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Question Time: Backlash, Frontlash, The End of Men?

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It’s Question Time again. I’ve been reading through Susan Faludi’s Backlash and her more recent book on men, Stiffed, as well as some of the discussion surrounding Hanna Rosin’s The End of Men and Kay Hymowitz’ Manning Up. Faludi, writing in 1991, obviously saw the 80s as a time of antifeminist backlash.

My question is how you would characterize the years since she wrote her book. A continuation of that backlash? A time of feminist resurgence, from the Riot Grrls up to Rosin’s predicted End of Men? A mixed period of progress and regression?

I’m wondering both what your general assessment of the situation is, and also what specific evidence you have — either hard data or personal experience — that underlies your overall view. This could be anything from data on employment segregation or the prevalence of rape to your sense of how media representations of women and men have or haven’t changed, or even how people you know have changed the ways they talk about gender. What do you think are the significant data points to look at?

The question isn’t just what has changed for women but what has changed for men as well — with my underlying question being: what if anything in the real world has changed that might be making the angry men we talk about here so angry? I think we can agree that most of their own explanations are bullshit, but could there be a grain of truth to any of them? Or something that they don’t see that’s far more compelling?

In the interest of spurring discussion and providing some data to work with, here are a bunch of articles responding to (or at least vaguely related to the issues raised in) Rosin’s End of Men, including a link to her original Atlantic article.  In addition, here are some posts by sociologist Philip Cohen challenging many of Rosin’s claims, as well as more general posts of his on gender inequality. (Feel free to completely ignore any or all of these; I just found them useful resources.)

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CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

It’s Sunday and I’m feeling lazy and it’s hot, therefore there will be no chorus lines. Do you know how much high kicking that can involve? Plus I would need to change into cuter shoes.

Smudge
11 years ago

Try to make future predictions from your own views, not the views of the mindless droves of men on the “manosphere”, since they tend to contain a list of blind revenge fantasies based on feelings and not fact.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
11 years ago

How much do you all want to bet that Joe will be back sometime in the next couple days with the exact same list, as if nobody responded to him? I’d take that bet…

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

Joe left the revenge-brothels where single mothers will be placed out of his MRUtopia. I am disappoint.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

Cassandra: Jesus. That would be like playing John Lennon’s “Mother.”

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

What Joe doesn’t realize is that very few men hate women like he does. Even if more men opted out, we’d get along just fine. I think that’s what really pisses him off–his ilk isn’t necessary.

Kittehserf
11 years ago

“X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X!”

gillyrosebee has gone X rated!

Or is this the X files?

:O

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

@ hellkell

It was in rather poor taste, no?

Kittehserf
11 years ago

hellkell – nor do many women hate men like Joe thinks we do.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

Cassandra: Super poor taste.

Kitteh’s: True. Actually, Joe pretty much hates everyone.

Auggie
Auggie
11 years ago

The negative affects of patriarchy on men is not the fault of feminism, in fact they help end those effects by fighting patriarchy.

Aaliyah
11 years ago

How much do you all want to bet that Joe will be back sometime in the next couple days with the exact same list, as if nobody responded to him? I’d take that bet…

Hey, cut him some slack. It’s not like he has all the straw in the world.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

Hmm, that’s an interesting theoretical path to take. Men who believe in the theory of male disposability – how many of them are men who’ve been rejected by both the women in their lives and society as a whole because their paranoid misogyny is so extreme that regular somewhat-sexist but not hateful guys back away with a confused frown going “don’t you think that’s a bit much?”.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

What I’m saying is, it would be a lot easier to believe in that theory if the people around you actually don’t seem to much care if you go away, especially if you’re too ragey to understand why you’re being rejected.

The First Joe
The First Joe
11 years ago

“Seriously, if you went to a room full of feminists and charged them with enforcing gender roles, they’d laugh you out of the building.”

Suuuure they would.
And they’d be massive hypocrites in doing so.
Feminism only wants to bust gender roles when it means upper middle class feminists getting better corporate / political jobs.
Which is why they’re always wanging on about wanting to be CEOs.
And never about wanting to be dustbin collectors or sewer workers.
There’s no interest in making sure feminists do their equal share of the really despised shit-shovelling jobs.

Funny that.

See, Kirby you think that I have to prove a point to you.
I don’t.

What I’m TELLING you is that masses of people (lots of them men, but not all) many of whom like me were raised by feminists, have seen through the propaganda, by the simple expedient of watching what feminists DO.
(Rather than listening to the mumb-jumbo feminists spout off. All that effort to redefine language and own the frame – comes to naught when people realise that not a word you say is to be trusted).

And what feminsts DO is complain, until they get granted power by the Bastards In Charge, and use that power to get more power. Rinse repeat.
Same as any other political pressure group.

That’s how an increasing number of people see feminism. Hence “backlash”.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

I’m curious about this new posting style. Is it meant to be a form of poetry? I mean the line breaks after each sentence thing.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

I can’t imagine men of Joe’s, Elam’s, JtO’s, etc., type come off very calm, reasoned, and fun to be around IRL.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

Joe: please stop taking your mommy issues out on us.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

Aw, Joe thinks all women are feminists.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

The only one I’ve actually seen speak is JtO, and his overall persona would send me running even if I couldn’t hear what he was saying. And, lest anyone think I’m being sexist there, GWW is similar but even worse. There’s just something off about both of them – too much rage simmering millimeters under the surface.

Auggie
Auggie
11 years ago

Got some citations, Joe?

The First Joe
The First Joe
11 years ago

Cassandra – “Joe left the revenge-brothels where single mothers will be placed out of his MRUtopia. I am disappoint.”

^Exhibit B: Slandering and Making Shit Up. Again.
I have never, ever at any point suggested anything like this.
See Kirby? This is the exact shit I was talking about.

Hellkell – “What Joe doesn’t realize is that very few men hate women like he does. Even if more men opted out, we’d get along just fine. I think that’s what really pisses him off–his ilk isn’t necessary.”

Except I don’t “hate women”. And let’s take a look at societies where men are opting out: Japan. Ohhh, their economy is fuuuuuucked. So you’re a two-for-two FAIL there.

And you have no idea what my “ilk” is.

As for “isn’t necessary.” Dingding!!
There we go! Thank you for revealing (again) your sexist attitude that men are only valuable according to their utility!!

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
11 years ago

@Joe:

See, Kirby you think that I have to prove a point to you.
I don’t.

Oh, you don’t have to do anything. I just assumed you were interested in convincing someone about something here. If you aren’t, that’s cool! I’ll just ignore you. 🙂

Which is why they’re always wanging on about wanting to be CEOs.
And never about wanting to be dustbin collectors or sewer workers.
There’s no interest in making sure feminists do their equal share of the really despised shit-shovelling jobs.

You obviously haven’t heard of things like the Women’s Mining Coalition

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

Does anyone have a link to Meller’s wanking about the Houses of Entertainment into which single mothers will be place? Because that’s an actual thing that an MRA talked about here at great length, Joe.

grumpycatisagirl
grumpycatisagirl
11 years ago

The media is still feminist-dominated, continuing to be so since the time that it ever was. I see. No.

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