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Question Time: Backlash, Frontlash, The End of Men?

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It’s Question Time again. I’ve been reading through Susan Faludi’s Backlash and her more recent book on men, Stiffed, as well as some of the discussion surrounding Hanna Rosin’s The End of Men and Kay Hymowitz’ Manning Up. Faludi, writing in 1991, obviously saw the 80s as a time of antifeminist backlash.

My question is how you would characterize the years since she wrote her book. A continuation of that backlash? A time of feminist resurgence, from the Riot Grrls up to Rosin’s predicted End of Men? A mixed period of progress and regression?

I’m wondering both what your general assessment of the situation is, and also what specific evidence you have — either hard data or personal experience — that underlies your overall view. This could be anything from data on employment segregation or the prevalence of rape to your sense of how media representations of women and men have or haven’t changed, or even how people you know have changed the ways they talk about gender. What do you think are the significant data points to look at?

The question isn’t just what has changed for women but what has changed for men as well — with my underlying question being: what if anything in the real world has changed that might be making the angry men we talk about here so angry? I think we can agree that most of their own explanations are bullshit, but could there be a grain of truth to any of them? Or something that they don’t see that’s far more compelling?

In the interest of spurring discussion and providing some data to work with, here are a bunch of articles responding to (or at least vaguely related to the issues raised in) Rosin’s End of Men, including a link to her original Atlantic article.  In addition, here are some posts by sociologist Philip Cohen challenging many of Rosin’s claims, as well as more general posts of his on gender inequality. (Feel free to completely ignore any or all of these; I just found them useful resources.)

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Aaliyah
7 years ago

Well said.

howardbann1ster
7 years ago

Funny how he doesn’t want to engage with the posts where I engaged with his craptastic ‘there’s no patriarchy’ with citations.

Gee, I wonder why that would be?

It’s almost as if contact with numbers and studies hurts his preconceptions.

Also, lulz at the ‘creep-shaming.’ You mean to say men of a creepy demeanor, men with faces that look creepy. But everywhere we use the word we’ve been clear that ‘creep’ in this context is totally about ignoring boundaries and harassment. And everywhere I see feminists talking about creeps and creepiness.

Gee. I wonder why it’s so important for you to conflate the two things?

Just like it’s so important for you to conflate the feminist emphasis on consent with ‘shaming people who don’t know what they want’ rather than ‘being against rape’?

Brz, the more you talk, the more something becomes clear. And it’s not your Frenchness. It’s how central rape and boundary-crossing is to you. How that’s the stuff you’re against feminism for.

You could care less about women being underrepresented in the halls of power. There are important issues about sex (rape!) to talk about!

You are creepy.

Budmin
Budmin
7 years ago

I’m seeing a definitive lack of perspective in these comments. There seems to be an aversion to view straight men as vulnerable individuals in all this fracas. It’s as unfortunate as it is a routine occurrence when discussing men’s issues on female dominated sites, but oh well, that’s life.

Any way…

To me, the backlash against feminism revolves around modern young men having a tough time formulating positive male identities. They find themselves at odds with Academics who see masculinity as an unquantifiable pattern of enforced behavior. They’re confronted by Feminist who see masculinity as being problematic at best and often times a scourge on humanity, added to an industrial age that’s decreasing the value of traditionally masculine labor coupled with the saving grace of Pop Culture where the heroic ideal of Man is still intact.

So we/they escape into pop culture (movies, music, comic books, video games, porn) and defend these Masculine identities from the perceived attacks of feminist critics.

I don’t see an end to this social entropy. In all likelihood these men will probably end up as wards of the state, but oh well, that’s life.

pecunium
7 years ago

I’m not the only one who disagrees with you.

But again, the real problem is that you are lying about things.

You orignally saidThat kind of stuff is unknown, even in France. No one knows that a pedophile writer have been interviewed by a gay activist in a well-known left newspaper to say of much he loves 8-years-old boys and how much he hates those mothers who try to forbid him to bang their sons.

But the article is about how he hates the social structure of the family. He blames the “atmosphere of asexuality”, which keeps him from having sex with children (because women, and mothers and grandmothers make up the primary period of rearing he says affects them. At it’s most charitable this is what he means by, “the by product they become”, [which yes, I did misread. As I said, French is not my native language, it doesn’t change the thrust of the interview] means they are the primary targets of his ire).

Of course Guy Hocquenghem has been dead for 25 years, so his role in the development of queer theory in france is pretty much purely historical. Unless you can show that his views on juvenile sex are widespread, then even if this article were as you painted it, it’s not relevent to the present.

But I did what you asked. I read the french, and it shows you were playing fast and loose with your interpretation of the meaning. You are, of course, trying to deflect from the real issue, which is that you have both bad motives, and are lying about who/what you are.

Here issome more your falsity (with bonus points of the early evolution of both your story, and your language skills).

Even in this thread you have lied. You say no one engages you, while you duck the question posed to you; pretending that people only accuse you of being not french. It ain’t so.

And you admitted to trolling; so why should we believe anything you say?

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

There seems to be an aversion to view straight men as vulnerable individuals in all this fracas.

…in terms of a society that still disadvantages and victimizes women disproportionately, not to mention non-whites and non-straights, yeah, you betcha we’ll get around to how vulnerable those playing on the easiest setting are later. Once we get everybody else to that scary frightening place of sometimes being vulnerable.

To me, the backlash against feminism revolves around modern young men having a tough time formulating positive male identities.

…strangely, most modern young men I know have had an easier time figuring this out than older less modern men who have a very strict view of what a positive male identity is.

confronted by Feminist who see masculinity as being problematic at best and often times a scourge on humanity,

Found your problem.

That’s not masculinity. That’s MASCULINITY, THE ONE TRUE WAY.

And it is a scourge on humanity.

I have no problem with masculinity.

added to an industrial age that’s decreasing the value of traditionally masculine labor coupled with the saving grace of Pop Culture where the heroic ideal of Man is still intact.

…..wow.

thebionicmommy
7 years ago

I’m seeing a definitive lack of perspective in these comments. There seems to be an aversion to view straight men as vulnerable individuals in all this fracas. It’s as unfortunate as it is a routine occurrence when discussing men’s issues on female dominated sites, but oh well, that’s life.

Most people realize and understand straight men can be vulnerable, and that they can face difficulties in life. The thing to understand here is that they aren’t having trouble because they are men or because they are straight. Being male and being hetero make things easier, not harder.

Men will probably get some push back if they demand to have their needs put first all the time, though, especially at feminist sites. For women, one of the benefits of feminist websites is that they are one of the few places where they can discuss their own needs and feelings. Outside of feminist spaces, women are encouraged to put themselves last and put men first. So when a guy comes waltzing in and ordering feminists to change focus and make him the top priority, he shouldn’t be surprised when everyone doesn’t roll out the red carpet for him.

To me, the backlash against feminism revolves around modern young men having a tough time formulating positive male identities.

You’re not giving enough credit here to feminists. We are the ones arguing that men shouldn’t be shamed for showing their feelings, for crying, or showing vulnerability. We want men to feel comfortable doing “women’s work” and not face ridicule from other men for doing so. I’ve mentioned these guys before, but this is a topic where male feminists like Michael Flood and Michael Kimmel have done a great job exploring the ways patriarchy forces men into gender roles, too, and how they can break free of that.

They’re confronted by Feminist who see masculinity as being problematic at best and often times a scourge on humanity, added to an industrial age that’s decreasing the value of traditionally masculine labor coupled with the saving grace of Pop Culture where the heroic ideal of Man is still intact.

Feminists are not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with being a man. Look, our host here is David, a man. There are tons of men who post here, too, like Pecunium, Howard Bannister, Falconer, Shadow, and many others. Why would they feel welcome here or enjoy this site if feminism was about bashing men or masculinity?

My point is that being male does mean having male privilege, and pointing out that privilege is not the same thing as putting someone down.

When it comes to a drop in the value of labor, well that applies to everyone, not just men. That’s an economic issue that hurts everyone but the rich, but it hurts marginalized groups the worst. The solutions to that problem are complex and require more redistribution of wealth, but I won’t go into one of my Keynesian rants.

pecunium
7 years ago

Budmin: To me, the backlash against feminism revolves around modern young men having a tough time formulating positive male identities.

To me you are full of it.

Now that we know where we stand, why do I think this?

Because this

They find themselves at odds with Academics who see masculinity as an unquantifiable pattern of enforced behavior. They’re confronted by Feminist who see masculinity as being problematic at best and often times a scourge on humanity, added to an industrial age that’s decreasing the value of traditionally masculine labor coupled with the saving grace of Pop Culture where the heroic ideal of Man is still intact.

says that only in “pop” culture is this idea still intact. Nonsense. Unless you count the news, the presence of politictians like Vitter getting away with illegal activities with prostitutes, Kobe Bryant getting off for rape, Mike Tyson getting away with rape (in that he was convicted, and went back to boxing and roles in movies), the glorification of cops and firefighters and soldiers (all of which we hear “are too tough for women to do).

It also implies that “academics and feminists” have control of all other aspects of the culture. To which I say, look at our political landscape, where Equal Pay for Equal work is still in contention. Where pundits debate the “merits” of letting women vote. Where a group of almost 450 men get to decide reproductive rights for 150 million women.

[A]dded to an industrial age that’s decreasing the value of traditionally masculine labor which is feminism’s fault because… all those nasty women outsourced production, and did away with localised manufacturing when they were in charge (ok, you could lay some of the blame on Margaret Thatcher, but it’s hard to say she was a Feminist, and she was certainly no Academic).

I don’t see an end to this social entropy. In all likelihood these men will probably end up as wards of the state, but oh well, that’s life.

Right… you saying they are going to end up in prison?

Because the aren’t being told by “Feminist and Academics” that “The Heroic Ideal of Man” is a right and proper thing, and the way to run one’s life?

Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

Aaliyah
7 years ago

I’m seeing a definitive lack of perspective in these comments. There seems to be an aversion to view straight men as vulnerable individuals in all this fracas. It’s as unfortunate as it is a routine occurrence when discussing men’s issues on female dominated sites, but oh well, that’s life.

No, we just contend that straight men are not oppressed for being straight or male.

To me, the backlash against feminism revolves around modern young men having a tough time formulating positive male identities. They find themselves at odds with Academics who see masculinity as an unquantifiable pattern of enforced behavior. They’re confronted by Feminist who see masculinity as being problematic at best and often times a scourge on humanity, added to an industrial age that’s decreasing the value of traditionally masculine labor coupled with the saving grace of Pop Culture where the heroic ideal of Man is still intact.

Feminists (at least non-radfems) don’t say that masculinity is inherently problematic; they say that patriarchal masculinity is problematic. How is this so hard to understand?

Budmin
Budmin
7 years ago

@Howard Bannister, & thebionicmommy My intention was not to play the oppression Olympics game. This was just a broad summery of some of the attitudes I’ve witnessed on line.

Yes concepts of vulnerability, oppression and masculinity are always up for subjective interpretation, there however are still certain aspects of masculinity that I hold as axiomatic truth, not just as a means to promote conformity, but as a means to promote mental health and social cohesion as well.

A man is a hero.
A man solves problems.
A man ask for help last *if ever.
A man must protect & provide for those he love.
A man must create value before he is to be considered valuable by the community.

These of course, are my own opinions but they impart a structural foundation of what many would view as a productive moral code. I believe that undefined masculinity is as dangerous if not more dangerous then rigid “MASCULINITY, THE ONE TRUE WAY”.

Aaliyah
7 years ago

A man is a hero.
A man solves problems.
A man ask for help last *if ever.
A man must protect & provide for those he love.
A man must create value before he is to be considered valuable by the community.

Fuck you and your marginalization of people who aren’t male or masculine. This normativity you advocate is highly oppressive.

thebionicmommy
7 years ago

Yes concepts of vulnerability, oppression and masculinity are always up for subjective interpretation, there however are still certain aspects of masculinity that I hold as axiomatic truth, not just as a means to promote conformity, but as a means to promote mental health and social cohesion as well.

A man is a hero.
A man solves problems.
A man ask for help last *if ever.
A man must protect & provide for those he love.
A man must create value before he is to be considered valuable by the community.

Those expectations both help and hurt men. It helps men by giving them a higher status in society, because they are viewed as the heroes while women, non binaries, children, and the elderly are put below in the category of “weak people that need to be saved”. This is actually an example of male privilege here, that men get the status of heroic problem solvers. These rules also hurt men by putting pressure on them to act stoic even when they are feeling vulnerable. It makes them feel ashamed to depend on women, and it definitely marginalizes men who don’t fit into the narrow masculine ideal.

By the way, sometimes women want to be heroes and solve problems. Sometimes we want to protect and provide for the ones we love. We want to feel valuable to our communities, too. Instead of saying those are male traits, can’t we call those traits that are common to adults of all genders?

Budmin
Budmin
7 years ago

@pecunium
when you said_”Our political landscape, where a group of almost 450 men get to decide reproductive rights for 150 million women.”

I think you meant “450 representatives”. Unless you consider male politicians to Men first, with Male interest as their only goal. Which is kind of unfair. These are the exact same Male politicians who are funding the construction of more prisons to house men.

_”Right… you saying they are going to end up in prison?

Because they aren’t being told by “Feminist and Academics” that “The Heroic Ideal of Man” is a right and proper thing, and the way to run one’s life?”

BINGO!

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

A man is a hero.

A man is always the hero, right? And as such he’s allowed to have struggles, a rich internal life, strengths and weaknesses. Watch fucking Iron Man 3; a rich white man has to come to grips with WHAT A POWERFUL AWESOME MAN HE IS, learning to take care of the whole world and the vulnerable women around him.

And in a nod to feminism, the damsel in distress gets to flex her muscles in two seperate scenes, and have a whole three lines of meaningful dialogue!

Man gets to be the hero, and he gets to be rewarded. The woman’s reward? She gets to look after him more! Yay!

This way in which men are ‘marginalized’ that you have identified sure does seem to benefit men a whole awful lot.

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

I think you meant “450 representatives”. Unless you consider male politicians to Men first, with Male interest as their only goal. Which is kind of unfair. These are the exact same Male politicians who are funding the construction of more prisons to house men.

Way to elide the racism involved.

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

”Right… you saying they are going to end up in prison?

Because they aren’t being told by “Feminist and Academics” that “The Heroic Ideal of Man” is a right and proper thing, and the way to run one’s life?”

BINGO!

….wut? “Bingo”? Really? My god, are you really that facile?

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

I think you meant “450 representatives”. Unless you consider male politicians to Men first, with Male interest as their only goal. Which is kind of unfair. These are the exact same Male politicians who are funding the construction of more prisons to house men.

…and you avoid acknowledging that these guys won’t pass a Fair Pay Act, have compromised womens health care again and again, and in general seem to be utterly unrepresentative of the women. Gee, I wonder why you wouldn’t engage with that?

katz
7 years ago

Jeez, you guys, there’s a serious lack of perspective here in your inability to accept that white dudes are awesomer and more important than everyone else. Luckily we have Bruce Willis to set you straight.

thebionicmommy
7 years ago

Budmin, if you want to hear praise for men all the time, then you ought to go to a patriarchal fundie church. Seriously, they say stuff like that all the time, how men are natural leaders, men are heroes, men are strong providers. They tell the women we have “complimentary” responsibilities like taking care of babies, cooking nice meals for the manly leaders, and stroking their egos with praise and sex.

Hell will freeze over before you hear feminists making those kinds of statements. That pretty much goes against everything we stand for.

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

Yes concepts of vulnerability, oppression and masculinity are always up for subjective interpretation, there however are still certain aspects of masculinity that I hold as axiomatic truth, not just as a means to promote conformity, but as a means to promote mental health and social cohesion as well.

A man is a hero.

Oh, wait. Whew. I misread that. I thought you were trying to define ways men are also oppressed by toxic masculinity. But that’s your list of solutions; that’s your PRESCRIPTION!!!

Hahhahahhahhahahaha FUCK YOU.

katz
7 years ago

not just as a means to promote conformity

*snrk* “Yes, my beliefs would force everyone to act the same, but that’s not the goal. It’s more of a fringe benefit!”

Budmin
Budmin
7 years ago

@thebionicmommy
_”By the way, sometimes women want to be heroes and solve problems. Sometimes we want to protect and provide for the ones we love. We want to feel valuable to our communities, too. Instead of saying those are male traits, can’t we call those traits that are common to adults of all genders?”

I understand what you’re saying. Feel free to place a *W-O* or even an *A-N-Y* in front of every *M-A-N* statement that I made.That’s what postmodernism gives you. I don’t have a problem with that, but this is still how I choose to claim my masculine identity in the face of zero foundational post modernist world.

…It’s either this or The Joker or Fight Club’s Tyler Durden…

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

but this is still how I choose to claim my masculine identity in the face of zero foundational post modernist world.

…It’s either this or The Joker or Fight Club’s Tyler Durden…

SNORT

You know that both of them were proven wrong explicitly at the end of the third act, right?

THEY’RE WRONG

THEY’RE POISON

AND SO ARE YOU

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

but this is still how I choose to claim my masculine identity in the face of zero foundational post modernist world.

…It’s either this or The Joker or Fight Club’s Tyler Durden…

I mean, for real, I am totes post-modern and wonderfully nihilist. A moral relativist, yet!

And you? What you just said is “if you won’t let me define men as the heroes and the only real people and in charge and the best then I’ll burn down society, see how you like that!!!”

Um, yeah. We’re terrified. Shivering and quaking.

Budmin
Budmin
7 years ago

@Howard Bannister Maybe I need to remind you that this is an internal monologue not some enforced declaration…LOL..Why do I feel like I just walked into a Reddit board?

katz
7 years ago

…It’s either this or The Joker or Fight Club’s Tyler Durden…

And you say feminists take a dim view of men!

For real, dude, you can solve problems and take care of those you care about and be important to your community without forcing some people to also act the same as you, and without forcing other people to not do any of those things.

You’re not a hero if you force other people to be helpless so you can be helpful, or if you insist that other people are valueless so that you can feel valued.

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

@Howard Bannister Maybe I need to remind you that this is an internal monologue not some enforced declaration…

HAHAHAHAHA

not just as a means to promote conformity, but as a means to promote mental health and social cohesion as well.

You know we can read what you just wrote, right?

And you know words have meaning, right?

PS: “Axiomatic”? In a pig’s eye

katz
7 years ago

The two-dot ellipsis strikes again!

If you want to talk to yourself, get a livejournal, or better yet, a paper journal. Then you’ll never have to worry about other people randomly reading it. But if you post your random personal thoughts in the midst of an ongoing discussion, there’s a very real danger that they might be–*gasp!*–discussed.

Budmin
Budmin
7 years ago

@Howard Bannister Feminism & Academia isn’t the problem Nihilism is. Feminism & Academia are ineffective in solving male nihilism. That’s My point in a nutshell. Btw you’bang that Ayn Rand chick yet or What?

thebionicmommy
7 years ago

That’s what postmodernism gives you. I don’t have a problem with that, but this is still how I choose to claim my masculine identity in the face of zero foundational post modernist world.

If those ideals you came up with give you a sense of purpose and pride, then that’s great. When they appeal to women or other marginalized groups, that isn’t because of post modernism, though. It just means that you’re coming up with a list of heroic ideals that appeal to more people than just straight white men.

By the way, I hear post modernism referenced all the time in regards to feminism and I still don’t get what it is. I’ll read descriptions of what it’s supposed to mean and my brain will freeze with boredom from all of the academic buzz words. But I digress, sorry.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Sorry feminism’s not dropping everything to tend to your nihilistic boo-boo, Budmin.

Wait, I’m not. Go whine somewhere else.

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

@Howard Bannister Feminism & Academia isn’t the problem Nihilism is. Feminism & Academia are ineffective in solving male nihilism. That’s My point in a nutshell.

Are you not reading my posts? Tell me one thing wrong with my nihilism. Seriously. Why does it need solving?

Btw you’bang that Ayn Rand chick yet or What?

What the hell??

Oh, wait, I see. I mentioned that I don’t think there is actually any point to life except what we find in it, that there’s no morality that’s objective, except that which we decide has meaning and agree to.

And somehow this = Objectivism?

For the record, Objectivism posits the opposite. Do read a book.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

“A man is a hero”

What, all 3.5 billion of them? I don’t think you quite understand what the word “hero” means.

katz
7 years ago

If those ideals you came up with give you a sense of purpose and pride, then that’s great. When they appeal to women or other marginalized groups, that isn’t because of post modernism, though. It just means that you’re coming up with a list of heroic ideals that appeal to more people than just straight white men.

The trouble is that what he gets purpose and pride from setting himself up as better than other people by attributing to himself heroic qualities that he denies to other people. He can’t think of himself as valuable except by thinking of other people as less valuable.

In other news, feminism=postmodernism=objectivism. I think adherents of all three philosophies are likely to be equally surprised. Anyone else reminded of that Worldview Weekend quiz that rates you on a scale from Christian to Communist/Marxist/Socialist/Secular Humanist?

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

In other news, feminism=postmodernism=objectivism. I think adherents of all three philosophies are likely to be equally surprised. Anyone else reminded of that Worldview Weekend quiz that rates you on a scale from Christian to Communist/Marxist/Socialist/Secular Humanist?

Oh, YES. That one was SUPER-DUPER fun! 😀 😀 😀

Fade
7 years ago

Is what’s Budmin’s trying to say that this is a problem or a good thing?

A man is a hero.
A man solves problems.
A man ask for help last *if ever.
A man must protect & provide for those he love.
A man must create value before he is to be considered valuable by the community.

Because this often stems from sexism.

A man is a hero. a woman is physically and mentally incapable of being a hero
A man solves problems. a woman cannot solve problems
A man ask for help last *if ever.a woman has to ask for help because of her aforementioned inability to solve problems
A man must protect & provide for those he love.a woman must rely on others for protection and to provide for her because she cannot do this herself
A man must create value before he is to be considered valuable by the community. a woman must still create value (in terms of children/modesty/politeness) before she is valuabe to teh community, too

MRAs would have you believe that both of these are different sides on the same sexism coin*, but they ignore reality to do that. If society tells you that a true man is a hero, and he succeeds in being a hero, he has gained something and can look out for himself. if society tells you that a true woman is not a hero, she cannot do anything to accomplish this except rely on other people to not put her in a position where she needs to be a hero.

If a man is expected to provide for his family and he gets a job that can pay, he can provide for his family. If the job is bad for him, he can find another job. If his wife is abusive to him, he has financial resources to leave her (though he would be faced with stigma for “letting” a woman abuse him b/c men are supposed to be strong)

If a woman is expected to be nice to her man in response for him providing for her, she has no control over how to leave if things go bad. She doesn’t have financial resources, and often times communities support an abusive man rather than an abused woman.

MRAs think that these are the same in terms of sexism, but the men are pressured by holding up “powerful” as the ideal. The women are pressured by holding up “powerless” as the ideal

While society may pressure men to be powerful, they have much more of an opportunity to change things because they are pressured to be powerful. A man who succeeds in the gender-essentialist view of the world will wind up in a position of power and therefore have power over his life; a woman who succeeds in the gender-essentialist view of the world ends up in a position of submission, and therefore does not have power of her life as much.

*analogy fail FTW!

And… i read through all this assuming Budmin thought those were bad things. *facepalm* Newsflash, Budmin, not all men want to be heroes or providers. My brother just wants to grow up and design awesome computer programs, okay? Don’t try to infect him or people like him with your toxic masculinity bs.

then you ought to go to a patriarchal fundie church.

Arg, my dad lent me some of his church newspaper, and they keep calling the church “patriarchal” like it’s a good thing. I want to say “NOOOO No it’s not!”

Feminism & Academia are ineffective in solving male nihilism.

WTF is male nihilism?

budmin
budmin
7 years ago

@cassadrasayss, I use the term “Hero” to shame myself and only myself. If I am doing something criminal then i’m not being a Man according to my own standards. One mo’ this is an internal dialog.

budmin
budmin
7 years ago

@Fade you’re the one setting up the dialect. If I didnt say anthing about womem please don’t attribute quotes to me that I never said. Thank x

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

@Fade: No, that was my mistake. He’s PRESCRIBING those as his cure–with all the baggage they come with.

I’ll post something about nihilism. It’s longer.

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

@Fade you’re the one setting up the dialect. If I didnt say anthing about womem please don’t attribute quotes to me that I never said. Thank x

Dumbass. Everything you say has consequences for women; your refusal to see how you deny them agency doesn’t undo it.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I am curious about the reasons why Criminal and Hero are the only available options.

(Hey, I did study psychology at one point, this could make a nice little refresher course.)

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

So, Nihilism, what it means, and what budmin thinks it means.

Nihilism is anytime you stop and ask the question, so what matters? And why does it matter? And does it maybe not matter at all?

Take morality. (moral relativism) Is there an OBJECTIVE case that can be made for right and wrong? (why, hello, objectivism!)

I don’t think so any more.

That is, there’s nothing outside of humanity that sets down a rule, a Thou Shalt Not Kill. There’s no higher power defining rules.

There’s just us. Here. With each other.

Does that mean anything goes?

Let’s not be silly, now! Lots of things matter! If all we have is us, here, with each other, then nothing matters except us, except each other.

But to him, it’s all ‘if I can’t be the hero, then I have to be the villain.’

Black and white morality. If there’s no externally derived rules, no OBJECTIVE reason not to hurt other people, then he feels free to hurt other people. “…It’s either this or The Joker or Fight Club’s Tyler Durden…”

If he can’t define himself by hypermasculinity, then he’s going to define himself by hypermasculinity in a totally different way!! (oh, the circles hurt my head…)

Does that make sense?

Howard Bannister
7 years ago

Dammit, there was room for a cheap shot in there, replacting the second use of OBJECTIVE with AXIOMATIC.

Oh, well.

Gametime
7 years ago

Brz:

AHAHA, not true, but I love this one.

Huh, whaddya know. Never noticed that tag. My mistake.

… of course, in your haste to prove me wrong about feminist websites using the word “creepy,” you also inadvertently demonstrated that feminist websites apparently use the word “creepy” to refer to people who blame kidnappings and rape on the victims of kidnapping and rape, which completely puts the lie to your whinging about how feminists are big meanies who call perfectly decent men “creepy” just to shame them. Whoops!

(Also I would posit that Manboobz, given it’s particular focus and mission statement, is more likely to use the word than other sites focused on feminism, both as a reaction to MRAs complaining about it and because it’s more likely to be apt, but I don’t have actual proof for that.)

Budmin:

I understand what you’re saying. Feel free to place a *W-O* or even an *A-N-Y* in front of every *M-A-N* statement that I made.That’s what postmodernism gives you. I don’t have a problem with that, but this is still how I choose to claim my masculine identity in the face of zero foundational post modernist world.
…It’s either this or The Joker or Fight Club’s Tyler Durden…

hahahahahahahahaha this is the funniest fucking thing

like seriously

I can’t decide what tickles me more: That you believe the only alternative to an antiquated patriarchal view of gender roles and norms is cartoonish supervillainy or that your cultural touchstone for post-modernism is apparently the Joker.

cloudiah
7 years ago

A man is a hero.
A man solves problems.
A man ask for help last *if ever.
A man must protect & provide for those he love.
A man must create value before he is to be considered valuable by the community.

That man must be busy.

katz
7 years ago

I’m imagining a man getting stuck indefinitely against some rather minor obstacle (eg, not having the right paperwork to register for his college classes) because of his need to solve problems himself and not ask for help, even if the obvious, quick solution is to ask a potentially-female person whose job it is to help people with those sorts of problems (eg, a registrar).

Fade
7 years ago

@Fade you’re the one setting up the dialect. If I didnt say anthing about womem please don’t attribute quotes to me that I never said. Thank x

I assumed you were talking about toxic masculinity, which usually fits those narratives. I said at the bottom I did not read that you set that up as moral code for yourself, which is kind of widgy. What does hero mean to you? Is it something you can do yourself, or does it rely on others?

@HowardBann1ster

it sort of makes sense. I mean, you explained it well, but the “if I can’t be the hero, I have to be the villain” thing doesn’t make sense. XD Not like, I don’t get what it means, I just don’t get black-and-white morality so much.

and… i don’t even know if that made sense. 😛

Gametime
7 years ago

That is, there’s nothing outside of humanity that sets down a rule, a Thou Shalt Not Kill. There’s no higher power defining rules.

Technically a lack of belief in a morality-defining higher power or external force doesn’t imply moral nihilism. It might imply that moral realism is wrong, although some people argue even that point, but there are positions between those two.

(Although the distinction between moral nihilism with an acknowledgement that we all need to get along and moral constructivism is entirely academic, so this is really just pedantry on my part. MY DEGREE WILL BE GOOD FOR SOMETHING, DAMNIT!)

bagelsan
bagelsan
7 years ago

…It’s either this or The Joker or Fight Club’s Tyler Durden…

So you can be fictional or… imaginary. Let me know how that life plan works out for ya.

cloudiah
7 years ago

A llama is a hero.
A llama solves problems.
A llama asks for help last *if ever.
A llama must protect & provide for those zie loves.
A llama must create value before zie is to be considered valuable by the community.

It almost works.

Fade
7 years ago

The value the llama creates for the community lies in its cuteness factor

….

animals have it easy