Video 2
Blockquotes, despite the monster, are fairly simple:
<blockquote>
</blockquote>
Second, as one of Pecunium’s Royal Assassins I must attest that the idea of taking on MRAs on their own turf is intimidating, at best. I doubt I have the wherewithal for that level of insulting vitriol. (I do confess that that glossary troll was a bit fun, invented Spot That Fallacy!! and Victorian time traveller because of him)
Bee — at least it’s a small sample size and thus could just be that they’re particularly disinclined to believe victims.
“If I search on Google it is very hard for me to tell whether a particular link is an abortion provider or a pro-life centre trying to stop me going to the correct place.”
Yeah my mother came home from church with a baby bottle to be filled with spare change for one of the later places. After discovering she thinks the morning after pill “prevents a life” and dropping it because Mother’s Day, she said she wasn’t surprised that I wasn’t going to help them.
But argh! So. Much. Fail.
…and now my father is yelling they he needs help. Since he called me specially, he must’ve broken windows, again. I gave up on windows when XP was phased out, what the bloody fuck makes him think I know how to fix win7?!
Hello and welcome, Julie. I’m a relatively new (and lately, sporadic) commenter myself and I know how daunting it can seem. One really good piece of advice I can offer is not to take it personally when people around here call you out on sloppy thinking. MRAs are just the adversary, it is slipshod and sloppy thinking that is the enemy.
There are a lot of smart folk here who’ve done some serious time thinking and studying about the many issues facing feminists of all stripes and persuasions, and any mistake you make can be painful, but it can also be illuminating. So try your best (I know this is difficult, but it’s really the only way to do it) to use it as a learning experience. The biggest thing you can do to earn trust is to own up without drama or histrionics when you’ve gotten caught out.
And never be afraid to ask a question instead of just making an assertion that you can’t back up with research and/or experience. An honest and earnest question will usually get you plenty of suggestions for reading and educating yourself on an issue, whereas making a boneheaded assertion (and we are all capable of them) will get people pushing back against it, not necessarily against you (though our trolls have certain rhetorical ‘tics’ that you accidentally fell into, thus setting off the trolldar).
And on the topic more directly, I push back hard against any “why not some other name than ‘feminism’?” nonsense (and I do think it is nonsense), mostly because I refuse to allow someone who is fundamentally hostile to the work of achieving a more just and egalitarian society to set the terms of the discussion (which is what so many anti-feminists and MRAs try to do – does anyone remember the screen name of Mr. “if you can’t refute this (steaming pile of nonsense), then just admit that we agree!” as a case in point for Julie?). Feminism has a long and established history of working on the part of the ‘abject other’ whether in straight gender terms or along color/ethnic/queer/trans/and other lines. I identify with the term feminism because I identify with the many people who have worked for equality and against normative identity pressures under its banner. Frankly, if someone believes in equality of opportunity regardless of identity, but isn’t comfortable with the ‘feminist’ label because of the mis-characterizations put forward by those who are fundamentally anti-egalitarian in their intentions, that’s their problem (and their need to educate themselves) not mine.
So, in addition to your welcome package, have an icepack to put on your lumps (it does hurt to take a thumping, but it provides a powerful disincentive, yes?) and stick around a while.
Thank you, Argenti Aertheri. That’s a great help. Perhaps the system I use with DeviantArt might work too. I’ll try, now….
bold type
italic
delete
Oops.
deleteunderline
I’ll also save the links you’ve provided.
Thank you, so much, gillyrosebee. You & the others have helped me so much.
As for Fibinachi & kirbywarp’s ideas, when a known MRA troll comes here, if I’m present, I’ll give him/her/hir what for!
Well, I’ll be signing-off for now. Thank you everybody! My utterly adorable niece & my equally adorable mom, my sister, are visiting. We’re all together for spaghetti dinner for Mom’s Day. I wish you all a very Happy Mother’s Day as well! See you guys later! =)
Why oh why, manboobzers ask themselves are a whole lot of men unhappy and angry?
And why oh why are some of those men either indifferent to or opposed to the constant promotion of feminism that is fucking everywhere all the fucking time?
Maybe, just maybe it’s because:
1 – Men are 3 to 4 times more likely to kill themselves than women.
(feminist response: “but women try to kill themselves, men are just so much more brutal and violent so they succeed more often.” = Minimising, shaming, victim blaming, to divert attention and support to feminists.)
1 a) – Men are 3 to 4 times more likely to be the victims of violence than women
(and whenever that’s brought up, feminists always say: “but women are all of DV victims!” (a LIE! – 40% of DV vics are men) And feminists always say “most men are victims of violence by other men” and “women are raped more than men” = Minimising, shaming, victim blaming to divert attention and support to feminists..)
b – Rape of men by women (being forced to penetrate) is not only whitewashed, but is REMOVED from official US FBI rape stats BY DEFINITION, because if it were put in, the figures for the two genders would be equal.
c – Rape of men in prison is a society wide joke.
3 – Men are screwed over in divorce, those men who haven’t married see how fucked over their male friends / relatives are post divorce.
(feminist response: “No, it’s women who are screwed in divorce! Women should get more!” Denial, shaming, to divert attention and support to feminists)
4 – Men are 95% of all the one the job deaths
(feminist response: “Men are lucky to be able to get those dirty, dangerous, difficult jobs, with the slightly higher pay!” – the cry of people who en masse don’t work in any of those jobs and wouldn’t do them.)
5 – Yes, the economy has been fucked by global corporatists and banksters. So, men are screwed for money and job security. (actually I have no idea how this is a new thing, because it’s been like that pretty much all my life, even when I was a kid all the nationalised indistries were being dismantled by Thatcher for her corporate cronies, so it’s just SNAFU, from my POV).
6 – Men are screwed by cuckolds + archaic laws that ignore new DNA technology in favour of assumptions of paternity developed in the Bronze Age. Societal-wide shaming ensues for not wanting to father a stranger’s child with a cheating partner.
There’s much, much more.
What all this adds up to is: Men have all kinds of problems aaaand no one gives a fuck about them. Not one single solitary fuck. We’re told to “man up” and fit into our assigned societal role already.
And there is pretty much nothing more fucking annoying when you are hip deep in shit to be endlessly told by feminsists in particualr and society in general that you have it soooo fucking great and you are soooo fucking priveleged and ooooh whatabouthewimminz!!?? and ooohhh “thousands of years of oppression”*!!??
Man up! Deadbeat! Pay for everything!
(*yeah, I’m yet to meet any living woman thousands of years old.)
That anyone here is even a tiny bit surprised that a whole load of men are sick to death of hearing about and from feminists? Just makes it crystal clear that none of you regard men as actual human beings.
That you imagine men feeling this way is going to go away?
Hahahahahahaha!!
You should probably read some history.
And I don’t mean gender studies revisionist “herstory”.
There will now follow pages of personal attacks and shaming attempts directed at me, coupled with loud and long attempts to deny and minimise men’s problems and bring all discussion back to women’s problems and why feminism is the answer to everything.
Exemplifying EXACTLY what I just said. Duh.
“Thank you, so much, gillyrosebee. You & the others have helped me so much.
As for Fibinachi & kirbywarp’s ideas, when a known MRA troll comes here, if I’m present, I’ll give him/her/hir what for!”
Another one for the chorus.
Safety in the crowd.
March in lockstep.
Tow the party line.
Be a good feminist.
Baa along in time.
lol!
“The list of growing jobs is heavy on nurturing professions, in which women, ironically, seem to benefit from old stereotypes and habits. Theoretically, there is no reason men should not be qualified.”
Of course this would have nothing at all to do with a society wide epidemic of child-abuse hysteria, in which it is men who are characterised as always being the abuser….
Despite the fact that statistically it is mothers who are most likely to abuse kids.
No, no, no. The fact that any man entering a “nuturing profession” will be constantly suspected as a monster can’t possibly have any influence on men’s absence from those professions.
/sarcasm
Oh good, The First Toe is arguing with himself again. That’s always fun.
“I’m sorry for the tantrum. I took it personally. I felt like I was in school. I was bullied a lot. I took it personally. Again, I realize that, yes I do sound suspicious. I’m sorry if I inadvertently made an MRA-type argument. You don’t know how much I hate those misogynist bastards. Violence against women & girls, especially sex crimes, is a huge berserk button for me.”
How about violence against men & boys? especially sex crimes?
Does that bother you at all?
Be honest now.
It’s ok for you to say you don’t give a shit.
This is manboobz – the chorus line here will back you up.
@serrana – yeah, don’t bother to listen to what I’m saying. You might be in danger of learning something.
/sarcasm
@The First Joe
And the MRM’s response?
1. Call for more funds to suicide prevention services? Nope. Volunteer on suicide hotlines? Nope. Make jokes about those who attempt suicide but do not succeed and belittle their experience as just “a cry for attention”? Check!
1a-c. Take actual steps to curb overall domestic violence or intimate partner violence? Nope. Work with rape/dv survivors? Nope. Belittle and joke about those who have been battered? Make rape jokes, including jokes about men being raped in prison? Threaten violence and rape against anyone who dares disagree with them? Check, check, and check!
2. ???
3. Work to focus on the needs and well being of children of divorced parents? Do actual work on equity in divorce proceedings? Nope (whining does not count as actual work).
4. Work to increase the efficacy of and adherence to workplace safety regulations? Nope. Work to pass legislation ensuring adequate health and disability insurance for those injured on the job? Nope. Work against (including strikes, boycotts, work slowdowns, etc.) companies with unfair and unsafe labor practices? Nope. Whine about how women have all the “good” jobs and call for more women to be killed on the job instead of lowering overall workplace injuries and deaths? Check again!
5. March, strike, whatever to protest the increasing profits of owners and rentiers? Nope. Whine, mope and complain about anyone who does march, strike, etc. for more just regulatory practices? Oh, absolutely check.
Quite simply, I call bullshit. Name one person on this site (you came here to complain, so tell us why this is the appropriate place for your whining) who says that. Provide me one quote not taken out of context and twisted to defy all reasonable interpretation.
My prediction: Nope. But certainly check on more fruitless whining and ranting as a form of ego masturbation.
Go take a nap and then call your mother when you are feeling a little less cranky.
@Joe:
1. Err, hyperbolizing the truth doesn’t make it false. Women attempt suicide more often, men succeed more often.
1a. Feminists do not say that only women are DV victims.
1c. Tell that to MRAs, who are all too happy to make prison rape jokes until feminists try to say that rape jokes aren’t funny. Then they froth about how feminists totally don’t complain about rape jokes against men. Except.. you know… feminists do not think that any rape jokes are ok or funny.
3. Feminists do not say that women deserve more than men in divorce overall.
4. Feminsts do not say that men are lucky to get more dangerous jobs. Feminists want women to have the same access to the same jobs, but men in generally won’t hire women because they don’t think the women can handle the work. Dangerous work conditions is an issue separate from gender.
5. A bad economy effects everyone equally. Dunno why this is even here…
6. In cases where judges rule that the man should provide for a child when he has been proven to not be the biological father, the judge is making the decision out of concern for the child. I don’t necessarily agree that this is always the right thing to do, but I’d have to look at actual cases.
In any case, MRA concerns over cuckolding are largely paranoia, as proven by that other troll who decided that 2.2 billion dollars a year for mandatory invasive medical procedures is totally justified. It barely ever happens, you completely discount a fathers love for his child even if the child isn’t genetically related, and it makes a mountain of a molehill to justifiy large and unnecessary actions.
If it’s all just a matter of
Then I’ll pass.
If only MRAs cared about them as well! Maybe they should focus on decreasing those numbers instead of calling said men to inflict those crimes on women.
You are a giant fucking dishonest turd of the highest order.
No one has said MEN are more violent, but their METHODS certainly are. If you can’t tell the difference, that’s on you. But I think you’re just twisting words for your sick satisfaction. Liar.
Everything you posted above was a disingenuous load.
Nah, what will follow is you calling disagreement a personal attack and shaming, and then get indignent when people get fed up with your insufferable gish gallop. But, you know, think what you want I guess.
Jesus, Joe, the straw feminists in your head are rowdy today. I hear they like tinfoil millinery, you should go make them nice hates.