I know a lot of Man Boobz regulars have been dealing with a lot of rough stuff lately, so I’m opening this thread up to provide a (relatively) safe space to discuss them. No trolls allowed; any trolls who post here will be put on moderation and possibly banned. (Please notify me by email (my last name at well dot com) if there are inaproppriate comments; I get behind in reading comments here.)
It’s not unreasonable to wish that were the case, but I think it’s unreasonable to take on any of that yourself. Like I said, you aren’t her therapist, or even her sister, and bluntly I think you’ve got more than enough to deal with in your own life without getting caught up in what sounds like a futile effort on behalf of someone who isn’t remotely responsive and seems to have nil insight. Time for self-protection and cutting ties, I think. That’s one thing I do have experience of, and it was with a long-standing and close friendship. It isn’t fun but sometimes it’s all that will work.
Also, if you’re just acquaintances, what the hell is she doing these FEELINGS DUMPS on you for? That’s boundary crossing stuff right there, isn’t it?
Aaliyah — *blushes* thank you, helpful is like, my goal in life. As for your male friend, yeah, a talk in person where he can see you’re concerned may go better. And yes, you can only sugar coat it so much, but if you’re close, and express concern, and he trusted you (which he must, to have asked for the suicide hotline number) then he’s likely to at least listen. Don’t expect some radical 180, but close friends being concerned generally gets people to actually listen.
As for your female friend…I’m not sure even a trained therapist could make her less obsessive, and it certainly isn’t your job. I realize you care about her, and ok, she’s just too self-absorbed to get your gender right, but that TERF bit? Many of the smart trans* women i know on twitter have decided that fuck it, you express sympathy for that shit, you get the block button. Granted, twitter is less personal than FB, but the problem is the same — it’s like sympathizing with MRAs, there is something wrong with you if you have sympathy beyond “I hope they wake up and realize they’re part of a movement of assholes”.
Aso, story time, sort of. I’ve mentioned my gaslighting narcissist ex, idk if you’ve seen any of it though. Epically long story short, the all about me show, the sorta creepy behavior you don’t see because you care, the desire to try to help? It’s all how I got sucked in. If it comes complete with how awesome you are in some sense, that’s the *waves hands about* glue? hook? Like, narcissist target people who will feed their egos, people who need recognization, are ignored or degraded in other parts of their lives. Prop you up and then the mask falls and you don’t want to sever ties because you’re friends and they’re nice and they just need help. That they will always refuse, while insisting the rest of the world is wrong.
This all ringing bells? I know it’s hard, trust me, I know, but just sever all ties, do not reply, at all, ever. Eventually she’ll find someone new to feed her ego. Do not reply if she tries to tell you she’s gotten help or whatever. At best, you’re leaving her to her own devices, which, since she clearly refuses to accept help, is really all you can do; at worst, you’re saving yourself from being her next woe is me story.
Like, I’m coming off cold aren’t I? Compare how she treats you versus the other friend we’ve been discussing. Despite his issues, he sounds like a healthy friendship, so compare the two. Comparing toxic friends to more toxic family makes them seem good in comparison (lol, MRAs generally make my father seem good, TERF supporter? Well at least you aren’t advocating shooting trans* people, like no, just no, less toxic is still toxic)
—–
Why the fuck do I keep writing novellas? Sorry! (Lol, ask pecunium about my emails, this is tame in comparison…and still long, touché)
Meh, your comments aren’t novellas, Argenti. Going all epigrammatic isn’t that helpful for this sort of thing anyway.
To me this is “don’t let her take advantage of your kindness”, Aaliyah. I think the guy she’s obsessing over made exactly the right move by cutting contact with her.
Okay, I haven’t blocked her yet, but I’ve turned off chat for her so that I don’t appear online. I’m still hesitant about blocking her at this time because I feel really horrible when I suddenly stop talking to people. I’ll do it when I’m in a calmer, less anxious state of mind because right now it’s very hard.
Anyway, I’m not exactly sure if she’s still a TERF supporter because it was a long time since then and as far as I know she is fine with me being trans*, but still…it’s definitely not a good sign. Also, while this doesn’t bother me on a personal level as much as I’m not a sex worker, she is vehemently anti-prostitution, thinks that all casual sex is manipulative even when its consensual, and tends to see all prostitutes as a monolith (and you know the rest). That in addition to all of that dismissive, stalkerish, invasive stuff I mentioned about her.
She’s much different from my male friend. He’s the only friend I have in real life, and he’s one of the sweetest people I know. While I usually don’t receive advice or guidance from him, he always tells me that he’s willing to at least to listen to me vent, and he’s given me good advice before on calming down (just recently he helped me alleviate my anxiety attack). And he’s among the handful of people who accept me for being trans*; when I came out to him, he was immediately supportive. Lastly, even though he puts himself down all the time, he is one of the most intelligent and thoughtful people I know.
I think it’s clear where my priorities lie, as harsh as it is to say that.
That’s not harsh at all, Aaliyah. It’s seeing things clearly.
The more you tell us about this woman, the more I wonder why you’re talking to her at all. When you say, “I’m still hesitant about blocking her at this time because I feel really horrible when I suddenly stop talking to people” I would suggest this: if this person were an MRA, would you have any hesitation in cutting off contact? If she came out with horrible racist shit, ditto? I mean, what HAS she got to make contact with her worthwhile? She’s got seriously fucked up, bigoted ideas, she’s self-obsessed and at least a borderline stalker.
Would I be right in guessing you feel social pressure to be “nice” and not cut people off? That’s how I’m reading it; apologies if I’m wrong. You owe this person nothing and it’s not even a worthwhile acquaintanceship, let alone friendship, if you’re constantly the shoulder for her to cry on and she can’t even make the effort to remember your gender. Is it more stressful to cut her off, or to go on supplying what you know are lies about her chances of hitting on this poor bloke she’s chasing?
Even if you don’t block her, just put her mail in a filter so it goes straight to spam or trash or whatever. Just don’t answer her, don’t read her stuff. Seriously, I think she’s bad for you.
“Even if you don’t block her, just put her mail in a filter so it goes straight to spam or trash or whatever. Just don’t answer her, don’t read her stuff. Seriously, I think she’s bad for you.”
So much this. If you’re using gmail you can easily set up a folder for her emails and auto mark as read.
As for where your priorities lie…grumpy cat’s got this covered.
@Kitteh,
Truth be told, there’s nothing worthwhile about making contact with her because she’s emotionally draining among many other things. It’s just that, like you’ve already pointed out, I feel guilty about cutting people off so quickly because I feel pressured to be nice very often. And you’re right that cutting her off, even though it will be stressful, will still be better than experiencing more stress in talking to her (and even worse, never actually being able to help her in ways she needs help). It really is for the best/
Thank you very much for your help. Both you and Argenti have pushed me to block her from chat, and I needed that push. Even though I haven’t blocked her yet, I already feel like some weight has been lifted off my shoulders.
Grumpy Cat speaks truth!
So glad we’re helping!
Here’s some extra special social pressure: We, the society of Manboobz, herewith replace the Be Nice To Douchebags, Asshats and Generally Draining Pests imperative with the Fuck the Lot of Them imperative. This will download into your harddrive in 10 … 9 … 8 …
How’s about #NSACalledToTellMe to stop giving a fuck about people who don’t give a fuck about me.
And now I need to go pass out, the morning birds are up >.<
Morning, er, niters, Argenti! 😛
Hehe…yeah I’m definitely a doormat for unpleasant people sometimes.
[CN: domestic violence, graphic verbal sexual harassment]
When I was 12, I was actually fond of my sister’s ex even though he was a violent asshole who always shamed me for being chubby and invaded my personal boundaries. On one occasion he made jokes about me learning how to have sex (and holy shit was he explicit) while he KNEW that I was still confused and scared about puberty, sex, etc., and on another occasion he offered me a bowl of weed. He made me feel very uncomfortable and unsafe, but at the same time, I liked him; I felt like he was trying to be like an older sibling figure, and despite his horrible behavior, that image he gave off was comforting and encouraged me to ignore his assholery. (Now I have nothing but contempt for him, having realized how much of a jerk he was.)
Sometimes there are exceptions though. My father comes to mind first, and then there’s my mother’s ex, who tried to strangle her to death when she expressed a disagreement about how well his business was going. Let’s just say that he deserves to sleep on a bed of cactuses and rocks. Forever. How dare he try to put my mom through the same shit she endured while she was married to my dad. Even though this dude had a nice attitude when I met up, my opinion of him somehow changed in every single respect once I learned about his controlling and abusive behavior.
Hopefully one day I’ll be able to protect myself to the utmost degree and stop being a doormat for people who I really shouldn’t be helping. I think this situation with this young woman has taught me a lot so far, though.
I’m glad you’re getting something out of this, at least as a class in “how to get rid of creeps without feeling guilty”.
You know, it just struck me how self-blaming, or victim-blaming, the word “doormat” is. How bloody easy is it for someone to break lifelong conditioning from a bunch of controlling, abusive people? Even ordinary social pressure (ie. coming from people who aren’t controlling and abusive) is hard to shake off. This sort of thing, coming with built-in threats to your safety – that’s fucking hard.
Egad! Mum sneaked some Worcestershire sauce into the stew. No wonder it was hot! 😀
@Aaliyah:
I agree with Argenti Aertheri’s short, concise and epigrammatic post at 2:23. I think he could have expanded a little, included a few more examples, but on the whole, I agree with it and will ditto the “This is solid advice. Some people, through no fault of their own I guess, will suck any scrap of personality they can because they need it like a plant needs sunlight”.
Kittehserf at 3:43 has another good point! A little long, I guess, and it took me a while to chew through it, but I like it and if you take the time to dig through the comment, you will find many, many valuable lessons. Also at 4:15. “Doormat” is code for “Trained Differently”.
(You can flip the time indicators, I am being sassy)
But yeah. Thing is, most people default to “Sure, I’ll listen”, because it’s what you’ve been told, trained and taught. And there’s nothing really… wrong with it. Trying to take the time to listen is not bad. But boundaries are like castle gates, you should be allowed to snap your shut if you feel the need.
Now me? I’m an asshole. Utterly and completely, and I have no compunctions about saying “Sorry, my drying paint is more important to me than your current state of affairs, ta-ta” because I have no soul and my empathy is a shriveled, broken thing whimpering in the shadows of my mind. I got to this stage by practicing. Because it is tough. And you want to help, or, at least, you want to Not Be An Asshat. But let¨s review:
You’ve already gotten your answer and this entire post is jut me meandering on. Keep it in mind next time (the tips, not my meandering). Don’t discard people on a whim and the slightest provocation, but being… willing? To walk away at any time also gives you the option of staying, by deciding, this is where I’ll stay. Not out of guilt, pressure or precedence but choice. Good skill to learn, that.
@Thread:
Everything’s going to be all right, right? This is all just a minor downturn before the inevitable second wind, right? I can sort it all out and get it together and do the thing and the stuff and wake up in the morning and not want to scream until my throat is hoarse, right? Yes. Yes I can. Upwards and onwards.
Just… ugh. Sometimes… the stuff it’s… Stuffy. You are all lovely people. There’s no reason to state that here, but hey, have a reminder.
Have a Scented Fucking Candle, Fibinachi. Guaranteed to clear stuffiness. 🙂
aaliyah
Can you spell manipulation? The only reason she’s so intent on continuing her relationship with you is because you’re the last person left in the world who allows her to go on with this stuff.
(I did get a hint of sexual hang ups driving her to this. If she thinks sexual “promiscuity” or even serial monogamy is so distasteful, she’s backed herself into a corner if she’s slept with this guy. She thinks she has to continue this relationship and. only. this. relationship, otherwise she becomes a Gasp! slut by the silly standard she’s set for herself. In the end, only a therapist can help her, and only if she lets them.)
@Kitteh
You know, it just struck me how self-blaming, or victim-blaming, the word “doormat” is. How bloody easy is it for someone to break lifelong conditioning from a bunch of controlling, abusive people? Even ordinary social pressure (ie. coming from people who aren’t controlling and abusive) is hard to shake off. This sort of thing, coming with built-in threats to your safety – that’s fucking hard.
I know what you mean. That is a problematic term now that I think about it. And besides that conditioning you’ve mentioned, there’s also my self-loathing, which makes all of that even more difficult to deal with.
@Fibinachi
You’re absolutely right. And not only is it a good skill to learn, but it’s also one I’ll have to learn anyway, because eventually I’ll have to estrange myself from a large number of people once I tell them I’m trans*. Eh, well, I guess that’s not really voluntary, but at least by learning this skill I can perhaps better cope with having to cut myself off from other people (although the fact that many of these people are family members is going to make it even harder for me to deal with).
Anyway folks, I apologize for being so stubborn earlier. It was probably annoying to keep hearing “But that will make me feel guilty!” from me over and over again. Thanks for all the help, though.
Huh, I do have those apple scented candles in the bathroom I put in there to annoy my roommate as payback for his poetry.
TO THE FIBI-MOBILE! 1-2-3-5! Thank you for the reminder, unintended as it was.
I know how that feels. We used to have 3 cats, and despite the cuteness overload, it wasn’t very pleasant sometimes.
Fibinachi — just a reminder, if you see it, that my pronouns of choice are ze/zir. I’m not offended or anything, only bothers me when it’s intentional (eg, NWO, Joe) but yeah, since I figure you just forgot, consider this a friendly reminder 🙂 Thanks!
We used to have five cats, and I wish, wish, wish we could have more than two now!
I found a cool and very simple pattern today – I rather fancy trying it in the rose pink yarn I made my cable beret in, though it’s finer than the pattern calls for. I might add a cable pattern along the neck/front edge, for a bit of weight and detail. What do y’all think, if you’ve any opinion? 🙂
http://www.lionbrand.com/patterns/60648A.html
@Argenti Aertheri :
Oh, that’s true. I wrote “He”:
Sorry, that slipped my mind – it was not an intentional snipe. I appreciate the correction and will stick to it from now on.
Kind of a terrible post in all, now I read through it again. Curse the lack of editing, I can’t pointlessly go back and correct myself. 😀
@Kittehserf:
Sounds like a good idea, but I don’t seem able to access the pattern without a free account, so I can’t quite figure what it is you’re trying make… although rose pink yarn for anything must look quite dandy.
So good luck!