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off topic open thread shut up shut up shut up TROOOLLLL!!

Thread for Hostile Visitors to Endlessly Rehash the Issues They Have With Feminist Research or Whatever

Hey, hostile visitors! Do you have an opinion about, for example, Mary Koss’ rape research? Do you want to discuss it even though the topic has not actually come up by itself in any of the threads and none of my recent posts really have much to do with the specifics of anyone’s rape research? Well, from now on you can discuss it here with anyone who wishes to follow you to this thread.

Added bonus: If you continue to try to discuss it in other threads you’ll be banned!

This also applies to future derailers riding hobbyhorses of their own having nothing to do with Koss.

Happy discussing!

Note: If you wish to discuss the topics at hand, you know, topics directly related to my posts and/or to what other people are discussing and that aren’t, you know, personal hobbyhorses of yours that involve long screeds and various things that you’ve probably already cut and pasted into the comments sections of various other websites until you were banned from them for endless derailing and general asswipery, feel free to remain in the original threads.

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Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

15 pages into the first link and I have one comment…so the fuck what? So far this is a surprisingly well rounded explanation of research issues in studying rape prevalence. Yeah, I bit of the legalese parts are just plain wrong, but I’ve just spent 15 pages reading about question order and the importance of comparable definitions when doing meta-analysis.

Lovely? The only part that remotely relates to Tamen’s apparent point is that Koss wants to put forced to penetrate as a different category than rape. But she’s got issues just using “sexual assault” because that’s something something not really the same as rape and legally it is the same and but that’ll include cld sexual abuse!

So yeah, she needs to sort her damned definitions, but I’m not getting to the part where this matters as more than an exercise is why she’s right to say that precise definitions are needed for different studies to be comparable.

Also, the iPad keyboard is tiny when using it in portrait mode.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Done! First off, her main thing, like, 20+ pages of this, is an amazingly detailed review of the research issues involved in studying rape (eg issues surrounding the sensitive nature of the questions; the issue of questions, plural, or one gateway question; etc)

To Tamen’s thing about the definitions…

She’s using rape instead of sexual assault because of the seriousness of the offense. Ok, fine, as long as your definitions are consistant use whichever. And the meaning of rape, in this concept is “sexual intercourse, cunnilingus, fellatio, anal intercourse, or any other intrusion, however slight, of any part of a person’s body, but emission of semen is not required.” Per the citation, that’s the Michigan legal defition when this was written, and she specifically says it is a gender neutral definition.

…and then goes on to exclude men being made to pentrate, children, and, in the very last bits, where she states how this research should be done, anything without force. So yeah, when she makes her recommendations for future study, she requests that rape mean cases with force, nonconsent, penetration, and statutory age.

As for that last quote in Tamen’s comments, this one —

Specifically, the acts experienced by men lacked the level of force and psychologically distressing impact that women reported (Struckman-Johnson, 1988; Struckman-Johnson & Struckman-Johnson, 1994).

Yeah that thing in parathesises? It’s called a citation. That load of bull is from Struckman-Johnson (and Struckman-Johnson…at a guess, the 1994 study was done by a married couple, that’s how the XYZ & XYZ citations usually go). So yeah, she agrees or she’d not be citing it in the context it’s in, but her very next sentence says that attempted rapes should be a separate category for clarity.

And Tamen is straight up lying about the CDC’s “made to penetrate” being a category unique to men, give me 2 min to pull that up, I should have that data on the mac.

(Autocorrect that’s mac as in macintosh, not Mac as in Rogan’s husband…we only capitalize people! [Hi Rogan and Mac et al!])

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

I don’t still have it! While I’m downloading that, yet again, may I say that any definition that sticks to the legal definition(s) will inherently require penetration of the body of the victim? This is an issue with the legal definition, not the definitions researchers use (and certainly isn’t somehow Koss’s fault that legal defitions still suck)

marinerachel
marinerachel
7 years ago

Is the fine gentleman in that image wearing drawers at all?

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Warning, incoming wall o’ text definitions from the CDC data

Tamen — “CDC apparently found it inappropriate to call it rape – or rather they think it’s an unique male victimization that is separate from rape.”

See 2, the italic part for that claim. As for why it isn’t all lumped under rape, see above about the legal definitions. (Which do suck)

How NISVS Measured Sexual Violence

Five types of sexual violence were measured in NISVS. These include acts of rape (forced penetration), and types of sexual violence other than rape.

1) Rape is defined as any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Rape is separated into three types, completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.

— Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.

— Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.

2) Being made to penetrate someone else includes times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.

— Among women, this behavior reflects a female being made to orally penetrate another female’s vagina or anus.

— Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; orally penetrating a female’s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen.

3) Sexual coercion is defined as unwanted sexual penetration that occurs after a person is pressured in a nonphysical way. In NISVS, sexual coercion refers to unwanted vaginal, oral, or anal sex after being pressured in ways that included being worn down by someone who repeatedly asked for sex or showed they were unhappy; feeling pressured by being lied to, being told promises that were untrue, having someone threaten to end a relationship or spread rumors; and sexual pressure due to someone using their influence or authority.

4) Unwanted sexual contact is defined as unwanted sexual experiences involving touch but not sexual penetration, such as being kissed in a sexual way, or having sexual body parts fondled or grabbed.

5) Non-contact unwanted sexual experiences are those unwanted experiences that do not involve any touching or penetration, including someone exposing their sexual body parts, flashing, or masturbating in front of the victim, someone making a victim show his or her body parts, someone making a victim look at or participate in sexual photos or movies, or someone harassing the victim in a public place in a way that made the victim feel unsafe.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

This brilliant. Let’s see if they can do it. I think derailing is half the fun for them.

EB
EB
7 years ago

LOL

I read you articles on Warren Farrel, and just about everything else. Fella, you have certainly stuck an IV for the Kool Aid since drinking it is obviously no longer enough for you.

Warren Farrel still must smile knowing that your refusal to answer anything substantial he has said or written, and still two decades later take his words out of context is a tacit admission that you have nothing to really say that refutes his arguments. Essentially, like everything else you have against the MRM, its “icky” because you don’t like what it says about your sacred calf feminism, so say something messed up, make a highly feminist false accusation (you know you won’t pay for it right?), and then go play with your cats. I really enjoy how you call men like Vladek Filler “alleged” even though he has been exonerated beyond all doubt. If I were you, for feminism’s sake, I would have denounced Mary Kellet for what she is. We both know you can’t.

Face it, women trap men all the time. She can threaten legal action against him, accuse him of rape, get pregnant after having had sex with him while he was drunk. So if he says he does not want to have sex with her and leaves, she calls the cops, and as we all know he at least gets arrested and a rape accusation on his record. Don’t tell me it does not happen, it happened to me on two occasions. I walked out, and they both threatened me with that hellish nightmare. Personally, I can think of better ways of handling rejection.

The reverse, well, a woman can have an abortion (funny how “it” is an “it” when she terminates the pregnancy, but a child when a man does not want to pay support to you little monsters). She can give “it” away for adoption and never pay support when the couple asks for TANF benefits, and get child support, government funded education, health care, and cash payments all for dumping her soon to be ex when she does keep “it.” Talk about incentive to have kids and divorce after one designer baby or two huh?

Convenient you only claim it is rape when a woman does not want it, what about the man the morning after? That’s right, he wanted to have sex with her anyways right? Men are dogs. When a man is drunk, and a woman has sex with him he deserves whatever consequences come his way (unwanted pregnancy, waking up to a “cat-lover the morning after in shear disgust); but when a woman was drunk and changes her mind, she has a whole myriad of consequences she can lob at him, up to and including prison.

How is it not rape when a man “regrets” the decision after he “wakes up” the morning after? How is it that only men are held to personal responsibility for their own drunken agency, but women get a pass?

I am sure all of you will not answer this. Have fun deleting this chump bucket. We all know this won’t be on here for long.

genderneutrallanguage
7 years ago

So when men say “Parity is good” it’s like jumping up and down on a table. When women say “parity is good” it’s all social justice and rainbows. I call bull shit. Wanting parity in education, criminal sentencing, suicide rates, child custody, child support, workplace deaths and many other issues is no more like throwing a tantrum than wanting parity in pay or the few aspects of education men are still dominant in.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Chili study on men — “Our survey items did not differentiate between instances of victimization where men were penetrated vs. where they performed a penetrative act themselves that they perceived as victimization; these latter instances, while potentially distressing and harmful, do not meet the Chilean legal definition of rape.”

And thus they called it forced sex.

So yeah, after 50 pages of Tamen’s little rant, it all boils down to legal definitions.

Fade
7 years ago

Okay…. ^ you’ve officially lost me.

Also, parity in education: Are you talking about the fact that often times women do more school than men? Because if you are, WOMEN DO MORE SCHOOL TO GET PAID THE SAME AMOUNT THAT MEN WITH LESS SCHOOL DO!!?!?!?

So if you get parity in pay, you’ll get parity in education.

Re: suicide rates. I’m not sure, did someone link to a study earlier that showed women and men attempted suicide at the same rate, but men succeeded more often?

Child support: Is determined based on pay, so equal pay will help that, too.

Workplace deaths: stop keeping women out of dangerous work.

Criminal sentencing: Ugh, is this appropriated MoC’s higher incarcement rate again?

Child custody: So help get rid of the assumption that women are natural caretakers. Also, when men ASK FOR custody, they get it 50 percent of the time

OMG ITS LIKE ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS CARE ENOUGH ABOUT THEIR KIDS TO ASK!!!

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

*sigh* genderneutrallanguage, can you hold your horses a minute? I’m still working on Tamen’s claims!

Yours are shorter though, so here ya go —

Jumping up and down demanding gender parity =/= addressing the causes of lack of parity

That is, sperm jacking makes you look ridiculous when the rest of us are already talking about reproductive coercion and sexual assault via coercion. Child custody and support? First, I’ve yet to see MRM data that was actual data and not cherry picking (and oh boy do I like frisking cherry picked data, don’t do it). Second, a good part of the problem (besides a very basic one that I *gasp* will get you data for in just a second) is that women are still expected to be the primary caregiver. Want to guess how feminists feel about that?

Shit, I said sexual assault, not rape! Tamen come yell at me quick, so I can cite you CT statues that have no crime of rape per se but rather degrees of sexual assault. Definitions, they matter.

pecunium
7 years ago

Tamen: I haven’t written that drivel and I find it absolutely galling and dishonest that you attempt to pass it off as a quote by me,

You’re right, I mistook you for Derick. Mistakes happen. It’s sort of amusing (to me at least) that you are in such a dudgeon because of that. The assumption of ill-intent is funny too.

You know, I really do wish I could bring up some studies which doesn’t use something to that effect as a working definition of rape. Do you know of any?

What?

I asked you a question, about your thesis (that Koss makes the CDC data aggregation illegitimate) and you expect me to what… cull every paper in the world to disprove you?

Defend your argument or concede.

CDC apparently found it inappropriate to call it rape – or rather they think it’s an unique male victimization that is separate from rape.

Where? What is the, “official CDC Definition of Rape” (and where it is it mandated that all studies use it).

The Crime Survey of England and Wales (CSEW) does not even bother to include it in the survey

And this is Mary Koss fault because?

There is no One True Feminist Idea of anything. But Mary P Koss’ having an operational definition and arguing for it academically in peer reviewed journals and very possibly on advisory boards for federal agencies who does conduct national surveys on sexual victimization and publishes reports on the results are a tad bit more influental

Again you have proposed a thesis. Prove it. This, “Mary Koss is EVIL!!!! becauase I think she might be doing bad things, because in a paper she wrote a long time ago she used a shitty operational definition (to which I’m not linking; so no chance to look at the context for you) pile of shit is… a pile of shit.

If you think it’s going to persuade anyone you need more than handwavium to support it.

Given the way you misread the explation of the working defintion (eliding the these acts fail to meet legal definitions of rape that are based on penetration of the body of the victim.), and impute motive (that Koss thinks men being raped isn’t a big deal, or something), and ignore the working terms in the Chile paper.

The questionnaire asked participants to respond “yes” or “no” to the items listed below regarding SV since age 14. “Sex” was defined in the survey instructions as referring to vaginal, oral or anal sex.*

(a) Someone tried to make me have sex by using threats, arguments or physical force, but this did not happen.

(b) Someone forced me to have sex using physical force.

(c) Someone forced me to have sex using threats or other verbal pressures.

(d) Someone had sex with me after I had been drinking or using drugs, and I was not in a condition to be able to stop what was happening.

(e) Aside from the types of sexual contact already mentioned, have you experienced any unwanted sexual experiences, such as forced kissing or grabbing?

Items (b) and (c) above were adapted from the Conflict Tactics Scale – 2 (Straus et al., 2003). Items (a) and (d) were included following the Sexual Experiences Survey (Koss et al., 2007); the wording was adapted for consistency with items (b) and (c).

An affirmative response to (b), the most severe form of SV, was coded as physically-forced sex. Affirmative responses to (c) and (d) were coded, re spectively, as verbally-forced sex and forced sex while intoxicated; an affirmative response to (a) was coded as attempted forced sex through physical or verbal coercion (henceforth, “attempts”).

For use in the multivariate analyses, we constructed a summary dependent variable indicating the most severe type of SV since age 14, if any, reported by the participant. The three mutually exclusive categories are: (i) forced sex or attempts; (ii) less severe forms of SV; and (iii) no SV. The Chilean legal definition of rape is described in the Discussion

*note this is a survey of men. It didn’t make any distintion that these types of coercion were invalid if a woman was the perpetrator.

In fact the study very clearly says that women were perpetrators.

It also addressed the issue of men, who had been previously victimised being likely to be assaulted again later:

Research on violence-related sequelae of CSA in boys has largely focused on associations with subsequent perpetration of violence against women (Loh & Gidycz, 2006), but recent studies have begun to examine links with revictimization.†

The multinational study of SV in university students cited above found that men with a history of CSA had elevated adjusted odds of both physically- and verbally-coerced SV over the past year; for each additional type of CSA experienced (in an eight-item scale), the odds of these forms of SV were 1.48 and 1.28 times greater, respectively (Hines, 2007).

A Canadian national study of adults, currently or previously in marital or cohabiting unions, found a positive association of CSA in boys with subsequent p hysical (AOR=1.88) and psychological (AOR=3.01) intimate partner victimization (Daigneault et al., 2009).

† note the use of the word, “revictimisation” and the context, “Adults in currently in marital or cohabiting unions”. That’s open, and not limited to male/male pairings. It says the men in such unions are being victimised.

So no, I don’t think this study “proves” what you say it does. I am now trying to decide if you don’t understand it, or are being intentionally less than forthright.

Ugh
Ugh
7 years ago

@Fade

Here’s one.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1943-278X.1998.tb00622.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

Women have higher rates of suicidal ideation and attempted suicide, but tend to use firearms less.

So if genderneautrallanguage wants to support some gun control policies so fewer men own firearms, then maybe ze has a leg to stand on here.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

So. Many. Things!! Ok…

“Re: suicide rates. I’m not sure, did someone link to a study earlier that showed women and men attempted suicide at the same rate, but men succeeded more often?”

*adds it to zie list* off the top of my head, women attempt suicide at four times the rate men do, but pick methods such as poisoning that don’t have the legality of the methods men use (hanging, guns, etc)

“Criminal sentencing: Ugh, is this appropriated MoC’s higher incarcement rate again?”

Yes, and if I can find it again WoC are incarcerated at higher rates too. Ignoring the influence of race here is, well, appropriative and fucking racist (saying that all women get lighter sentencing when WoC do not is Not. Cool.)

Can you tell that I have nothing better to do currently? 🙂

Tamen
Tamen
7 years ago

Argenti Aertheri:

And Tamen is straight up lying about the CDC’s “made to penetrate” being a category unique to men, give me 2 min to pull that up, I should have that data on the mac.

That is a misrepresentation of what I wrote. I wrote that CDC thinks it’s an uniqe male victimization that is separate from rape. I don’t think it is.

Oh, look, you got it right in this quote:

Tamen — “CDC apparently found it inappropriate to call it rape – or rather they think it’s an unique male victimization that is separate from rape.”

I would agree that by the definition given on page 17 it’s not unique for male victims. I didn’t pull the above sentence from my ass, it’s nearly a direct quote from page 84 of the NISVS 2010 Report:

Being made to penetrate is a form of sexual victimization distinct from rape that is particularly unique to males and, to our knowledge, has not been explicitly measured in previous national studies. It is possible that rape questions in prior studies captured the experience of being made to penetrate someone else, resulting in higher prevalence estimates for male rape in those studies.

Last year I wrote a mail to CDC and asked them if future NISVS surveys would categorize “being made to penetrate” as rape in accordance to the new UCR definition of rape from FBI.

Here’s what they answered:

The FBI definition of rape does not apply here – made to penetrate as we have defined it is distinct from rape and should not be included in a definition of rape.

On the Koss (1993) paper I’ll just say that it’s sort of difficult to pin down whether you don’t think it’s a problem that she argues that “it’s inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sex with a woman” :

15 pages into the first link and I have one comment…so the fuck what?

but I’m not getting to the part where this matters as more than an exercise is why she’s right to say that precise definitions are needed for different studies to be comparable.

or if you do:

So yeah, she needs to sort her damned definitions

I would agree that the statutory cut-off she uses for rape is also equally problematic.

Oh, there are states who have laws that does not require the victim to be penetrated to call it rape (Ohio is one, although for some fucked up reason the law seem to exclude a subset of spousal rape). Aside from those many states who have gone for a gender neutral sexual offenses laws (where the law doesn’t differentiate between being penetrated and being made to penetrate) have abonded the term rape and uses the terms like sexual assault for both. Surely no-one would argue that one should forgo the term rape in prevalency studies from those states.

pecunium
7 years ago

tamen: And Argenti is more patient with you than I, showing your claim of CDC being “controlled” by the Operational Definition (btw, do you understand what an OD is?) is bullshit.

pecunium
7 years ago

GNL: So when men say “Parity is good” it’s like jumping up and down on a table. When women say “parity is good” it’s all social justice and rainbows. I spew bull shit. (FTFY).

Unless you can show this to be a true statement (with comparative citations).

Tamen certainly isn’t calling for “parity”. He’s alleging conspiracy against parity (a subtle, but important difference). He’s also lying.

You are either denser than neutronium, or lying as well. Since the very person tamen is citing, and the quotation he is using, says the operational defitition presented is crappy, and ought to be made more gender neutral.

So your argument fails, on it’s face.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Here’s all the math, with citations, on how 0.165% of all men (period, married or not, divorced or not, your general odds of this is male) end up getting sole custody in a divorce — http://manboobz.com/2013/02/09/ineedmasculismbecause-nothing-is-funnier-than-mras-sincerely-trying-to-explain-their-dumb-beliefs-to-the-world/comment-page-4/#comment-263319

Hints — 25% of men end up divorcing with kids involved, of those divorces, ninety-fucking-five percent settle out of court, of the remaining 5% only a third of men ask for sole custody. So yeah guys, try asking?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

This may be an odd question, but are the type of suicide attempts affected by social norms? Cause it seems as though men are the ones who stereotypically use a gun or jump, and women are the ones who stereotypically use drug overdoses…

Fade
7 years ago

Hey, I have nothing better to do, too!

/Except it’s easter sunday over here, but last night I was barfing and I don’t know if there’s any point in celebrating easter if you can’t eat chocolate rabbits.

Fade
7 years ago

@kibrywarp

I’d definitely think so…

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

kirbywarp — I’ve seen plenty of guesses, but I don’t recall seeing actual data on the matter. Personally, I like EA’s guess in AfWVG — women realize it’s likely to be another women with the mop and bucket.

Re: sentencing disparity — http://manboobz.com/2013/04/08/an-unsolicited-update-from-paul-elams-pnis/comment-page-9/#comment-284645

Quoting myself here:

“In short, black and Hispanic women are sentenced less harshly than black or Hispanic men, but there’s no statistical difference between white women and white men. Which is, um, interesting. Really weirdly, white women go to prison more than black of Hispanic women, it’s a weird race/gender interaction and worth a read if registering for JSTOR doesn’t bother you. And it’s not that mathy so I’m not going to frisk it.”

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Correction — I said women at pt four times more than men, it’s three times. Digging up real stats now (I’ll get back to Tamen, I’m sick of reading 20 pages to get to one sentence that says they’re using a legal definition)

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

First up, percentages by race and gender, completed suicides — http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/rates02.html

Native American rates top white rates despite the extreme difference in representation in the general population.

Next up will be comparing that to racial variance in the general population, but the iPad will eat that.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@gnedernutrallanguage

” Wanting parity in education, criminal sentencing, suicide rates, child custody, child support, workplace deaths and many other issues is no more like throwing a tantrum than wanting parity in pay or the few aspects of education men are still dominant in.”

It seems like your gripes aren’t what the mras complain about. They complain about criminal sentencing, but act like its the same for white men and black men(spoiler it’s not). They don’t do anything about suicide rates. The only reason they complain about childcustody is they don’t want to pay child support (ignoring raising the kids is just as expensive, if not ore so, usually). Yet they don’t actually want to raise their own kids. They just think women should shut up and raise the kids with no financial help. They whine about workplace deaths but at the same time don’t want women in those jobs… They just hate women, and any valid points they have (which I do think most of what you said are valid complaints) they turn into another reason to hate women.

If you want women and men to share dangerous jobs, feminism is working on that. We don’t think women are inferior to men, and we do think men shouldn’t have all the dangerous jobs.

If you want men to have more custody of their kids, and it not default on women, feminism is working on that. We don’t think women are naturally better to be care takers, and men not Naturally better at being providers.

And I don’t know enough about the other issues to say for sure, but you sure as hell can do better than the mra.

::posts before loses comment::

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@argenti aertheri

“*adds it to zie list* off the top of my head, women attempt suicide at four times the rate men do, but pick methods such as poisoning that don’t have the legality of the methods men use (hanging, guns, etc)”

Fu… Did not know 🙁

“Yes, and if I can find it again WoC are incarcerated at higher rates too. Ignoring the influence of race here is, well, appropriative and fucking racist (saying that all women get lighter sentencing when WoC do not is Not. Cool.)”

I think that’s true… Heard before. Sadly I have zero links…they are all on my computer, which has died.:( so count me as not sure atm

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

@Marie:

I’d be interested in seeing if genderneuterallanguage is sticking around to look at Argenti’s wonderful data analysis. If not, then xie’s probably just spouting off talking points with no interest in their accuracy or solutions. Which would surprise me greatly*.

* Note: would not surprise me at all

Aaliyah
7 years ago

So when men say “Parity is good” it’s like jumping up and down on a table.
When women say “parity is good” it’s all social justice and rainbows. I call bull shit.

What the fuck? How did you get all of that from just that picture?

The man depicted is an example of an MRA dipshit who thinks that being told to talk somewhere else or change the topic is evidence of lack of regard for men’s rights. That’s so obvious that it’s hard for me to see you as not being extremely disingenuous.

Wanting parity in…suicide rates…workplace deaths…

Lol, how about we try to start working to reduce those things as much as possible for everyone instead of trying to create parity for the sake of parity? Especially when the parity you speak of, you know, will cause suffering?

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/rates01.html

I’m rounding to (per 100,000):
Non-hispanic white 16
Non-Hispanic black 6
Hispanic 7
Native American 17.5
Asian 6

Adds to 52.5

Population wise (census data):
White 78.1%
Black 13.1%
Native American 1.2%
Asian 5.0%

Math time, because the two use different methods to get at the percent of the population that’s Hispanic

Census:
Hispanic or Latino Origin 16.7%
White not Hispanic 63.4%

Assuming that all non-white Hispanic people are black, that makes the percents:
78.1% – 63.4% = 14.7%
16.7% – 14.7% = 2%

Non-hispanic white 63.4%
Non-hispanic black 11.1%
Hispanic 16.7%
Native American 1.2%
Asian 5.0%
(I’m assuming the missing 2.6% is a combo of rounding and having dropped the other racial categories as I lack suicide data for them)

So, suicide rate, in percent of total suicides, by race:
Non-hispanic white 16/52.5 = ~0.30 = 30%
Non-Hispanic black 6/52.5 = ~0.11 = 11%
Hispanic 7/52.5 = ~0.13 = 13%
Native American 17.5/52.5 = ~0.33 = 33%
Asian 6/52.5 = ~0.11 = 11%

Over/under representation, percent of suicides versus percent of population:
Non-hispanic white 30% – 63.4% = -33.4%
Non-hispanic black 11% – 11.1% = -0.1%
Hispanic 13% – 16.7% = -3.7%
Native American 33% – 1.2% = 31.8%
Asian 11% – 5% = 6%

So yeah, any time they’d like to stop appropriating another one that’s far more racial inequity than gender inequity, that’d rock.

For the sake of completeness:
Men 49%
Women 51%

Suicide rate per 100,000
Male 20.67 = ~21/26 = 81%
Female 4.62 = ~5/26 = 19%

Men 81% – 49% = 32%
Women 19% – 51% = -32%

Yes that weirdness does make sense, so yeah, the gender difference is just about the same as the racial difference, but you don’t hear jack squat about how non-Hispanic white people are underrepresented at the same rate that men are over represented (and if you really want math, I’ll do the cross variable analysis)

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

@Aaliyah:

Makes me wonder exactly what MRAs want when they talk about workplace deaths. Do they want to make dangerous jobs safer? Can’t blame women for that. Do they want women to be in dangerous jobs too? Apparently not, since they don’t want women to intrude on men’s spaces.

What we’re left with is MRAs wanting to use workplace deaths as a beatstick… They want only men in the dangerous jobs (because of course women couldn’t handle it) but then complain about it to justify higher pay for men and try to make women feel bad about stepping out of place.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

A couple more of posterity —

Me having it out with NWO on false accusations, previous pages contain some basic rape statistics, next pages contain some classic NWO fail — http://manboobz.com/2012/05/27/artisty-against-misandry-peddles-pure-hate/comment-page-2/#comment-158753

Math on DV murder, including that damnit “women hire hit men” bullshit — http://manboobz.com/2012/12/26/mens-rights-redditor-warns-men-be-careful-with-your-sperm-your-very-freedom-is-at-stake/comment-page-11/#comment-237259

I should probably finish with Tamen’s shit, for completeness, but So. Boring. I don’t really expect to find anything that isn’t “the legal definition of rape does not include men being made to penetrate, so we called that sexually assault // forced sex”

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Pecunium — “tamen: And Argenti is more patient with you than I, showing your claim of CDC being “controlled” by the Operational Definition (btw, do you understand what an OD is?) is bullshit.”

Well, you do know how I feel about math ^.^

bahumbugi
7 years ago

@Argenti – Women of color are incarcerated at higher rates…they make up 2/3 the women in prison population in the US.

In 2004, black women were 4.5 times more likely than white women to be incarcerated.[vi]

African American women’s incarceration rates for all crimes increased by 800% since 1986, compared to an increase of 400% for women of all races

http://www.aclu.org/womens-rights/words-prison-did-you-know

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

bahumbugi — a citation that isn’t behind a paywall! Thank you!

bahumbugi
7 years ago

Argenti – do you have access to peer-reviewed stuff online? I can give you tons and tons of data about women in the prison system, but due to the very nature of the system, you just can’t get clean data. The criminal justice system does affect more men than women, but once women are in the system, they are often more harshly sentenced than men, contrary to all the mrm rhetoric (can’t call it rhetoric, if I were smart I’d cross rhetoric out and write pseudo-archaic psychobabble)…but they’ll just dismiss the feminist hivemind organizations that bother to do the research (ACLU, prisoners’ rights organizations, etc.)

also the ACLU site popped this title up on the sidebar, and i laughed

Bring Women’s Human Rights Home

genderneutrallanguage
7 years ago

Well in the 10 posts replying to my several points, I found 4 points worth replying to.

Women do ATTEMPT suicide 4x the rate that men do. This is an issue that needs to be addressed. It does not negate the need to address the need to address men successfully completing suicide at 4x the rate of women.

There are no legal restrictions of the dangerous jobs. For the most part these jobs are desperate for women to comply with EOE laws. It’s not that women can’t get dangerous jobs, it’s that women don’t want the jobs. We can send men with guns to kidnap the women and force the to work, then we would have parity. But that makes parity sound like some form of slavery, and parity is all rainbows and butterflies.

On equality in prisons. Wow, sexism affects blacks more than whites. Who’da thunk it. I mean “intersectionality” isn’t a big thing. No one’s ever heard of that.

Only 1/3 of the 5% that force a judge to choice for them even bother to ask for custody. But hey that 1/3 of 5% that have the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to chase child custody…..they win about 50% of the time. Trying to shame men into being accused of child molestation more often isn’t going to make the situation any better. A “male positive” view of fatherhood is needed to start making changes. Shit like “Rape Culture” is actively opposed to a male positive view.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Um, not exactly? I can ask a grad student Very, Very Nicely, but it’s finals week and idk if ze has time. Drop the citations here though, a couple of our commenters do have access, just not me.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Dude, did you see how often out of court agreements result in people getting what they asked for? This really is an issue of not asking (fuck, a third of men want the woman to have sole custody!)

“On equality in prisons. Wow, sexism affects blacks more than whites. Who’da thunk it. I mean “intersectionality” isn’t a big thing. No one’s ever heard of that.”

Go tell the MRM that, they remember that race exists only when it serves them. (Do you want me to start ranting about the obscene rate of murder among trans* WoC? No? Then don’t attempt to claim that feminism isn’t working on the whole intersectionality thing.)

You claimed women are sentenced more often than men, which is straight up not true. Among white women and men, the rates are the same. This is pure racism, not a gender parity issue at all.

Way to ignore all the math on suicide rates and focus on my off the cuff reply to Fade.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Re: Tamen — “The SES surveys examines degrees of coercion used or experienced in sexual activity. All versions of the revised SES measure behavior that meets legal definitions of various sex crimes, with the exception of acts accomplished by verbal coercion not involving threats of physical harm”

22 pages / 1 link left

Fade
7 years ago

This is an issue that needs to be addressed. It does not negate the need to address the need to address men successfully completing suicide at 4x the rate of women.

So… what do you want to do about it? Gun control?

But that makes parity sound like some form of slavery, and parity is all rainbows and butterflies.

That’s because it would be a form of slavery, dickhead.

Also, something doesn’t have to be illegal for sexism to keep women out. If women face sexual harrassment, disproportionate lack of premotion… that’s on the men, not them. I wouldn’t want to get ina field I knew would have a bunch of dickheads hazing me for my gender unless it was something I really liked.

A “male positive” view of fatherhood is needed to start making changes. Shit like “Rape Culture” is actively opposed to a male positive view.

Male positive view of fatherhood: possible (though I’m assuming you don’t mean the version where people praise men for “babysitting” their own kids because that means really low expectations for men, which I guess you would not like.

But rape culture exists. If you want it to not, work on dismantling it.

Rape culture exists because people worry about rapists’s bright future being ruined when they are convicted of the rape they committed (steubenville). It exists when 3 percent of rapists are convicted, rapists can seek custody in 31 states, politicians think that women can’t get pregnant from rape. When people think that women ask for rape by going out in skimpy clothes, or that people think the only rape is a man jumping out of a bush and forcing himself on a virgen when only 17 percent of rapes are stranger rapes.

It can also negatively affect male victims, by insinuating that if a man is victimized by a woman, he is weak, or that men also want sex. But if you think it doesn’t exist, you are a denying piece of shit.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Oh and the MRM claim is that sexist judges deny men custody. And I missed this gem —

“Trying to shame men into being accused of child molestation more often isn’t going to make the situation any better.”

Feminism agrees! Does not support false accusations! Of course, your wording makes little sense, but I’m assuming you where trying to say that accusing men of child mole station to bias a judge is wrong, and lookie, we agree!

“A “male positive” view of fatherhood is needed to start making changes.”

Um, sure? I already said that feminism wants men to be more involved in raising children…

“Shit like “Rape Culture” is actively opposed to a male positive view.”

Unrelated thing is unrelated!

Somebody else give him a Rape Culture 101 link please, I have more of Tamen’s shit to wade through. Thanks!

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Ninja’ed!

You rock Fade.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@gendernutrallanguage

“It’s not that women can’t get dangerous jobs, it’s that women don’t want the jobs. We can send men with guns to kidnap the women and force the to work, then we would have parity. But that makes parity sound like some form of slavery, and parity is all rainbows and butterflies.”

This is why there haven’t been women trying to get in the army…oh wait, there have.

Also, every time your solution involves kidnapping people, it’s a signyou are a horrible human being

“If women face sexual harrassment, disproportionate lack of premotion… that’s on the men, not them”

Yes. Seconded and qft

bahumbugi
7 years ago

Hmm…

A “male positive” view of fatherhood is needed to start making changes. Shit like “Rape Culture” is actively opposed to a male positive view.

Maybe all those good fathers should start making some noise, then.

Oh wait, I forgot that “male positive view” means “assuming all men are awesome and whining if anyone suggests otherwise.”

Aaliyah
7 years ago

Shit like “Rape Culture” is actively opposed to a male positive view.

Spoken like someone who has no fucking idea what rape culture actually is. There is nothing misandric about pointing out the fact that most sexual aggressors are male. For one, most men aren’t sexual aggressors. And even if it were the case that most men are sexual aggressors, that wouldn’t change the fact that pointing that out isn’t misandric because we don’t oppose men; we oppose rapists, and we focus on men not because we think they are beasts, but because most rapists are men because of the worst of masculine socialization facilitated by the patriarchy.

bahumbugi
7 years ago

If anyone has citations on why women tend to choose different methods of suicide than men (I’ve understood there’s a tendency to be thinking of others, i.e., not wanting to leave people a physical mess to clean up, but I have no idea if that’s substantiated), I would appreciate it. Other than access to guns causing a disparity, because men have greater access to guns, and having access to a gun is a huge risk factor for attempting suicide with a firearm (unsurprisingly).

Fade
7 years ago

I googled why do women commit suicide with different means than men. here

Evidently on women vs men suicide

“She’ll consider not just her feelings but also the feelings of others — her family, the children, even acquaintances, and how those people will be affected by a decision like suicide,” Murphy says. “A man is much less likely to take those things into account. He makes his decision, and it’s about him, so he doesn’t feel the need to share it with anyone else.”

they also mentioned women are more likely to seek help, because men see it as an admission of weakness.

So if troll-boy wants to help male suicide, he should work on helping men realize that feelings are not weakness, not blaming women.

Fade
7 years ago

I’m gonna do a tiny bit more research later b/c I don’t know if one study is conclusive, but right now I am chillin with my siblings. XD

pecunium
7 years ago

GNL: There are no legal restrictions of the dangerous jobs. For the most part these jobs are desperate for women to comply with EOE laws. It’s not that women can’t get dangerous jobs, it’s that women don’t want the jobs.

Really? Women aren’t hazed when they try to work construction, pipe-fitting, fire departments?

Got numbers to show how social pressures to not apply factor into that? Care to address things like, “women aren’t capable of leading/innovating/doing physical labor” factor into it (Remember Larry Summers and his, “women can’t do math?” How about Kathy Sierra being hounded out of her work, because she was female)?

Unsupported allegations of bullshit ideas (desperate for women to comply with EOE laws), are not substantive response.

Only 1/3 of the 5% that force a judge to choice for them even bother to ask for custody. But hey that 1/3 of 5% that have the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to chase child custody…..they win about 50% of the time.

Whut? So women are getting custody because they can afford to outspend the men?

Anecdote time. I have a friend who, after a few years after the divorce; in which her husband plead poverty; despite having been the owner of a profitable software firm (it “went bankrupt” during the divorce), got involved with someone. In the intervening time the husband had damn all time for their two sons. Skipped visits, changed plans; had no money for the child support (he was, “unable to find work”).

She and her new partner got married. Decided to move. Suddenly the ex-husband wanted to be involved. Found the money to pay for a lawyer to hale her back to Calif, (thankfully the job she had left was willing to hire her back), and try to get an injunction to force her to live in Calif.

He owed the kids some 14,000 worth of child support (which is a lot less than it sounds: two kids, a bit more than three years of arrears… 14,000/2 = 7,000 per child, 7,000/3 = 2, 333 per child. 2,333. Even if you combine the amounts, that’s $388 per month, for both sons).

He, somehow, found a bit more than 50,000 dollars to contest her moving. One of the things the judge did, when deciding she could leave the state, was point out that the disparity in his interest (i.e. so much to contest custody vs. nothing for regular support of the children) showed a certain lack of real interest in the welfare of the children.

That, combined with his terrible record at actually taking part in their lives (which bothered the kids. The older son in particular wondered why his father didn’t seem to want to spend time with him, wondered why he wasn’t loved any more) is why he lost the case.

So your “the poor fathers can’t afford to contest it”, it is bullshit. Esp. because most divorces don’t have real issues with how the custody is decided.

A “male positive” view of fatherhood is needed to start making changes.

Male positive? I thought you were all about “gender neutrality” and looking to see some, “parity”?

“Shit like “Rape Culture” is actively opposed to a male positive view.”

What the fuck does this mean?

It’s predicate on their being no cultural attitudes which cause rape, and the fear of rape, to be controlling aspects of women’s lives.

You may not like it, but it’s there.

Do yourself a favor; tell us what you think “rape culture” means. I’ll bet you don’t really know; and have some MRM talking point instead.

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