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a voice for men antifeminism harassment hate literal nazis misandry misogyny MRA oppressed white men paul elam racism slacktivism

Lazy Libel 2: Georgetown prof debunks the alleged Arianna Pattek conspiracy. And more on Stormfront

Did Men's Rights Activists take their cues in this case from literal Nazis?
Men’s Rights Activists have a lot more in common with white supremacists than they’d like to admit.

Just a quick update on the case of Arianna Pattek, the recent Georgetown graduate targeted for harassment by A Voice for Men and others, including the white supremacists at Stormfront. As I pointed out in an earlier piece, the “detective work” that led A Voice for Men’s Paul Elam and the other Pattek-bashers to target her was incredibly inept and sloppy, and it’s clear beyond any possible doubt that she has nothing whatsoever to do with the misandrist blog they accused her of writing, which increasingly obviously seems to be an utter hoax.

A Voice for Men, which hasn’t yet acknowledged much less apologized for its obvious mistake, has made much of the fact that information about Pattek was pulled down off of a Georgetown website after various websites started targeting her — attributing this to some sinister conspiracy. “[I]t now appears almost certain,” Elam wrote in his error-riddled post on the matter,

that individuals at Georgetown, perhaps even university officials, are purging their online records of that thesis, and her identity, in order to protect the interest of the school against what will almost certainly result in a massive amount of litigation.

Last night Mark Lance, director of the Justice and Peace program at Georgetown, left this message in the comments here on Man Boobz. (I confirmed his identity through email.)

Hi. Im the director of the Justice and Peace program at GU, though I was not directing when Arianna graduated. I just wanted to let folks know that her information was removed from some web sites at to protect her. This story was first picked up by Stormfront.org and the white supremacists have been harassing and threatening her, including posting her home address, picture, etc. It was probably pointless, but the person who directed the program last year decided to remove the info. So, sorry, no conspiracy. Just an attempt to protect a young woman from vicious hate groups.

That explanation makes sense to me, and certainly he’s got more credibility on this matter than Paul Elam. (A ham sandwich has more credibility than Paul Elam.)

Lance’s comment raises an interesting question: Did Stormfront in fact start harassing Pattek before the MRAs got to her?

Here’s what we know: Stormfront — incorrectly — named Pattek the author of the feministconservative blog a little after 3 AM Eastern time on the 18th, the same day that Redditors in the Men’s Rights and Conspiracy subreddits (and a few others) picked up the story. Timestamps on Reddit aren’t precise, but I’m guessing they got to it after 3 AM.  The phony news also began spreading around Tumblr that day as well. Elam posted his piece trashing Pattek later that same day.

So, yes, it does sound like the white supremacists got to Pattek first.

Does this also suggest  that the bogus information published by A Voice for Men came — directly or indirectly — from Stormfront?

That seems much less likely. Though I can’t confirm it, it looks like the whole thing originated not on Stormfront but on 4chan, and that their bogus theory about Pattek spread to all the other sites out there. (I find it hard to believe that all the other sites arrived independently at the same patently false conclusion.) It’s certainly possible that Elam got his info from Stormfront, but it seems more likely he got it from 4chan, or, even more likely, 4chan via Reddit.

If anyone has evidence that 4chan picked up the theory from Stormfront, let me know.

In any case, the whole event says a lot about how bad information spreads on the internet, and just who is getting information from whom.

It also says a lot that A Voice for Men, which likes to pretend it’s at the vanguard of a great 21st century “Men’s Human Rights Movement” was nearly as quick to jump on the Pattek-hating bandwagon as the literal Nazis at Stormfront — that is, the leftover stragglers from a 20th century hate movement.

And it’s quite telling that both Stormfronters and AVFMers think that doxing and harassment of individuals are justifiable forms of “activism.”

I would say something about strange bedfellows, but these bedfellows aren’t strange in the slightest. They’re two hate movements, just made for each other.

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katz
8 years ago

Sorry, my mistake. Zero for five.

John Archibald
John Archibald
8 years ago

If we call all people who defend white guys “white supremacists” then can we call all people who defend girls “female supremacists” instead of feminists??

Malitia
Malitia
8 years ago

John:

You’re a troll, but you still could be more creative. Like learning that words have meanings:

supremacist

su·prem·a·cist
/səˈprɛməsɪst, sʊ-/ Show Spelled [suh-prem-uh-sist, soo-]
noun
a person who believes in or advocates the supremacy of a particular group, especially a racial group: a white supremacist.

supremacy

su·prem·a·cy
/səˈprɛməsi, sʊ-/ Show Spelled [suh-prem-uh-see, soo-]
noun
1.
the state of being supreme.
2.
supreme authority or power.

dictionary.com

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

If we call all people who defend white guys “white supremacists” then can we call all people who defend girls “female supremacists” instead of feminists??

You could call them purple monkey dishwashers if it makes you feel better, doesn’t mean anyone will take you seriously. Also, who the fuck is equating “defending white guys” with “white supremacists”. I defend white guys plenty of times, both individually, and as a group, yet no one accuses me of white supremacy. Maybe it’s your manner of “defence” that’s the problem

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I have decided that the new word for people who “defend” white men is “flurb”. No reason, really, just felt like being nice and giving John the Whiner an alternative that doesn’t use the word “supremacist”.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

Flurb, I like it.

Kind of a pity to waste a good new word on those twits.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Hey, if Minty can make up new words why can’t we?

Kittehserf
8 years ago

I’m all for making up new words, only I think flurb’s too nice a word to be wasted on the tosserbros. 😀

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Random question for kitteh cuz she might know, is there an Isabella of France in the time period to make 1560s baby? Cuz my brother did a damned fine job on the family tree right until she and one “Edward Edward” spawn a May Van Aldred in 1560 and that just makes no bloody sense! 1) related to Edward the second? *haz doubts* 2) he wasn’t having earthy kids in 1560!

Wtf is going on here? I’m tempted to just ignore May’s parents since it seems legit back through her and then THAT.

Thank you!

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Can’t I have normal relatives where “so, not Welch, Scottish” is the height of it? No, I gotta be tracking down wtf Isabella of France was doing making babies centuries after she died and digging through Mayflower manifests (and a president and Ben Franklin and ok y’all are just pulling shit out of your ass or went so far back that we’re related to everyone right?! [amazingly, no notes claiming “related to the pope”…so far])

And yes Cassandra, that means I’m apparently part Scottish. Haggis is still gross.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

Being related to Edward II wouldn’t actually be difficult – he had a few kids and his son Edward III had lots. All Henry VIII’s wives were descended from Edward III, which says something.

There certainly is an Isabella of France of that time! Elisabeth de Valois, daughter of Henri II and third wife of Phillip II of Spain (he of the Armada). She crossed over in 1568. I don’t know if she has any descendents; I only know about one of her two surviving children, Isabella Clara Eugenia, who became regent of the Netherlands in Mr K’s earthly days, but didn’t have any children.

Okay, I’m off to watch telly and knit!

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

…Welsh…

I’m going to bed then. Must remember to prod my brother about where he found that, because it seems to be all over the internet with no backing at all and I haz an annoyed.

G’night guys!

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

What do white guys as a group need protection from, anyway? Even the far-right racists seem to place the biggest threat as being “other people breeding faster”, which is surely not directly done at white dudes. In fact, breeding at anyone’s a bad way to go about it.

The assessments of 4chan above are mostly sound. It’s a complicated sort of place – most boards start off civilised but weird and devolve into some form of creepiness occasionally, threads are then often posted to mock that creepiness, that particular form of creepiness becomes the board’s “thing”, and then later users vary from being entirely serious to being entirely facetious. And then the whole cycle happens again, and the whole thing piles up. It’s fascinating in a way – we’re-not-joking-just-joking-we-are-joking-just-joking-we’re-not-joking – and the lack of usernames adds to that.

It’s not all that sort of thing, either – the boards people would be thinking of would be /b/ (“random” – changes often but a unique sort of place), /r9k/ (misogyny), and /pol/ (white supremacism).

/mu/, for example, is an above-average music discussion board once you’re used to it, and /lit/ isn’t awful, and /soc/ is just bored people with webcams.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

Next pet I get will definitely be a dog,* but I’m not sure which. Some medium to large sized puppy. I’ve confessed my love of Golden Retrievers here before but I’m not sure how well my lifestyle might suit one. Here’s a couple of babies being babies:

http://youtu.be/jabyN6ZBQGs

*I love the kitties and I hope they live forever but it’s kind of like I’ve had a cold for 2 years running. Never again.

emilygoddess
8 years ago

@crumbelievable

So then whoever first brought the blog to the attention of r/mensrights got the info from reading Stromfront…now that’s a pleasant thought!

I thought the point was that they both got their “information” on this story from 4chan (which means 4chan has white supremacists and MRAs running around, but that’s apparently not news to people who have spent time there)

Buntzums
Buntzums
8 years ago

David got a shout out from GWW 25:00 in to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POa20i8Cm_E

AK
AK
8 years ago

[blockquote]What do white guys as a group need protection from, anyway? Even the far-right racists seem to place the biggest threat as being “other people breeding faster”, which is surely not directly done at white dudes. In fact, breeding at anyone’s a bad way to go about it.[/blockquote]

I have a family member who is a reformed neo-nazi and I’ve spoken with him a little about his former beliefs, and yes, these guys often do think that “out-breeding” good white European-descended Christian folks is an intentional strategy that brown people are using to try to take over the world. It makes no sense and is completely illogical, but so are most of their beliefs so I guess that it fits.

bahumbugi, I’m a dog person as well. I currently have 4 heelers, 2 GSDs and a border collie (the BC and one of the GSDs are fosters, the other 5 are permanent residents). I actually make most of my living training dogs. We do detection work and sports like agility and schutzhund, plus I train a lot of basic obedience. I like seeing all the kitties here but I’m definitely all about the dogs. 🙂

AK
AK
8 years ago

…and also apparently up too early to use the correct blockquote method. Oops.

Jack Donovan
8 years ago

While it would be pretty crafty if you managed to associate Paul Elam and the MRAs with the far right, and me specifically, it would also be pretty mean and unfair. Elam is basically a confused liberal feminist. I’ve gone out of my way to separate what I do from what he does, and I’m fairly certain he hates my guts.

Where MRAs, the Manosphere, and the Alt-RIght are concerned, what you actually have is a series of complementary arguments that sometimes overlap. There is no “fascist” puppet master telling MRAs what to say, and Elam and his ilk are not racist even by a longshot. So, while you *could* try to manufacture some kind of association smear, it would be a convenient fiction, and you wouldn’t want to do that. It really doesn’t help the credibility of progressives when they get caught lying.

emilygoddess
8 years ago

Oh man, I love it when MRAs accuse each other of being feminists!

*passes homemade popcorn around*

Jack Donovan
8 years ago

Eyeroll.

I know MRA is like a cool swear word in this camp, but I’m not an MRA. This is actually a really old discussion.

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/02/04/the-grievance-table/

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

OK, you’re not an MRA. How about fascist reactionary puke? That work better for you?

emilygoddess
8 years ago

Sorry dude, your first sentence is a little confusing. Does “me specifically” refer to the far right, or “Paul Elam and the MRAs”?

Anyway, fine, I’ll amend my statement:

I love it when the various kinds of woman haters accuse each other of being feminists!

*offers parmesan cheese for the popcorn*

emilygoddess
8 years ago

OK, I clicked the link.

I mostly just skimmed it, because tl;dr, but it’s nothing new, really. Just a really long and wordy addition to the unholy marriage of MRA talking points and anti-state whaargarbl.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

In what world are Paul Elam and his merry band of fools not racist?

emilygoddess
8 years ago

And Jack, honey, having a different definition of racism than you isn’t quite the same as lying.

Jack Donovan
8 years ago

Just clarifying.

cloudiah
8 years ago

The boys at AVfM certainly take great glee in throwing around the n-word.

Fade
8 years ago

Elam is basically a confused liberal feminist.

ha ha ha!

ha ha ha!

hahaha!

Not like I don’t think that liberals can’t wind up being sexist, because they can, but you seriously need to look up the definition of “feminist”. Or start using your brain.

Elam and his ilk are not racist even by a longshot.

riiiiiiight.

I know MRA is like a cool swear word in this camp, but I’m not an MRA.

cool story, bro.

You’re still an asshole.

emilygoddess
8 years ago

Also, note that his “not an MRA” claim hinges on a philosophical position about the nature of rights, not on his rejection of MRA theories in general. I mean, the screed he linked to is on The Spearhead, and “I’m not an MRA I just post on their sites” isn’t exactly a strong defense.

Jack Donovan
8 years ago

I guess you can make up whatever you want.

I know Elam and his pals are happy to include men from all races, and he would never support or associate with any actual racists. Bill from The Spearhead is also against discriminating against men of any ethnicity. I’ve talked to him in person about it. There have actually been several attempted purges of WNs from MRA sites, because a lot of those guys are offended by the idea that they even have WN readers and commenters. There are also a lot of MRAs who are Jews.

cloudiah
8 years ago

All I really need to know is that both Jack Donovan & his ilk and AVfM & their ilk are my ideological enemies. The small nuances separating them are not relevant, since at their core, none of them view women as human beings with equal rights.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Really, Jack? Because the only time I see PaulE and the gang give one fuck about MOC is when they can use them as a beatstick against feminism.

You’re a lying sack of shit asshole.

Jack Donovan
8 years ago

Oh yes. We’re ideological enemies. Absolutely.

If you say things that aren’t true about your enemies, it makes you look foolish, uninformed, and easy to discredit.

Everyone who disagrees with you about women is not a racist. Only some are.

I’m constantly reminded that I can’t pigeon-hole feminists, or that I’m mis-characterizing them, because there are many different feminists with diverse views on a wide range of topics.

This is the same thing, applied in the opposite direction.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

No one here ever said that every anti-feminist is a racist. Just that the AVfM is certainly packed fat with them. Learn to read, Jack.

Jack Donovan
8 years ago

If you mean anonymous commenters and trolls, then probably, sure.

Paul Elam, no. The majority of his writers and supporters, no.

And rest assured, I don’t like the guy. But he’s not a racist by any meaningful definition.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Yeah, right.

Fade
8 years ago

@Jack

I admit I haven’t read enough of Elam’s garbage to know whether he is really, really racist, or just regular racist, but I do know that he like to appropriate the slavery (in the USA) narrative for his purposes, which as a white male, is incredibly skeevy.

Like here

We have no more sympathy for your agenda of hatred and exclusion than for a plantation owner’s rationale in the Antebellum South for justified ownership of another human being.

yeah. The fact that he is comparing men as an oppressed group to slaves and feminism to plantation owners is suuuuuuper creepy, and also lacks any understanding of history.

Jack Donovan
8 years ago

I guess. As far as I can tell using slavery and Nazis as “ultimate evil” hyperbole for rhetorical effect is a common political practice from Republican neocons all the way across the spectrum to far-left animal rights activists. I don’t know if cliche writing makes him a racist.

cloudiah
8 years ago

The fact that Paul E. is willing to appropriate the experience of men of color and use it to attack women? Pretty fucking racist, actually. So yeah, while he is not a robe-wearing member of the KKK, he’s a racist, just in a kindler/gentler format.

That’s my opinion. We could always submit the question of whether or not Paulie is a racist to binding arbitration, I suppose.

Fade
8 years ago

Okay, so some people minimalize evil all the time in their narratives. And? How does that make it okay? Just because you care about the alleged oppression of men getting laid does not make that cause similar to fighting slavery or the Nazis. It just disrespects people who have actually had to deal with those problems.

emilygoddess
8 years ago

Going through the racism tage here on Manboobz, it looks like most of the racism that’s been highlighted here has been from the Spearhead. I can’t find much from Elam, but I’m only a couple of pages in. Anyone got links?

Jack Donovan
8 years ago

Okeydokey. Nevermind. Please return to your regularly scheduled program.

pecunium
8 years ago

KItteh’s: When did the MRM start? I started noticing it in the late 80s/early 90s. Not so “organised” as it is now, but with a lot of the same things, and support networks to push the ideas: things like the divorce courts being “stacked” against men, and women having all the power (for some stupid; and mostly discredited, stuff google, “alienation of affection”), as well as the idea that women are being given preference/feminism is lying (wage gap, etc.).

Basically about the time feminism had made the sort of inroads which made it possible for people to think, “well we don’t need feminism anymore”.

katz
8 years ago

So…why should we allow this moron to define racism for everyone?

emilygoddess
8 years ago

Basically about the time feminism had made the sort of inroads which made it possible for people to think, “well we don’t need feminism anymore”.

Also known as “the backlash”.

BlackBloc (@XBlackBlocX)

Unsurprisingly, if us lefties occasionally get into shouting matches with each other based on whether our particular brand of activism thinks patriarchy or white supremacy (or class) is the most pressing problem, the reactionaries also have the same internal scuffles.

One thing though, Jack Donovan, is I hope you’re ready to march down to camp with your little embroided pink triangle once you get your wishes. Otherwise you’re even dumber than the average WN.

pecunium
8 years ago

Jack: Your complaint isn’t really that Elam’s not a racist, it’s that he’s not racist enough; and that what racism he has he’s not proud of.

Saying he’s not racist; because he tries to hide it makes you look stupid.

thekidwiththereplaceablehead
thekidwiththereplaceablehead
8 years ago

“Racism” is a pretty broad term. It can include things like assuming all that black people you meet like rap music, or comparing yourself to Rosa Parks for standing up to the guy at IKEA when he refused to take your return without a receipt. It can also mean that you think race is the most important thing about people and all of history can be explained as the struggle between different ethnic groups.
So, yeah, AVfM is ‘racist’ when they compare the term ‘mansplain’ to ‘n-wordsplain’, and they deserve to be called out on this. But they’re not ‘racist’ like white nationalists are racist. They’re all anti-feminists, though, which really makes me happy to identify as feminist.
In my personal taxonomy of manosphere d-bags, MRAs seem to be mostly identified by their use of oppression and ‘social justice’ language, just made to be about men. A lot of the way they talk seems to be a weird bizarro world distortion of feminism. Take a feminist issue (rape, DV, workplace discrimination, etc.) and make it about men and you’ve got a good chunk of the MRA bullshit.