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Lazy Libel: A Voice for Men “doxes” an alleged misandrist blogger — and ID’s the wrong woman [UPDATE2 w/ Georgetown response, notes from neo-Nazis]

A Voice for Men: The Gang that Couldn't Dox STraight
A Voice for Men: The Gang that Couldn’t Dox Straight

As I finished up my last post about Men’s Rights Redditors attempting to dox a so-called “conservative feminist” blogger who had confessed to trashing male applications when working in a university admissions office, I saw that A Voice for Men has run a post by Paul Elam identifying someone they’ve convinced themselves is the blogger, apparently using the information dug up by the Reddit doxers.

Their alleged culprit? “Arianna Pattek, a Georgetown grad student.” Other Men’s Rightsers have taken up the case, and the Conspiracy Subreddit is all aflutter about a post identifying her by name.

They’ve got the wrong person.

AVFM “proof” backing up their claims is that they have found a paper by Pattek that bears some vague resemblances to the blogger’s description of her thesis. But it’s clearly not a match.

Discussing her (then upcoming) thesis defense on her blog, the blogger refers to a number of topics, including men’s rights and paleoconservatism, that aren’t referenced at all in Pattek’s thesis. And roughly half the of her thesis deals with a topic — Holocaust Denial — that the blogger doesn’t mention. The blogger says her thesis is 120 pages; Pattek’s thesis is 95 pages.

But there’s an even bigger reason I know these two women are not one and the same:

The pseudonymous blogger claims to have gotten a doctorate in the spring of 2012.

Pattek got her bachelors degree from Georgetown in the spring of 2012. She’s not now, and has never been, a grad student.

Her thesis wasn’t a PhD. thesis, but a Senior Thesis that was a requirement for her minor in Justice and Peace, a program for undergraduates.

It even says so on the title page of the thesis itself: “A Thesis Submitted in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements for the Certificate in Justice and Peace, Georgetown University, Spring 2012.” A news article linked to in the comments on A Voice for Men notes that she was “the winner of the 2012 Peace and Justice Studies Association (PJSA) Undergraduate Thesis Award.”

UNDERgraduate. UNDERgraduate.

They’re not the same woman.

All of this is clear from simply reading the “evidence” that AVFM has assembled.

Even without this smoking gun, even a cursory skimming of the blog and the thesis show that they were written by different people. The blogger, assuming she is even a real person and not the creation of a hoaxer, claims to be a “conservative feminist” and constantly bashes Muslims. Pattek, concerned about “marginalized groups,” seems to be anything but a conservative. The blogger’s writing style is crude and dogmatic, so much so that the blog reeks of hoax. Pattek, by contrast, writes smoothly and intelligently.

It’s almost as if we are talking about two different people.

Oh, wait.

A Voice for Men: not only shitty people, but shitty doxers as well.

Amazingly, someone who says he’s a friend of Pattek has gone over to AVFM to point out in the comments that she is clearly not the “conservative feminist” blogger — and has been dismissed by Wrong-Way Elam and the gang as a liar and “white knight.”

EDITED TO ADD: MarkyMark and The Elusive Wapiti have both climbed aboard the anti-Pattek bandwagon.

And Georgetown has officially clarified that 1) Pattek was an UNDERgraduate and that 2) she never worked in admissions.

tT0GNcR

Meanwhile, over on AVFM, someone called Disorderly Conduct has posted an appropriately critical comment:

I’m disconcerted by the certainty of other commenters that everything is true considering the amount and plausibility of evidence that currently exists. There’s nothing wrong with prodding the university for answers about Arianna and the website edits, but at the very least wait until more evidence comes in before you run off with your verdict.

It should be noted the credibility of the entire controversy is based on anecdotes taken from an extremely dubious and over-the-top blog. Anecdotes are NOT valid evidence of anything unless they are substantiated by additional solid evidence, and this anecdote has none. Evidence connecting the blog to Arianna suggests she might be writing the blog, not that what is being written is true. Additionally, there are serious discrepancies between the information provided about Adrianna on the cached Georgetown pages and the beliefs stated in the blog. Some commenters suggest this is to cover her identity, but there is no reason to believe this information was distorted or fabricated but the admissions blog post itself is not.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1ckvgo/woman_who_works_at_college_admissions_rejects/
Mensrights reddit is not on board with this. One commenter who says they know about the Georgetown admissions process asserts that there is major gaps between their knowledge of it and how the blogger portrayed the process. This includes discrepancies between dates and the fact that admissions isn’t even run by a single person. Another commenter says there’s a committee involved in judging admissions. Putting this much effort into portraying your post as containing faulty information just so you can brag about seriously incriminating and illegal evidence is extremely implausible to me.

To recap:
– There’s no evidence the post about trashing admissions is factual, and other evidence indicates it wasn’t
– There is insubstantial evidence the blogger was Arianna
– It is advisable to wait until there is substantial evidence before you declare it as true

Additionally:
– I haven’t seen evidence Arianna was ever in charge of admissions (feel free to correct)
– The consequences of the conspiracy would have to be public or fabricated: the university publishes statistics about their admissions, and any number of people would have to cover it up or there’d be a suspicious spike in certain demographics
– The total number of people in the U involved in the conspiracy if all of it were true would be implausibly high
– Presumption of innocence has apparently gone to hell, and of all people to do it

Elam responds with this feeble bit of hand-waving:

I agree with much of what you post here, which is exactly why an affirmative response to the NCFM letter from GU is in order, vs the removal of information about Pattek from their website.

It is in the light of day where the lingering questions about this can be answered.

No, Paul, that’s not how journalism works. You get your facts straight BEFORE you publish. You don’t publish dubious — and in this case demonstrably false — information and wait for others to prove it wrong in the “light of day.”

This whole incident is shining a lot of daylight onto AVFM, and what it reveals is none too pretty — albeit not suprising in the least.

Thanks, Cloudiah, for bringing the Georgetown response and these comments to our attention.

EDITED AGAIN: The same Men’s Rights forum that thoroughly doxed the red-haired Canadian activst I wrote about earlier this week has also doxed Pattek, albeit less thoroughly; I’m not going to link to it. Some other sites that have wrongly trashed Pettek: ReyekoMRA, a conspiracy-mongering site ironically called What Really Happened, and Stormfront. Yes, THAT Stormfront, the hangout for white supremecists.

What’s amazing to me is that the discussion on Stormfront, despite being racist as fuck, actually shows more evidence of critical thought than the discussions of the AVFM regulars. Posting in the Stormfront thread, David Duke — yes, THAT David Duke — is critical enough to think that “feminist conservative’s” blog is bogus. Others are similarly skeptical. Meanwhile, another commenter there is able to figure out that whether or not the blog is bogus, there’s no way Pattek wrote it.

So it’s official: Paul Elam is dumber, and more blinded by hate, than David Duke.

I’m going to write Pattek a supportive email. (If you can’t find her email account, I can send you the email of hers I’m using.)

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timetravellingfool
8 years ago

Yeah, no one would ever disagree with anyone here. Obnoxiously. And then get called out for it. Twice. Never happen, ever.

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
8 years ago

Pfh, I disagree with your assertion. I question the veracity of the notion that you get called out twice, since that’d never happen.

And if you have any actual facts to the contrary, don’t show me – I won’t change my mind, since I can’t.

Wait no, that’d mean I agree with you and wouldn’t question the veracity of your claims… Arh.

Being a feminist stooge is hard work.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

Muntyboy should probably apply to go live in AntZ’s all-male paradise on whichever side of the Mississipi (or was it Missouri?) River the dudes will hang out.

Though since none of these misogynists seem to have any sexual attraction to men, I’m not quite sure that would stop them whining.

Marie
8 years ago

@CarleyBlue

I would say that about 75% of the young men I know hate (and I mean viciously hate) feminism and feminists.

Wow. ::suddenly faith in men lowered:: ::like a lot lowered:: I mean, viciously hate?

@cassandrasays

So, I meet a lot of very young people (as in half my age or less) through work, and I have to say, I’m not seeing the pattern you are. Maybe it’s a differing social groups thing?

okay, glad to hear that *whew* (can’t ad my own sample cuz I don’t get out much…)

@markminter

tl;dr. I mean, if you’re going to be hateful and creepy, at least be concise.

@Fibinachi

Although I cannot help but admire your poem adapting abilities, I’ve liked that poem when I heard it before, and I’m sure it will not be the same now 😉

pecunium
8 years ago

carnation: The fear of an unhinged MRA finding and harming a doxxed woman is understandable – but it’s a fear that MRAs want feminists to feel, and, like a lot of fears, it’s highly unlikely to be realised

I agree, sort of. The odds of any specific MRA doing anything, slim. The odds of any specific woman being targeted, slim.

The odds of someone who is influenced by the MRM is a bit harder to say won’t happen.

And that uncertainty is what they want to raise from the level of treating like a tornado, or an earthquake, to something more akin to a traffic accident, not likely ; on the whole, but something one has to take steps against.

I have to say I am more of Carlyblue’s line of thinking. There are MRAs who are figuring out how to work the system. I’ve said it before, they got onto a panel reviewing DV/Family Court Legislation. There weren’t any dedicated feminists on the panel and they got the recomendations to reflect MRM talking points.

Those MRAs are actually glad to see (I think) AVfM, and The Spearhead being Keystone Cops. It makes them seem more reasonable. The can deny affiliation, and toss them under the bus, which makes them look “reasonable”, even though what they are saying is only different in style, not substance.

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
8 years ago

Nah, the original is better. I’m just too frazzled to be clever today and picked the easy option of adapting work.

Because thinking is hard, and I’m a feminist stooge, and can’t do hard work! Obviously. 😀

@Kittehserf

It wouldn’t. It’d take them exactly six seconds to go from “Awesome, no girls allowed” to “Aww shucks, no girls wants to hang out in an all man island! The hateful sluts can’t stand men!”

timetravellingfool
8 years ago

Was the original poem meant with a bit of a dark undertone, or do I just read it with an unnecessarily sarcastic voice?

timetravellingfool
8 years ago

Fibinachi, it was plenty clever!!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

There’s no question that they’re dangerous, and would be more so if they figured out how to work the system. Which is why it fills me with glee when their attempts at activism are so poorly aimed.

I do see a rising tendency towards a very specific kind of sexism among young men, but it’s narrowly focused on sex and sexual expectations. A lot of the raging out that we see online from young men seems to be based on those (completely unrealistic) sexual expectations not being met.

Kielbasa
Kielbasa
8 years ago

I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed that Mark is a poor writer. I feel like Internet comments in general could stand to acquire a volunteer force of proofreaders.

katz
8 years ago

Realized I have no idea. I really don’t know any young people IRL anymore.

Helen
8 years ago

Can you ever imagine women doing that? Actually policing themselves? Insisting on a movement based on truth and willing to attack another women if they doubted her veracity in her claims.

ROFLMAO. The guy’s obviously never read anything on tumblr. or for that matter, any recent feminist output at all…

Kielbasa
Kielbasa
8 years ago
Reply to  Kittehserf

Also, thanks Kitteh! Yours are also precious!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

BTW this is one of those weird issues where left and right interact in odd ways. A lot of the weird sexual expectations are about porn, and in general right wing people don’t approve of porn, and people who’re in the middle or leaning slightly left don’t particularly care about porn as an issue, and then when you get further to the left you get people who care again, but for totally different reasons. So the whole issue of sex and sexual expectations is where you’re most likely to see dudes who’re in every other way liberal or leftist saying the same sexist shit that right wing people say.

This isn’t a new dynamic, same issue came up in the hippie movements of the 60s and 70s, and gave birth to an entire wave of feminism as a result.

Carleyblue
Carleyblue
8 years ago

@ Marie

Maybe ‘viciously hate’ is going a bit far, but yeah, these are not exactly demonstrative guys, and I can hear the hate and anger in their voices whenever the topic of feminism comes up. After a few unfortunate arguments, I try to steer the topic in another direction when it comes up.

I am going to a conference on women’s writing in about a month. I was with a friend last night and mentioned an upcoming conference. He asked what it was about, so I told him. He then said that I was really going to stand out in that crowd (because, you know, all feminists or women interested in women’s rights must be ugly…). He added: ‘So when are you going to a conference about something that actually matters?’ Really? Just… really? And this is a really nice guy usually, honestly.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The idea that women in general and feminists in particular never disagree or police each other is the funniest thing I’ve heard all week. Well done, Minty. Just don’t ever read the comments section at Feministe if you want to keep that particular illusion intact.

Marie
8 years ago

@Carleyblue

I feel like I would have a hard time being friends with those guys…

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ Carlyblue

I think we’re talking about different kinds of sexism here. There’s the sort of dismissive sexism that you’re talking about with your friend and the conference, and then there’s the rage-filled wish to smite women for being uppity that the MRM revolves around. They’re related, but not the same, I think.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Also, to be more succinct – with the young guys I think it’s all about sex. What they’ve been taught by media, particularly porn, to expect as “normal” versus what they encounter in reality. A lot of them seem to rage out when they realize that their porny dreams of hot and cold running blow jobs any time they want them are not going to pan out.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

“Realized I have no idea. I really don’t know any young people IRL anymore.”

Ditto.

Carleyblue
Carleyblue
8 years ago

@ CassandraSays

Yeah, you’re right. This guy isn’t an ‘MRA’ type. He is older, anyway.

@Marie

I wouldn’t be friends with them if they weren’t usually nice. Kind of put a damper on the whole evening, though…

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Aw, Minty’s back with his poorly written fantasies. Dude, get a Real Doll.

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
8 years ago

@CassandraSays:

Really? That’s a thing that happens to young guys these days? How… strange. And terrifying.

@Hellkell:

Hey, Real Dolls take a lot of abuse and work great for masturbatory aids… but I think forcing it to sit through Minters ravening madness would be out right vandalism, probably admissible in court as distinct rage against property q:

Marie
8 years ago

@carleyblue

I wouldn’t be friends with them if they weren’t usually nice. Kind of put a damper on the whole evening, though…

oh yeah, that makes sense, I wasn’t trying to say you should be. I just have this thing where even around people who are usually fun I’ve got a harder time being around them when they spew -ism bs. I hope that made sense. So it’s probably just a me (or people like me) thing.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

It really is odd how a certain kind of young man can link everything to the sex he’s not getting. Conversation about the lack of gender parity in STEM fields? Yeah well at least the girls who aren’t getting into those fields can get laid! Conversation about workplace discrimination? Yeah, well, that underpaid admin can get laid any time she wants! And so on. It’s lulzy.

pecunium
8 years ago

TTF: It’s Dylan Thomas, it’s meant to have a dark undertone, it was about his father dying.

pecunium
8 years ago

Minter: Can you ever imagine women doing that? Actually policing themselves? Insisting on a movement based on truth and willing to attack another women if they doubted her veracity in her claims.

I don’t need to imagine it. I can look at feminism and see it. It happens here. You can’t see it, but that’s a personal problem.

Of course, rest assured that if the woman that is claimed is not the writer, then the real writer will be found.

That, son, is what I mean by a personal problem. You have decided (absent evidence, actually, contra evidence) that this is true. That there is a woman who did this, and then boasted of it.

This is a very big issue to men, this deep seated belief that there is a real war for dominance going on between men and women.

You hit it on the head… belief. It’s sort of like phlogiston.

As to loving, “The Gender War”, it’s not a war. It’s an argument. In the critical fora of debate, your side is losing; the same way reactionaries are losing on the same-sex marriage question. Yes, in the MRM it’s being valorised as an existential crisis, but for anyone who isn’t invested in women being a second class person, it’s not.

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
8 years ago

Well, isn’t that pretty standard?

“I want this thing which I am not receiving, and my frustrated desires cause me to twist everything into an example of how the world taunts me with perky, perky breasts…”

For a great example, look at Mark Minter. (Hi Mark!)

Using a direct statement as a platform for his philosophy, using Davids links and comments as a way to talk about himself, using this specific case of people doxxing the wrong person to talk about how all men are under discrimination and how women need to suffer, how they’re the enemy. He even manages to slip in a slam against the “criterion of hiring” shifting to favor women and how this is bad for men, because they can’t dominate women or any more or something?

Narcissism! It’s not just for the Greeks any more.

It also always follows the same pattern.

“Oh but they always…”
“… So I’m allowed to…”
“Because they already…”
“… And I’m right to think so on account of…”
“… Because all… always try to…”
“And really, I’m just trying to… which is why you should allow me to…”

Magic. Bloody magic. It’s like an ad-lip of denial and misery and confirmation bias!

“Oh, but they always get laid whenever they want so I’m allowed to want to sleep with everyone and cheat on my partner because they always try to make men suffer and I’m right to think so on account of the many examples of misandry because all women always try to trick men into a sexless relationship and really, I’m just trying to help us all relieve some pressure which is why you should allow me to touch your breasts”.

Grumble.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

This dynamic is particularly strong in many geek spaces, hence the recurring drama about conventions, what men think they should be allowed to do to women at conventions, their screams of outrage when women say “nope, knock it off”, and so on.

timetravellingfool
8 years ago

@ pecunium- huh- weird the things you remember

timetravellingfool
8 years ago

not you, i mean weird i remembered that

timetravellingfool
8 years ago

Ah yes, we tricked them into looking like assholes by setting up an asshole trap!! how devious!!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I feel like we need a flowchart to keep track of all their conspiracy theories.

Bostonian
Bostonian
8 years ago

I’M NOT SAYING IT WAS ALIENS….

BUT IT WAS TOTALLY ALIENS!

opheliamonarch
opheliamonarch
8 years ago

Don’t know if anyone’s still on this thread but the whole paranoid MRA, oh it’s a feminist conspiracy reminded me of the lovely Mitchell and Webb sketches.

Oh and Fibinachi, I loved the poem, I’m gonna print it out on my new printer! 🙂

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Behind here, again, but this —

“OT: Do people think it would be OK for me to repost something from the fora (the public part, obvy) on my blog? It’s publicly accessible already but I feel odd about it because a lot of the people who participated are no longer around to ask.

(Specifically: I wanted to repost our Save the Pearls thread to my lit crit blog.)”

I’m fine with it and Ami and DSC are both on twitter if you want to ask them that way. (I may still have the damned PDF of it too…gods that thing was horrible)

Kittehserf
8 years ago

Was it called Save the Pearls? What section was it in?

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

What? No citations for all the women (apparently women are in charge of most employment) who throw men’s resumes in the garbage?

Oh, look at this, an actually piece of reality:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/09/business/economy/recovery-has-brought-more-jobs-for-men-than-women.html?_r=0

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Shiraz: reality has never stopped them before.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Kitteh — http://manboobz.forummotion.com/t1035-new-vanity-published-book-imagines-white-people-as-oppressed-what-the-fuck-is-this-s

It’s a thread about potentially the worst book ever written — Save the Pearls. And I’m not even kidding, the writing is atrocious in it’s own right, the topic is all kinds of racism (I mean all kinds — both depth and breadth) and it’s truly rape-tastic in places. Which is completely ignoring the fact that science doesn’t work like that for a good 75% of the sci in her sci-fi.

Racist furry porn in parts. And the damned premise had promise! (I still think the human-animal he’s transformed into, and some cyber-punk dystopia, could’ve worked…just, remove all the rest of the plot. Now.)

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Racist furry porn. I just… no.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Hellkell: “Shiraz: reality has never stopped them before.”

Oh, but I wish it would.

becausescience
becausescience
8 years ago

A lot of mra rhetoric reminds me of this article on Slate about the guy who crashed his plane into the IRS building a few years back and left a manifesto explaining his actions (what IS it with these guys and manifestos?). The piece itself describes traits common to mass murderers.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2010/02/seven_deadly_traits.html

The traits are:

Narcicism/egocentricity
Grandiosity
Martyr/Injustice collector
Superiority masking as self-loathing (projection)
Isolationist thinking
Construing selfishness as selflessness
Helplessness/Hopelessness

Reading through each trait, they type of thinking described there sounds an awfully lot like the attitudes prevalent within the mra movement.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Becausescience: “The traits are:

Narcicism/egocentricity
Grandiosity
Martyr/Injustice collector
Superiority masking as self-loathing (projection)
Isolationist thinking
Construing selfishness as selflessness
Helplessness/Hopelessness

Reading through each trait, they type of thinking described there sounds an awfully lot like the attitudes prevalent within the mra movement.”

Yes. You nailed it.

becausescience
becausescience
8 years ago

On a more positive note though, the other day there was a thread on Reddit from a former anti-feminist who said coming across Manboobz was one of the things that opened their eyes to how fucked up the mrm was and now they’re embarrassed about that whole period of their life and want to learn more about feminism.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

That is positive. Congrats, David, you opened someone’s eyes.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

Strewth, that book sounds so bad it’d get rubbished on the writing site I used to be on, and the reviewers there weren’t exactly the world’s best.

Marie
8 years ago

@becausescience

Yay! That’s good to hear. Wonder if the mras are still thinking all publicity is good publicity 😉

becausescience
becausescience
8 years ago

Regarding mra’s seeming like they’re everywhere online, it also helps to remember that mra’s intentionally seek out comments sections of articles relating to feminism, domestic violence, rape, gender issues, etc. and flood them with angry comments as a way of spreading propaganda.

I also remember someone mentioning that some mra’s literally copy/paste the same exact wall of mra talking points and spam them across multiple sites.