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off topic open thread shut up shut up shut up TROOOLLLL!!

Thread for Hostile Visitors to Endlessly Rehash the Issues They Have With Feminist Research or Whatever

Hey, hostile visitors! Do you have an opinion about, for example, Mary Koss’ rape research? Do you want to discuss it even though the topic has not actually come up by itself in any of the threads and none of my recent posts really have much to do with the specifics of anyone’s rape research? Well, from now on you can discuss it here with anyone who wishes to follow you to this thread.

Added bonus: If you continue to try to discuss it in other threads you’ll be banned!

This also applies to future derailers riding hobbyhorses of their own having nothing to do with Koss.

Happy discussing!

Note: If you wish to discuss the topics at hand, you know, topics directly related to my posts and/or to what other people are discussing and that aren’t, you know, personal hobbyhorses of yours that involve long screeds and various things that you’ve probably already cut and pasted into the comments sections of various other websites until you were banned from them for endless derailing and general asswipery, feel free to remain in the original threads.

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LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: kirbywarp

Shit, we lost a prime fic opportunity. PEMRA/NGL pirate slash AU!

genderneutrallanguage
7 years ago

@aaliyah

Bravo. You are getting so close to a real workable position. There is bigotry against men, bigotry against women and benefits for men. Now just include some benefits for women, and we can actually have a conversation. You will have recognized all four major factors in gender equality.

(institutionalized sexism speaks to affect and prevalence, not existence. These affects are important once the actual conversation starts, but are not important in starting the conversation)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I know! I thought of one who might upset them even more than Dworkin.

Susan Brownmiller (rape). Do novelists count? If so, Alice Walker* (race AND rape AND class AND queer issues.

* Who identifies as a womanist, not a feminist, so we’re paying tribute to the great MRA tradition of appropriation by suggesting her.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

@LBT:

I think we missed an opportunity for a little hard-core smug. Seriously, I’m drowning in this self-importance!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I demand that this shipping include parrots, grog, and a sword fight.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: CassandraSays

My husband asks if you mean sword in the Freudian sense.

RE: Kirbywarp

Shoulda referred to one of them’s eyes as ‘jeweled orbs’ or something. Yo, NGL, what color are your eyes? I need them for REASONS.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

How about split the difference and have the sword fight be a seduction scene, so that your fic is inclusive of PUA traditions too?

becausescience
becausescience
7 years ago

Gnl sounds really confused. He started off talking about parity and now he’s talking about parrots. No wonder people didn’t want him in office.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Parity, parrots…maybe the next word is planets?

Fade
7 years ago

You can attack the straw feminist or you can slather yourself in bigotry.

You know, there are options where people just don’t agree with you. Shocking. I wish your mummy had told you earlier.

Misandry is real.

my opinions on gnl

)Sexism against men 2)Sexism against women 3)Sexism that benefits women 4)Sexism that benefits men

sexism against men: the negative effect of the patriarchy on men is not misandry
sexism against women: this happens
Sexism that benefits women: oxymoron
sexism that benefits men: I think you mean patriarchy

Translation: ”I have no idea what I’m arguing here, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to admit it.”

dang, that’s like all of our trolls summarized in one sentence

Also, all of that that troll to english dictionary had me cracking up!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I was not previously aware that bigotry was a sandwich spread that one could slather oneself in. Is that why angry men keep telling us to make them sandwiches?

becausescience
becausescience
7 years ago

Hey genderboringasfuck, I asked you the following questions a few pages ago and you never answered them. I thought you cared about reducing workplace deaths?

“What are you actually doing to reduce workplace fatalities? What specific policy initiatives do you support? How will you respond to the inevitable complaints by your mra buddies that women in dangerous jobs are taking those jobs away from men, especially in our current and ongoing economic situation when jobs are harder to come by?”

Where are your policies, Mr. politician wannabe?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

GNL, do yourself a favor and do a little reading. You really need to get a basic grasp of what feminists mean when they talk about privilege and patriarchy. I’ll help you get started.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: CassandraSays

How about split the difference and have the sword fight be a seduction scene, so that your fic is inclusive of PUA traditions too?

You want it? YOU GOT IT!

NGL whipped out his long, throbbing rapier of Sicilian steel. “Yarr, matey, your parrot cannae save you this time!”

PEMRA unleashed his own manly sabre, hard, unyielding, but somehow… gentle. “Aha! I don’t NEED my parrot to swab YOUR poop deck, ya lily-livered landlubber!”

Sabre met rapier, eyes met, and NGL and PEMRA knew that whoever lost… both of them would win.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

@LBT:

Briznecko
Briznecko
7 years ago

Looks like GNL is using oodles and oodles of smugness to hide the fact zie doesn’t really know very much Feminism. STOP POLLUTING WITH TEH SMUG, GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND. GOOGLE WILL HELP.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: kirbywarp

Not gonna lie, the silliest fun thing I’ve enjoyed since my term on T is that my voice has now dropped to a point that I do a MEAN George Takei ‘Oh MY’ now. I might still look like I’m twelve, but fuck it, I can pull a Takei!

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

My brother, the chipmunk, has taken over the living room. So, as I’m banished to teh outer realms (as my room, where I’d be anyways), let me attempt to sort GNL.

1) Clearly hyperbolic statement that no one would agree with
2) People call bullshit on the assumption that anyone would agree with that
2b) point out that he’s set up a straw feminist
3) aha! You proves point by disproving it!
4) dafuq?!
5) your cognitive dissonance is slathered on so think that you can’t even see it!

Dude, that we don’t agree with your straw feminists proves nothing besides that they are straw feminists.

And I’m still waiting for your thoughts on whether we should stop burning dinosaurs before the planet turns into venus. (Come on people, someone bite please!)

Briznecko
Briznecko
7 years ago

Argenti, I’m sure sending GNL to Feminism 101 will somehow prove is “point” again. Like…uh, strawfeminism is a real thing because there isn’t an MRA101?

I got nothing, I completely don’t understand the smug garbage GNL is shitting all over this thread.

Aaliyah
7 years ago

@Fade

sexism against men: the negative effect of the patriarchy on men is not misandry
sexism against women: this happens
Sexism that benefits women: oxymoron
sexism that benefits men: I think you mean patriarchy

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

genderneutrallanguage
7 years ago

“What are you actually doing to reduce workplace fatalities? What specific policy initiatives do you support? How will you respond to the inevitable complaints by your mra buddies that women in dangerous jobs are taking those jobs away from men, especially in our current and ongoing economic situation when jobs are harder to come by?”

Where are your policies, Mr. politician wannabe?

Well I’m not doing much of anything actively about workplace fatalities overall. I am working for more parity and equality. I’ve submitted several proposals for Male only scholarships for Nursing and early childhood education programs. There are Female only scholarships for male dominated STEM fields. This is a great idea. Nursing and Early childhood education are dramatically more gender segregated than STEM fields are. Changing incentives is a much better idea than implementing quotas. Getting more men into safer fields like teaching and nursing will do wonders for equality and parity. Less men in dangerous jobs means more room for women. More men in safe jobs means greater parity in work place deaths.

Wow, look at that, intersectionality. It’s amazing how that works. I expect that as more women get into dangerous jobs, feminism will step up to protect women, and make the work place safer for every one as a side affect.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

There isn’t an MRA 101? Well that sounds specifically like a problem for MRAs. They might want to include how violence, and particularly terrorism, are never justified. And not, you know, host Thomas Ball’s manifesto.

I’d honestly love to see them come up with a 101 page that showed any signs of actual empathy as opposed to “all about me”…note, I mean empathy for other groups, the way the link above mentions issues like the racism MoC face.

Oh and whomever asked if my gravatar is the Cheshire Cat, yes, yes it is.

genderneutrallanguage
7 years ago

“Dude, that we don’t agree with your straw feminists proves nothing besides that they are straw feminists.”
The argument that you make to disprove the strawfeminist are the aruments that I want to make, but will get shouted down if I actually do make. Is this so very hard to understand?

Briznecko
Briznecko
7 years ago

…that’s not how intersectionality works. Seriously, you should Google or head over to the ever-friendly Feminism 101 blog.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: genderneutrallanguage

There are Female only scholarships for male dominated STEM fields. This is a great idea. Nursing and Early childhood education are dramatically more gender segregated than STEM fields are.

I was under the impression that STEM fields pay much better than nursing and early childhood education. I think it may be a class issue on top of gender dynamics–women are not only socialized to be more prone to getting those types of jobs, they pay less, and men who can make more doing something else very well might go for a job they like less that makes more.

I honestly think scholarships for men would be less useful than making those jobs better-paying.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

…you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Intersectionality — white women have privilege over MoC, at least in some circumstances, because of how racism and sexism interact. Trans* WoC have it worse than cis WoC, white trans* women, and trans* men in general (oh hai murder rate that’s ten times the national average)

Not intersectionality — anything that’s discussing only one axis of oppression. Be it sexism as in this case, or any other conversation limited to one axis.

Why? Because you can’t get the full picture without noting the various groups. Which is why I, and others here, keep saying “white cis men”…though to be fair that should be “white cis het men who are not disabled”

Briznecko
Briznecko
7 years ago

The argument that you make to disprove the strawfeminist are the aruments that I want to make, but will get shouted down if I actually do make. Is this so very hard to understand?

I GOT IT! I FIGURED IT OUT! GNL isn’t really making those straw feminist arguments, zie is using them to make Manboobzers spell out why such arguments are wrong so zie doesn’t have to develop those skills all on zie’s own! GNL isn’t being a disengenuous semantic fuck, zie’s just lazy.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Did he just say he’s employing gaslighting “I know what you think better than you do” tactics? Or am I just too tired?

Briznecko
Briznecko
7 years ago

Blast. That top bit is quoted from GNL.

gelar
gelar
7 years ago

This thread must be some weird corridor in the Argument Clinic.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

She doesn’t seem to be here right now, but we have a commenter who went into nursing from a STEM field! Maybe when she gets here she can bring the lulz by explaining why there are more scholarships for STEM fields.

And then dudebro can declare that we’re proving his point by agreeing with him/not agreeing with him again. Basically whatever we say it’s proving his point, because…

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

his is a great idea. Nursing and Early childhood education are dramatically more gender segregated than STEM fields are. Changing incentives is a much better idea than implementing quotas. Getting more men into safer fields like teaching and nursing will do wonders for equality and parity. Less men in dangerous jobs means more room for women. More men in safe jobs means greater parity in work place deaths.

Does he really think that nursing is a safer job than STEM? Because his ideas are so poorly thought out, this is what I’m thinking. Getting punched by a drunk in the ER is SO MUCH SAFER than STEM. So much.

GNL, way to ignore historical reasons women have been shunted into nursing and education.

Now wonder you didn’t win any political office.

PARROTS and EQUALITY!!!!

reginaldgriswold
reginaldgriswold
7 years ago

LBT, that’s exactly right. And when you look inside fields like nursing and K-12 teaching, you still see breakdowns of largely women being in the lower-tier positions and men being in supervisory or managerial positions, and that men in those fields make more money than women in those fields:

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/02/25/male-nurses-make-more-money/

The issue isn’t that men need to be incentivized financially. The issue is changing the culture of considering some jobs “women’s work”. From this piece by one of the men’s nursing groups, a lot of men felt pushback from family or other people about nursing because it’s women’s work:

http://aamn.org/docs/meninnursing2005survey.pdf

In that piece, they also identify another reason that men don’t like nursing: it’s fairly low pay for high-stress and low prestige (“just about bedpans”, one interviewee said). Several comments identify that men are socialized more for “top” jobs like doctors.

In other words, the gender ratio we see in nursing is affected by patriarchy. Just not in the way gnl thinks it is. SURPRISE! Idiots don’t undertand the world.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Teaching hasn’t been looking so safe either in recent years.

genderneutrallanguage
7 years ago

“I honestly think scholarships for men would be less useful than making those jobs better-paying.”

Wow, I didn’t think this was even possible on this thread. Honest and reasonable disagreement. No insults or shaming. No veiled threats. No insinuations of some all powerful force that benefits men. Hell there is even agreement on the basic concept. “Less useful than” at least implies that it is a useful thing. It’s only taken 4 days to get a real response. I’m thinking it only happened because the radicals are too busy trying to make my boyfriend jealous.

So, I disagree that raising the wages would be better. It would cost much more. A full ride scholarship cost about $15,000 /year. To increase pay enough to really draw people in your looking at MILLIONS every year (if you look goably, not at a state level this would be hundreds of billions). Offering thousands of men full ride scholarships costs less (and I would like to see about 1,000 so the cost would be much less) Offering the scholarships will also help correct the gender imbalance in higher ed over all. It will be active, not passive, in breaking down gender stereotypes. With the stereotypes in place it just make these better jobs for women. Offering male only scholarships cost less, will improve gender equality in many workplaces, will break down gender stereotypes, improve parity in higher education, and break down that thought barrier that the only way to improve gender equality is to help women.
I don’t think that raising the wages of teachers will do any of that. It will help reduce the wage gap, and that would be a good thing. That is not the goal I’m trying to achieve.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

You don’t think things through very well, GNL.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

It’s only been 4 days? Feels like he’s been here for 4 years. Time does not fly when you’re bored.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
7 years ago

Another hazard that nurses face is the exposure to infectious diseases, like MRSA or tuberculosis. They can get bloodborne diseases from needle stick injuries. They also risk straining their backs by handling patients in hospitals without lifting supports, or when they are too busy to get to use the lifting supports.

Another thing is that in the time that I worked at a daycare, never once did a man ever apply for a job. They probably didn’t want a job that paid $6 an hour when they could get hired at a factory and get $15 an hour. But if you want to make scholarships to try to attract men to pink collar professions, go ahead. Just understand that it’s not women keeping them out, but that men don’t want them.

genderneutrallanguage
7 years ago

“Does he really think that nursing is a safer job than STEM?”
Thanks for pointing this out, I forgot to include it. By making scholarships, not better wages, men that couldn’t otherwise afford the costs of Universities could attend. Having scholarships isn’t going to draw men from STEM fields, but from the unskilled labor force.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Way to miss my point, jackass.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

And GNL yet again ignores the role of race — http://thesocietypages.org/graphicsociology/2012/09/04/race-and-gender-in-higher-education/

Note that the largest gender gaps are in the least represented races. And I’d assume that since the population is basically a 50/50 gender split, that 10% over representation of women means 55% women (because 10% of 50 is 5) as in, only for minorities is the gap more than a 60/40 split, and the increase in degrees going to women appears to be slowing.

And, muc as he’ll have a fit about me bringing up race, there are already scholarships for racial minorities.

genderneutrallanguage
7 years ago

“And GNL yet again ignores the role of race”
Yes, I’m making comments on a blog, not writing a disertation. There is not the time or space to be an all inclusive everything. Race is a factor. Gender is a factor. The fact that race is a factor does not mean that gender is not a factor. It’s that intersectionality thingy that you keep asserting can’t be applied to men. You need to focus on the racial factors because the gendered factors disprove the very foundations of your belief structures. I suggest “The bomb on the Brain” series by Stefbot on YouTube.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

You write incoherent trash, GNL. You managed to contradict yourself in one paragraph, nice work.

serrana
serrana
7 years ago

I suggest “The bomb…

We don’t need to be educated, thanks.

serrana
serrana
7 years ago

Also, I suggest some Pink Floyd on youtube. What?

genderneutrallanguage
7 years ago

“We don’t need to be educated, thanks.”
What you really mean is that you have the one and only truth, the absolute truth. You are all knowing and have considered all factors, no other input could possibly change your mind…..And you wonder why Atheists have problems with Femthiesits.

genderneutrallanguage
7 years ago

“You managed to contradict yourself in one paragraph, nice work.”

How. I see no contradiction in my statements. Please explain.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

It must be so tiring, maintaining yourself in a constant state of frothing rage and indignation. I wonder how much he spends per month on coffee.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

I don;t think he’s indignant so much as ignorant. He has zero shaming in letting that hang out.

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