So WF Price of The Spearhead, who responded to my previous post criticizing his and his commenters’ appalling reactions to the Cleveland abductions with thoughtfulness and maturity (by which I mean a bizarre and weirdly racist personal attack on a commenter here), has now taken offense to a darkly satirical piece the Onion ran in the wake of the revelations of what allegedly went on Ariel Castro’s house for the past 11 years.
The Onion piece wasn’t funny, exactly, nor was it meant to be; it was pretty clearly the raw reaction of someone reacting with appropriate horror to the details of Castro’s alleged crimes, which seem to surpass even the worst “man-hater’s” vision of male depravity. Price, rather missing the point, sees the Onion piece as simple “feminist man-hatred” and suggests that it proves his point all along: that patriarchy is a lie.
The Castro brothers were neither patriarchal nor privileged; they were low-life predators from the bottom of society. Not to say that low-class men are all bad people, either, but men without privilege are the most likely to commit crimes, for obvious reasons. …
The myth of male power and privilege is just that, and the Cleveland case is one more pebble on the mountain of evidence that exposes it for a lie.
Empowering men in their families will not lead to more crimes against women and girls, but fewer.
Huh. So I guess if we make all men rich, and order the police to stop responding to all “domestic disturbance” calls, all our problems will be solved!
Never mind that Ariel Castro seems to have lorded it over his now-dead ex when he was involved with her, reportedly brutalizing and terrorizing her and getting away with it in part because he threatened to further brutalize her if she testified against him. He may not have had much power in the wider world, but he certainly seems to have felt quite “empowered” in his dealings with women and girls, and the “justice” system didn’t provide any justice to his apparent victims, even before the kidnappings.
And never mind that Price continues to refer to the “Castro brothers” although the police are saying that Ariel Castro acted alone.
Despite not knowing the basic facts of the case, Price seems to like the idea of using cases like this one to push his antifeminist agenda. According to him, his attempts to use the case to “refute” the feminist idea that
male privilege [is] tied to abuse of women … really enraged them, because how dare I use one of “their” cases to point out that they are wrong. From their perspective, it should be a sacred feminist right to use these incidents against men as a political bludgeon so as to coerce more concessions, more power, etc. Some went so far as to accuse me of blaming women and feminists for the kidnappings themselves (rubbish), while a few others sent me some hate mail.
But you know, I’m going to keep it up, because they do not have the sole right to the narrative when convenient tragedies occur. …
Feminists will doubtless use examples of outrageous crimes in an effort to remove more men from their families, thereby creating both more victims and more criminals. They will use examples like the Castro brothers’ kidnapping whenever and wherever they can. We must stop them from doing so, and we must not be intimidated by their feigned moral outrage when we speak the truth about their agenda.
Dude. if you think the reactions people are having to the Cleveland abductions — or to the terrible things you and your commenters have said about them — are in any way “feigned,” then I can only suggest that you may have completely lost touch with your humanity.
Once again, the Spearhead’s commenters lived up to their past standards of moral monsterhood, continuing to put the blame for Ariel Castro’s crimes (and pretty much every other ill) on feminism and women in general. Here are some selections. You’ll notice the one wishing death on feminists is officially “well-liked” by the commentariat there.
The only vaguely encouraging thing in the entire discussion? That Dana’s call for urban genocide got a couple of downvotes. To the two Spearhead readers who don’t think wiping out an entire community of decent people because of the behavior of one man is a good idea, I would like to say “thanks.” And also suggest that maybe you should stop reading The Spearhead.
EDITED: Added paragraphs about Ariel Castro’s alleged brutality towards his ex, and clarification that only he has been charged, not his brothers.
Oh my goodness, the famous Pell? I don’t even have my makeup on!
Oooh, can we frighten him off by saying we’re not wearing makeup?
PELL MY FIFTY YEAR OLD SKIN IS UNTOUCHED BY MAKEUP TODAY
What? I don’t know, duct tape? Scouts build tables from it. Shouldn’t be too difficult to contain three people if you use enough.
And why didn’t she just run away? I don’t know, maybe the Daily Show was on, or there was cake in the oven, or it was RPG night or any other random reason you won’t accept.
You tell me something: Why does it *matter*?
Let’s, for one mindnumbing, eldritch hellscape of a second, accept your premise (the one you’re hinting at), that these three female people really “liked” their captivity. Okay.
… so what?
What, are you hinting that that’s appropriate for everyone? Good heavens man, why? Are you saying that based on this idea of 3 people, we should overturn millenia of cultural movement and chain everyone who identifies as a woman up in a basement? Good graces, Van, what?
Even if your mindmelting assertion is true, that somehow, they liked being captive, what does that prove other than these three people liked being captive? It tells us nothing more about the rest of the world. It tells us nothing about anything other than this tragedy.
Well, I mean, unless you’re the kind of person to make wild, sweeping claims based on isolated incidents and tend to use completely baseless generalizations about everyone based on the example of people whose situation is non-reproducible. In which case…. I guess.. carry on?
“My colleague Dr Pell”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh good, David must have deleted Pell’s last two contemptible comments just as I posted that.
First funny thing he’s ever said.
I thought “Uncle Monty” was pretty funny. Not intentionally, of course.
This time I think he was actually making a joke! On purpose! Pity he had to wrap it in transphobia and cheerleading for child abuse.
It wouldn’t be Pell if he hadn’t.
I wish I’d seen it.
You’re not really missing anything, pecunium. The “my colleague Dr Pell” was the only funny thing in it. The rest of it was homophobic and trans* phobic garbage.
Peter Van Writes: “Tell me something. In these slum houses, which you all know about, that are on top of each other how does 1 man manage to hold 3 females for 10 years? Last year one of these girls was in the back yard naked. Why didn’t she just run away? And recently when they decided to “escape” and were breaking the door weren’t they afraid? Oh yeah, Stockholm syndrome. That’s your reply to everything.” End Peter Van Quote.
Fine. You want someone to answer your questions. I’m qualified to answer because I was in a situation very similar to Cleveland. Unlike you, for which this hypothetical, for me it was reality. Her are you answers.
1 man manages to hold 3 females for ten years by torture, by rape, by virtue that he took them out of their lives through kidnapping, by testing them to see if they would try to escape. I tried to escape my captor once. I learned a brutal lesson about that. My captor warned me up front what would happen if I tried to escape. A few weeks later he set up a test. And I failed. Thirty years later I am physically still scarred from the punishment of my escape attempt. Emotionally I’m still scared from it.
I’ll tell you why Peter. Because these girls probably got what I got when they failed tests about trying to escape. I got hurt all night as punishment. Hurt in ways that are too graphic to post. Here is the bottom line. After a few hours of being punished. I didn’t want to live anymore. I wanted him to follow through on the threat of death for an escape attempt. Not because I had a death wish. But because the pain from the punishment was that awful. Anything from unconsciousness, to mercy, to death. Any of them were acceptable to me just to make it stop. Until you have been in that situation you don’t have a clue what that is like. I never wanted to go through that much pain, that much degradation, that much brutality again. There is nothing that escape had to offer that was worth the risk. I didn’t even consider escaping again after that. My escape was a fluke.
Why didn’t the naked girl just runaway? Abstract fear. Once someone has proven the ability to hurt you more than you can ever imagine. They are omnipotent. If someone proves to you they can kill you in a horrific and agonizing manner at their whim. Because of some infraction they feel you committed. Or just because they feel like it. That is devastating to the psyche. You think you could stand up to it Peter? You are delusional.
If it were as simple as just running away it would be as simple as just running away.
Were they afraid when they were breaking the door? Have you heard the witness statements from the two men Cordero and Ramsey? She was screaming like she was in a car accident, terrified and told them to hurry because if Castro came back he would kill them all. Does that sound like someone who could walk out when she just wanted to?
The fear in her voice on the 911 tapes begging for the police could not be more obvious. If you have listened to the tape and can’t hear her terror. Then you have serious issue with recognizing the feelings of others.
Was this Stockholm Syndrome? No. Not that you have a clue what Stockholm Syndrome is. But no it wasn’t. It was abstract terror. It was being physically held captive by chains. And emotionally being held by even stronger chains. Abstract fear of the consequences.
Unless you have been through this kind of event. You are no one to judge on whether these girls could have escaped. Your doubt of these women’s stories and your hypothesis is entirely baseless.
I had a dozen chances to escape. At least. And I didn’t. Not because I identified with my captor. Not because I had some secret sexual desire for what he was doing. I didn’t because I was that scared. I was that beaten down and my life had been reduced to nothing more trying to do exactly what he said and do absolutely nothing to risk provoking him. Escape, freedom,……. Those are conceptual terms. As a captive in the situation these girls were in. As I was in. Your focus as a victim in that kind of situation isn’t about the rest of your life. It is trying to survive moment to moment.
You want to make an argument that you are trying to make. Go ahead. You know nothing about what you are talking about on this topic. You have questions. Ask away.
You think you know what you are talking about? Knock yourself out. Your point is so vapid and vacant that eating it alive is nothing more than mid morning snack.
I
And there is a Harney and Sons in SoHo. I’ve been there. It’s nice. No scones, but good tea (and they always have three types available to try; and you can ask to taste any other [single] tea in the shop).
“Tell me something. In these slum houses, which you all know about, that are on top of each other how does 1 man manage to hold 3 females for 10 years? Last year one of these girls was in the back yard naked. Why didn’t she just run away? And recently when they decided to “escape” and were breaking the door weren’t they afraid? Oh yeah, Stockholm syndrome. That’s your reply to everything.”
No. Stockholm Syndrome is not our reply to everything — just because you heard it in the media a few times.
Why didn’t she just run away? Because he’d torture and rape her if she did. Or he’d do it to the other women, and she would be forced to listen while it’s going on. People don’t like being beaten, raped and forced to have miscarriages by being punched repeatedly in stomach and being starved. Christ. What the fuck? You haven’t questioned Castro’s motivations at all. What the hell is the matter with you? You feel indignant on behalf of Castro? Why? How the fuck do you go there?
Sorry everyone….all emotions in my post. I can’t help it…PeterVan’s comment was so insensitive, it triggered me.
Fortunately, PeterVan has been banned.
@jillbrenneman
That was an awesome response. And I hope you’re feeling better these days. I’m so sorry to hear you had to endure that torture.
Also, welcome! ^_^
In my view, he deserved every word. And your emotions definitely weren’t unreasonable. Hell, even if you weren’t triggered I’d still regard that as a reasonable response.
Shiraz that was your comment?
In any case, it feels trite, but I am so, so, sorry. That shouldn’t happen to anyone and the inhumanity Peter showed…disgusting.
Peter is Pell btw, and his moral compass is so skewed he’d end up at the South Pole if he tried heading north. No, that’d still be a functional compass…he’d slowly spiral around the earth claiming moral superiority to everyone while denying that he was utter lost.
Jill, I just can’t believe what you’ve been through. I’m so sorry, and sorry that shitheads like this come along to dismiss your experiences.
Jill, seconding what everyone’s said, and welcome.
Argenti, if Pell tried landing at the South Pole, the penguins would get him.
Thank you for the kind responses. No worries. I’ve recovered a lot from my captive days.
There have been people male and female who have dismissed my experiences since I spoke of them. Usually men. Not always. There points are always the same basic victim blaming motivated by an agenda in which they feel they are the victim of women.
I hurt for the women in Cleveland. Freedom really hasn’t even started for them. Escape from an event like that is misunderstood. It’s more a case that the cause of the pain has stopped. It is relearning how to live. They need a tremendous amount of support, of space, of time. They need people to understand. They did nothing to deserve this. Absolutely nothing. Anything they did to survive each individual minute was the right thing to do. They are incredibly strong to have survived. They owe no one explanations, they owe no one anything. People need to let them heal and honor that process. Recovery is different for everyone.
What is horrific is someplace. This is still going on. Someplace there is another Ariel Castro and his victims.
As for the victim blaming types that attach to this kind of event filled with their disbelief, their theories of conspiracy. People like that are sociopaths. They can’t feel empathy. They find reasons to blame the victims because the empathize with men like Ariel Castro. That about sums up who they are.
Again, thank you for your supportive posts and for reading mine.
It scares me to think of how many others haven’t been found.
The MRA response to this? Well, let’s just say it’s unlikely to make the mainstream take them any more seriously.
Jill, Thank you for sharing your experience; it can’t be easy to talk/write about. I’m very glad you survived that.
It scares me too to think about the others who haven’t been found.
@Aaliyah
I’m glad you found my response valuable. I’m always hesitant to come out publicly in situations like this because I don’t want my experiences to become the topic. Yet I haven’t ever found a better way to push back against victim blaming haters than to do it from first person. Victim blaming MRA’s love to argue theoretical. Harder to do when they are talking to a real human being who went through it.
I am feeling better. I’ve had long time to recover. It’s a process and always will be.
Truly my greatest wish is that women like Amanda, Gina and Michelle are able to find that they aren’t alone. That others went through this. That we reacted the same basic ways. We didn’t try to escape. We did everything our captors told to us to do because we were that terrified. But that there is no shame in fear. No shame in not resisting. There is no shame in anything that was done to survive that. They are alive today. That means any decision they made is something to honor, to cherish and that they did the right thing. If they ever read my words I hope they know they aren’t alone.
@katz
Thank you. Honestly it’s over. It has been for a long time. I”m ok from it. The shitheads that dismiss my experiences are par for the course. There is always one or two. They dismiss experiences from the safety of their computer or a conference room chair. They thik they are brave and would hold up in captivity. They are idiots. They don’t have a clue what they are saying. No one resists very long under torture. In many ways I found healing from reading about POW’s. These were trained military men who knew being a POW was a risk. Some who event went through survival classes taught by the military to get through being a POW. Yet they broke just as fast as I did. And they were grown men. Soldiers. I was a young girl when it happened. I had never even heard of the things I was exposed to until they happened. If POW’s broke just as quickly and reacted pretty much the same as I did. Then my shame, my guilt, my isolation became easier to move past. No one withstands torture very long. Idiots who victim blame would be the first to break. Only cowards blame rape, torture, captivity, etc. victims.
@Kittehserf
Thank you!
@Cassandra @cloudiah
Thank you. It scares me too knowing somewhere someone is captive. Someplace a predator is using the coverage to taunt and terrorize his victim. That anyone is going through this kind of thing is haunting.
If there is any one positive in this. It gives hope to those with loved ones that are missing that maybe they still are alive. And to hang on and never give up on them and that hope.