It’s Question Time again. I’ve been reading through Susan Faludi’s Backlash and her more recent book on men, Stiffed, as well as some of the discussion surrounding Hanna Rosin’s The End of Men and Kay Hymowitz’ Manning Up. Faludi, writing in 1991, obviously saw the 80s as a time of antifeminist backlash.
My question is how you would characterize the years since she wrote her book. A continuation of that backlash? A time of feminist resurgence, from the Riot Grrls up to Rosin’s predicted End of Men? A mixed period of progress and regression?
I’m wondering both what your general assessment of the situation is, and also what specific evidence you have — either hard data or personal experience — that underlies your overall view. This could be anything from data on employment segregation or the prevalence of rape to your sense of how media representations of women and men have or haven’t changed, or even how people you know have changed the ways they talk about gender. What do you think are the significant data points to look at?
The question isn’t just what has changed for women but what has changed for men as well — with my underlying question being: what if anything in the real world has changed that might be making the angry men we talk about here so angry? I think we can agree that most of their own explanations are bullshit, but could there be a grain of truth to any of them? Or something that they don’t see that’s far more compelling?
In the interest of spurring discussion and providing some data to work with, here are a bunch of articles responding to (or at least vaguely related to the issues raised in) Rosin’s End of Men, including a link to her original Atlantic article. In addition, here are some posts by sociologist Philip Cohen challenging many of Rosin’s claims, as well as more general posts of his on gender inequality. (Feel free to completely ignore any or all of these; I just found them useful resources.)
But katz, he’s so EDGY. I mean, TYLER DURDEN.
Well, the world we live in would be boring to base your thoughts on. Might as well model your life after a fictional charismatic anarchist or a dashing heroic figure from a pulp novel or some charming, dominant vigilante from a comic.
I mean.
What could the repercussions of that that possibly be? It’s easier and neater and everyone knows what I mean when I say I’m a coyote and I feel like Tyler Durden really spoke to me and the Joker is an awesome guy.
This is one of those times when knowing zip about popular culture and films generally feels like a plus.
Budmiin, have you seen Fight Club? You do realize the protagonist wins only when he kills Tyler within himself and joins hands with Martha as an equal, right?
Or did we watch a different movie?
Fibinachi – you’re a coyote?
Tip: don’t buy stuff from Acme.
Just sayin’.
The Matrix and Fight Club are both movies that make teenagers go “OMG, you’re all so brainwashed! WAKE UP SHEEPLES!”
That is all you need to know.
You know, I love V for Vendetta…my head canon is a combo of the book and the movie, but “you can’t kill an idea” is TRUFAX. V, however, is a royal fucking asshole about half the time, and murderous all the time. Like, I’ll take the parts Anon has already swiped and forego blowing up parliament.
Teenagers and those who never grew out of that phase, aka MRA whiners. 😀
But wait, wasn’t Brad Pitt in Fight Club? Shouldn’t MRAs hate it?
Pitt was Tyler Durden even. So yep, they should, but he’s a manly manly break for society and blow it up kinda guy (literally, the movie ends in an act of terrorism that I’m amazed Americans still like after 9/11…like somehow blowing a ton of shit up at night is all the different, politically motivated terrorism is apparently much more acceptable when it’s a good looking white guy)
smh …
Nah, it’s more acceptable because it’s so profoundly unreal. And it targets credit companies, at night, with no casualties – it’s more an act of demolition than terrorism, really.
It’s actually one of the things I like about the book and movie. Despite everything sucking, and everyone being a complete fool, at least they aren’t haphazardly throwing away the life of the people they are ostensibly trying to help.
Still needs to go to jail for plusungood years, of course.
@Katz_Budmin, where on earth do you get the idea that you have to be either hypermasculine or relativist?
Mostly Rand..
@LBT: “So… if one fails one of the Man qualifications, what do you then become? I’m just wondering.”
I’m won’t sugar coat this. The Men who’ve develope a social network of supportive friends and family will most likely learn to adapt and start again, the rest will hurt themselves and others by internalizing the shame.
Well this has been a real gas so let me just reiterate my original statement. Men are retreating into pop culture. they feel attacked by multiple aspects of the world around them, Feminism gets the lions share of the blame and it’s only going to get worst.
TTFN..
Budmin, maybe SOME men are doing that. But you’re talking about a subset of those who are into Western popular culture. That’s hardly “all men” or even “all US men”. It’s not even “all men who are into Western popular culture” since we’ve got representatives of guys right here who aren’t acting the way you describe.
Also wtf believe anything that disingenuous hypocrite Rand says?
Budmin’s a Rand fanboy? Everything is explained. What a maroon.
Sure, buddy, blame your failures on feminism. That may go over well with the MRM crowd, but it’s a steaming pile and you know it,
@Budmin
And why are men feeling attacked?
“That’s what postmodernism gives you.”
Says the guy who doesn’t know what postmodernism is.
“To me, the backlash against feminism revolves around modern young men having a tough time formulating positive male identities. They find themselves at odds with Academics who see masculinity as an unquantifiable pattern of enforced behavior.”
Masculinity is unquantifiable? You’re making this harder than it has to be, fella.
“They’re confronted by Feminist who see masculinity as being problematic at best and often times a scourge on humanity…”
I’d like a citation on this. I don’t think you understand the ideas you’re attempting to criticize.
“… added to an industrial age that’s decreasing the value of traditionally masculine labor…”
OK, that would be the whole human race that’s slighted. See, ’cause we’re past the first half of the industrial age. We’re the digital age now — and computers take lots of peoples’ jobs. Travel Agents? Barely a thing anymore, for example. Also, remember the Agricultural Age? Men and women worked those fields, buckaroo. How do you think women felt when they lost those gigs?
“…coupled with the saving grace of Pop Culture where the heroic ideal of Man is still intact…”
Meh. Yeah, lot’s of “Nice Guys” grew up to become movie producers, so the heroes are still there, but mostly I’m seeing a lot of comedies about man-child protagonists. Also, pop culture does not belong just to you and your demo; everyone wants to be represented on the screen.
“So we/they escape into pop culture (movies, music, comic books, video games, porn) and defend these Masculine identities from the perceived attacks of feminist critics.”
I escape into pop culture too, despite the imperfections.
I didn’t realize Tony Stark was anti-feminist, by the way, or what, he’s a means to escape feminist critics. But wait, his number one confidant is Pepper Potts. Is that misandry? He shouldn’t have to listen to a girl, for god’s sake. Whooa, what the fuck? Black Widow? Misandry. No wait, is that what you meant?
You seem to need a lot of ego fluffing. Wouldn’t it be easier in the long run to be whoever you want to be and accpet women are human?
“I don’t see an end to this social entropy. In all likelihood these men will probably end up as wards of the state, but oh well, that’s life.”
What men? You mean you? Lots of guys don’t always feel their egos are inches away from being thrown into an imaginary furnance run by straw feminists.
“an imaginary furnance run by straw feminists.”
Just as well it’s imaginary. Running a furnace when you’re made of straw would be an OHS nightmare.
Kitteh…EXACTLY!
😉
Fibinachi — yeah, I guess you’re right, as far as revolution via blowing shite up, Fight Club did go the most…justifiable? route. Not that it shouldn’t still be a crime, but they were after institutions, not people. (And I realize my comparison was shitty, but I’m a New Englander)
How is that a moral code?
Value to whom? Never asks for help? Solves problems? (like where to put the paper towel holder? Or what’s for dinner?).
I think you meant “450 representatives”. Unless you consider male politicians to Men first, with Male interest as their only goal.
You think wrong. You said the landscape in which “masculinity” is framed is dominated by feminists and academics; who put women over men. You ignored what I said those men were doing (hint, it wasn’t failing to put male interest in second place).
Because they aren’t being told by “Feminist and Academics” that “The Heroic Ideal of Man” is a right and proper thing, and the way to run one’s life?”
<a href =img33.glitterfy.com/12117/glitterfy2193958T831D30.gifBINGO! (FTFY)
@Howard Bannister Maybe I need to remind you that this is an internal monologue not some enforced declaration…LOL
Maybe you should use your “Inside Voice” for your internal monologue.
Yet another victim of the HTML Monster. Tsk tsk.
FTFY, the sequel: FTFY goes meta
🙂 (you know I kid, right?)
…how funny would it have been if I borked the HTML on that? XD
@Pecunium
You really don’t fear ridicule, do you? You first accused me of having deliberately altered the meaning of the passage of the text I quoted by eliding a phrase, when you realized that the elision didn’t change the meaning, you, then, accused me of having elided the rest of the text (which is a good definition of what a quote is) and neglected the context… and the context is that he didn’t hate mothers in essence but the “human by-product into which women are transformed”, wow, huge different, I’m such a disingenuous ill-intentioned liar for having omitted this detail…
But you have good reasons to not fear ridicule here : most people here would rather jump under a truck than admit that I’m right on something and admitting that you lied in order to accuse me of being disingenuous would be like admitting that I’m right on something, so it’s not like you have to fear of being called on your bullshit, huh?
You had an opportunity to prove one of your accusation and you failed, the rest of your accusations is like this one : gratuitous unfounded accusation.
You’re a little bit paranoid, a little bit dense and I’ve just discovered that you’re also a show off who would rather make ridiculous arguments rather than admit that he’s wrong.
P.S: I’ve never lied about anything here, you can say that I’m creepy, that I’m an asshole or whatever, that’s your call, but I’m not a liar : I’ve always been frank.
You on the opposite… You have a little tendency for showing off, like exaggerating a little bit your French reading skills, isn’t it?(You understand French like a understand Spanish, i.e approximately).
Brz — leaving out “[mothers are] a human by-product” is rather a huge omission. Like, go tell your mother she’s a human by-product and report back on the results. Seeing how I prefer not to be screamed at, I’ll pass on trying it.