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A 12-Step program to help A Voice for Men cure its addiction to hate

I'm pretty sure these guys thought they were a human rights movement too.
I’m pretty sure these guys thought they were some sort of  human rights movement too.

Asha James – otherwise known as TyphonBlue – has taken issue with something I wrote about A Voice for Men, the hate site she has chosen to affiliate herself with. In my post detailing the hundreds of horrendous and disgusting threats and abusive comments one Canadian feminist has received after she appeared in a YouTube video that was heavily promoted on A Voice for Men and other Men’s Rights sites, I wrote that AVFM had only distanced itself in a “superficial way from some of the harassment it has played a central role in unleashing.”

Ms. James, posting on Reddit, was unhappy with my use of the word “superficial.”

typhontwo

No, I do not think you are obliged to stop talking about her, or anyone you wish to talk about.

But you asked for suggestions as to WHAT MORE YOU CAN DO, and so I have some for you.

In fact, I have an entire 12-step Program to help you and your colleagues at A Voice for Men fight your addiction to hate.

1) Let’s start small. If you’re going to make such a big deal out of how you and your AVFM colleagues are removing the red-haired activist’s personal information from your site, you might want to, you know, actually remove her personal information from the site?  Links to her dating profiles remain up in the AVFM forum.

2) Recognize that doxing is not the only form of harassment there is, and remove the post and the comments referring to the Canadian activist as “Little red frothing fornication mouth,” which is, I think even you have to admit, a kind of a hate-y thing to say about somebody. Remove the comments calling her a “bitch” and a “cunt” and a “bint.” Remove the barely comprehensible but clearly hateful comment from AVFM contributor Dr. F (Ian Williams) comparing her to some sort of animal. Remove ImNotMraBut’s surreal, and exceedingly nasty, comment fantasizing about finding her body “at the back of the Women’s Locker room, crucified up-side down and set on fire with Lard from the Federal Pork Barrel Buffet used as a substitute for Napalm.” I mean, what the hell.

3) Of course, this isn’t the first time that AVFM has launched a giant hatefest aimed at a particular woman. Oh, no. Not by a long shot. Indeed, launching campaigns of hatred against individual women (and, once in a long while, individual men) seems to be AVFM’s primary form of, er, “activism.” And it’s certainly the only kind of, er, “activism” it’s any good at.

It’s telling that AVFM rarely targets truly influential or even particularly famous women for its attacks, with the notable exception of one comedic actress. No, AVFM instead tends to target women it thinks it has a better chance of really hurting – from female bloggers and journalists to individual student activists. Going after vulnerable individuals: In this way, as in many other ways, the principals at AVFM think and act like abusers.

And so, Ms. James, after you and your colleagues are done taking down the vicious posts and comments about the red-haired activist, I would recommend that you and your colleagues at AVFM renounce altogether, and apologize for, the site’s strategy of demonizing individual women. While you’re at it, go back and scrub all posts and comments of misogynistic terms like “cunt” and “bitch” and “fuckmuffin,” either directed at individual women or at large swaths of womanhood. Scrub all posts and comments of the term “mangina.” I would provide links here, but I would have to pretty much link to every AVFM post and comment thread. (If anyone can find posts and/or comment threads on AVFM that are actually free of misogynistic language, please let me know.)

4) Then take down Register-Her, your phony “offenders registry” devoted to demonizing feminist writers and activists as well as other women (from “Mommy bloggers” to comedic actresses) who have somehow managed to offend the AVFM crowd.

In no way are writers like Jessica Valenti, or actresses like Katherine Heigl, or any of the other women listed as “bigots” on Register-Her the “moral equivalents” of the “pedophiles, rapists, murderers and other violent criminals” you have listed elsewhere on that site. Most of the alleged “bigotry” cited on Register-Her is trumped-up nonsense. Putting these women on your phony “registry” is a clear and deliberate attempt to intimidate them, both by making them fear for their personal safety and by deliberately trying to tarnish their reputation and hurt  their chances of future employment. Again, these are total douche moves on your part.

You can read more of the dirty details about Register-Her here, in case you’ve forgotten.

5) Stop using violent and threatening language when referring to your ideological opponents – and apologize for past instances in which such hateful language has been used. You might start off by having your boss Paul Elam apologize for his notorious comments suggesting that he finds feminist-bashing to be sexually arousing:

I find you, as a feminist, to be a loathsome, vile piece of human garbage.  I find you so pernicious and repugnant that the idea of fucking your shit up gives me an erection. …

We are coming for you, and we are coming for all the liars out there that have been ruining people’s lives with impunity. …

 You are SO fucked.

I know Mr. Elam is probably very proud of his work here, but you should know that to most decent human beings it comes off a tad, well, unhinged? As well as — here comes that H-word again! — hateful. Let’s put it this way: I’m fairly certain that this post by Mr. Elam will never end up next to Martin Luther King’s “Letter from Birmingham Jail” in any anthology of the writings of famous human rights visionaries.

6) And while you’re at it, drop the hateful and threatening (and rather potty-mouthed) slogan “Fuck Their Shit Up.” Is that really the slogan you want your site and your movement to be remembered by? Do you kiss your mother with that slogan?

7) Renounce the site’s policy “to seek out and make public the identities” of opponents, a policy reiterated as recently as last weekend by Mr. Elam. Now, Mr. Elam insists that this policy only applies to “individuals who break the law or who indisputably attempt to harass, bully or abridge the free expression of others in the furtherance of their ideology.” But a quick look at those listed in Register-Her’s “bigots” category makes clear that AVFM has an extreeeeeeemely broad notion of what counts as lawbreaking or harassment or bullying, at least when it comes to people who aren’t MRAs. How is Katherine Heigl breaking the law, or harassing or bullying or abridging anyone’s free expression?

8) After renouncing doxing as a policy, frankly apologize for each and every one of A Voice for Men’s threats to dox individual women in the past.

You might start by having Mr. Elam apologize for the comments he made on AVFM radio in which he said that Register-Her would be used to post the personal information of female “false accusers.” In case you have forgotten, here is the relevant clip from that radio show.

If for some reason that clip does not play properly on your computer, here’s the money quote:

[If] Mary Jane Rottencrotch out there wants to say that her husband beat her just for the sake of gaining leverage in a divorce, he will now have a resource where he can come and post your name, your picture, your work telephone number, your address, perhaps even your route that you take to get to work, if you bother to have a job.

Yes, that’s right: “the route that you take to get to work.”

In case you’ve forgotten this promise of his, you can find Mr. Elam’s comments on the AVFM radio show that ran on June 28, 2011 titled “FTSU Big Time.” They appear about ten minutes into the show.

Once Mr. Elam has clearly and publicly renounced this statement, I would suggest that he apologize for the $1000 bounty he once offered to anyone able to supply him with the personal information of a number of Swedish feminists.

No, that wasn’t a weird dream. He really did that.

9) Apologize for the cavalier attitude shown by AVFM’s principals to the possibility that revealing the personal information of opponents could  put these people in actual physical danger. You might start by having AVFM’s John Hembling (“John The Other”) apologize for these comments about the Swedish feminists targeted by AVFM, in which he frankly acknowledged the dangers that AVFM’s strategy could pose to the personal safety of those it was targeting:

Some individuals may criticize the intent to publish not only names, but also addresses, phone numbers, employers and other personal information – on the grounds that such exposure create a risk of retributive violence against individuals who openly advocate murder based on sex. It is the considered position of the editorial board of AVfM that any such risks are out-weighed by the ongoing hazard to the public of these individuals continuing to operate in anonymity.

Emphasis mine.

In case you are wondering, the feminists in question did not, in fact, “openly advocate murder based on sex,” or murder based on anything at all.  In an attempt to promote a theatrical production based on Valerie Solanas’ SCUM Manifesto, they made a brief video in which a woman pretended to shoot a man. You may find many examples of similar if much longer videos available on a site called Netflix. There’s even one called Basic Instinct in which actress Sharon Stone pretends to murder a man with an ice pick. No, really. With an ICE PICK! There are also videos in which men pretend to shoot other men, if you prefer that, and even some in which men pretend to kill women in a variety of inventive ways.

When he is done with that apology, Mr. Hembling may wish to apologize for another statement he made to me on the same subject:

jto

Mr. Hembling might want to then move on to apologizing for this statement of his, which he posted on AVFM and on the Men’s Rights subreddit as a sort of preemptive rebuttal to critics who might point out the obvious fact that posting someone’s personal information could put them at risk. (I’m not sure I’ve ever run across someone so insistently cavalier as Mr. Hembling about the possibility that something he’s done might cause someone else physical harm.)

If some pea-brain wishes to claim that publication and public accountability is dangerous because it might facilitate some bad-brained moron to engage in retributive violence – kindly provide a workable mechanism for public accountability which is totally and perfectly safe – then criticize us for not using it. Until then, SFTU.

And you, Ms. James, may wish to apologize for your own blithe dismissal of the sort of harassment that the red-haired activist has been receiving.

typhonkafoodle

If you had read the post of mine you were ostensibly responding to, you would have seen that the activist in question did in fact get one very blunt and direct death threat. (And she did report it to police.)

She also received not one, not two, but literally of hundreds of other threatening comments, many of them wishing death, rape or other forms of physical and/or sexual violence upon her, with one YouTube commenter going so far as to announce –TRIGGER WARNING – that he “would actually cum while cutting that bitch’s throat.”

It may be possible for some people to brush off one or even several “I hope you die” comments. It’s a bit harder to brush off several hundred of them – especially when some of these threatening remarks contain your address and phone number. That’s not really “kafoodling,” now, is it?

I’m a little perplexed that you didn’t understand this, as I posted literally dozens of examples of these comments in my earlier post. You did read that, didn’t you? I mean, you were offering your opinions about it in a public space, so I can only assume you read it, then somehow instantly forgot the dozens of horrendous comments I posted there, which were of course only a fraction of the total number received by the activist you and your colleagues hate so much. (There’s that pesky H-word again!)

10) Remove the personal photos of feminist writer Jessica Valenti that Mr. Elam posted to AVFM without her permission in an attempt to embarrass her. I won’t link to the post in this case; you can find it. I’m not quite sure that Mr. Elam realizes that by posting these photos he’s embarrassed himself far more than he’s embarrassed Valenti, as his actions reveal him to be a sad, angry, petulant old man, and one obviously jealous that Valenti, roughly half his age, has already had a far more successful career as a writer than he ever will. Also, she’s not a morally bankrupt asshat.

11) Publicly renounce and ban AVFM contributors and commenters who have engaged in doxing,  threatening or harassing of opponents. You might start by banning long-time AVFM “activist” Frank James Spencer, otherwise known as KARMA MRA MGTOW, who recently gave me a decidedly non-friendly phone call at 1:38 AM to inform me, in falsetto, that “feminism will die,” a classic example of the sort of personal harassment that you would think anyone purporting to be in a “human rights movement” would want to distance itself from.

12) And finally: Take down, and apologize for posting, the terrorist manifesto by Men’s Rights Activist Thomas Ball you’ve got up in your site’s “activism” section. You know, the one that calls on men to literally firebomb courthouses and police stations, and which frankly acknowledges that such firebombing could very well cause many deaths.

I can’t believe that any group purporting to advocate for “human rights” would want to have this on their website, especially in the wake of the recent events in Boston.

Do any of you people have any sort of moral compass at all? Do you even know what a moral compass is?

Of course, I am under no illusion that AVFM will take even one of the twelve steps I have recommended. I spelled them out mainly to make a simple point:

After years and years of this shit, after literally offering literal $1,000 bounties for the personal information of your enemies, and while a literal terrorist manifesto remains posted on your website, you don’t really get to pretend that you’re shocked – shocked! – to find doxing and harassing going on in your Men’s Rights movement.

And this has implications beyond A Voice for Men and those associated with it.

A Voice for Men has, for better or worse, made itself the most influential Men’s Rights site online, and has begun bringing its particular form of “activism” to the real world as well. As such, helps to set the tone for the Men’s Rights movement as a whole, and to define the movement in the eyes of the public. And you guys are doing a bang-up job of it, he said sarcastically.

By sometimes excusing, other times encouraging, and in some cases directly fomenting, campaigns of bullying and harassment aimed at individual women, AVFM is helping to ensure that the entire Men’s Rights Movement, such as it is, goes down in history not as a human rights movement but as a reactionary hate group that has more in common with the White Citizens Councils of the 1950s and 1960s than with, say, the civil rights movement of Dr. Martin Luther King.

Ms. James: The people harassing and doxing and threatening to dox women are your people – some of them quite  literally your regular readers and commenters and contributors, and others “your people” in spirit. That is, hateful, spiteful misogynists and would-be terrorizers of women. These are your people, and you’re welcome to them.

But there are a lot more of us out there than there are of you, and ultimately you and the rest of the so-called Men’s Rights Movement — sorry, Men’s Human Rights Movement — will go the ways of the White Citizens Councils you’re increasingly growing to resemble.

NOTE TO MRA DOOFUSES: Yes, I am using the real names of the AVFM folks. Lest you assume I am doxing them, you should probably know that the AVFM folks, after several years of hypocritically doxing people while claiming it was unfair for anyone to know their real names, finally gave up and started using their real names on their site. Heck, I didn’t know That Typhon Blue wasn’t actually named Typhon Blue until I read it on AVFM recently. This makes me wonder about other weird names I’ve run across. Might they be fake too? Surely “Wolf Blitzer” can’t be that guy’s real name. It’s probably just “Wally Blevins” or something like that.

NOTE TO FANS OF CORRECT SPELLING: Sorry for the typo in the name of the sound clip. I’m not sure how to fix it and too lazy to find out.

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Mary
Mary
7 years ago

BRAVO!
I’ve gotta say, this might be one of the best posts here I’ve ever read. You just pretty much outlined every problem with the Men’s Rights Movement in one post.

Lauren
Lauren
7 years ago

Thank you for the work you do on this site.

deezers
7 years ago

Is a fuckmuffin like a fleshlight that you can eat after?

deezers
7 years ago

Fuck Their Shit Up.

I like this, it really encapsulates the struggle to create fairer family courts

longshangui
longshangui
7 years ago

Yes, Bravo! Extraordinary journalism!

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Too bad they won’t take any of this advice. What they will do is come in and whine that you’re not being faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiir to them. In B4 that mess.

Ashley
7 years ago

ACFM are extremely angry and hateful, which is funny because they criticize women for being angry and hateful. It’s funny how the world work. 🙂

Ashley
7 years ago

^AVFM

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
7 years ago

*Applause*

These last few discussion threads have been absolute bears to read. But this is an excellen post, David.

princessbonbon
7 years ago

It is so depressing that nothing will change. No one at AVfM will change. None. They would be crowing within minutes if the heard someone that they released the personal information on was murdered. Probably be a banner headline on their webpage.

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
7 years ago

For all the offense they took at being discussed on SPLC (being discussed, not yet being termed a “hate group”), they sure are working hard to behave like any other hate group.

Protip: when you continuously use violent rhetoric, when you say you are “at war” with a particular group and encourage people to harass, intimidate, and commit violence against your enemy, you might be a hate group.

Maude LL
Maude LL
7 years ago

Yes, good work. That must’ve been tedious.

Historophilia
Historophilia
7 years ago

deezers, I’m thinking more the apple pie scene in American Pie.

TRTina
TRTina
7 years ago

Judas Priest…by the way, who posted under my name….

You know not my name
You know not my name
7 years ago

Of course they use their real names on MRA sites. For all their talk about terrorist feminists, they really *do* know they’ve got nothing to fear. I’ve yet to see a route to their houses, or their phone numbers posted up in public. They’re cowards, and they rely on the fact that feminists don’t do this sort of thing. Hell, they didn’t even kill Erin Pizzey’s dog (she said recently on an redditAMA someone *shot* the dog, and she just believes it’s feminists without any proof whatsoever).

They really won’t be happy until someone gets killed, and then they’ll gloat and crow from the rooftops and talk about how they FTSU and how AVFM has !MOAR HITS THAN EVA!!! It’s exactly what they want – someone to die so they’ll get attention. Every woman (because as David rightly points out, they haven’t gone for men or powerful people – ya’ know, like the guys who have the ability to send them to war that they’re always whining about) should keep safe, and know that Paul Elam is just waiting for their deaths.

An Inconvenient Truth
An Inconvenient Truth
7 years ago

Scrub all posts and comments of the term “mangina.”

lol u mad bro?

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Shut up, Truthy.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

Truthy, long time no see, how you doing?

David’s not mad, he’s contemptuous.

Cthulhu's Intern
7 years ago

Very good list, David. Just one question: Why is #12 the last step? Wouldn’t it make more sense to make it one of the first steps?

I also don’t know why you even have to say this. Every single one of these points should be incredibly obvious.

Also, that “edible fleshlight” idea reminds me of the game Limp Biscuit. In which a bunch of obvious Harvard scholars masturbate over a biscuit and all have to ejaculate on it. The last one to climax has to eat it. Yes, it is also most likely where that one shitty band got their name. I am very ashamed that I know that. And before you ask, no, I have never played it. So could “fuckmuffin” be a variant of that game but with a muffin?

Osfos
Osfos
7 years ago

A real 12-step program would be:

1) We admitted we were powerless over our misogyny, that it had ruined our lives.

2) We put our faith in a higher power, humbly asking them to cure our misogyny.

etc etc

Mark Jones
Mark Jones
7 years ago

AVFM readers thank you for the publicity.
It was actually through manboobz and the Boob Roll that I discovered AVFM and half a dozen sites I read regularly now.
Mucho gracias.senor Boobzy.

Cthulhu's Intern
7 years ago

Of course, Truthiness is going to pay attention to David telling the MRM to purge what’s probably the least offensive of all the terrible things the MRM does.

Aaliyah
7 years ago

Scrub all posts and comments of the term “mangina.”

lol u mad bro?

I must ask the same question myself. After all, insulting men by using a misogynist word against them is hardly something I’d call sexist. And it certainly doesn’t alienate men who have feminine characteristics and men who are gay. Not at all.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

AVFM readers thank you for the publicity

Still fucking this chicken, eh minty? No one’s buying that this doesn’t bother you.

Fade
7 years ago

@Marky

Well, manboobz is where I met awesome people, so it has the potential to help non misogynists too.

also, I’m really bad at spanish grammer but I could swear it’s “muchas gracias”

guz
guz
7 years ago

The Amazing Atheist has also posted a Video about her with over half a million views; all her personal information is mentioned repeatedly in the comments to said video. He also called her the most disgusting person alive.

palmedfire
7 years ago

also, I’m really bad at spanish grammer but I could swear it’s “muchas gracias”

Proper adjective/noun agreement is MISANDRY!

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
7 years ago

Well, manboobz is where I met awesome people, so it has the potential to help non misogynists too.

This. This is my little community where I go every day to share kitties, food, mockery, and good times. You guys are awesome.

timetravellingfool
7 years ago

My applause scared my cat. Bittersweet victory.

Mark Jones
Mark Jones
7 years ago

It’s like unrequited love.
There’s barely a mention of manboobz on AVFM anymore, whereas readers here are obsessed with everything that AVFM does.
More kitteh videos!!

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Maybe if you guys stopped being such unrepentant skidmarks, we’d stop mentioning AVfM.

timetravellingfool
7 years ago

@ Fade- I’m definitely one of the ones it helped!! I was surrounded by dudes pursuing my passion, and the list of misogynistic things they said every day just kept eating away at me. I’d read a lot of good analyses on toxic dude-culture and male privilege, but nothing came as near a relief as to read this site and hear the sexist arguments I hear from privileged assholes every day being deconstructed and mocked in such a clever way!! It is my sanity pill at the end of the day.

cloudiah
7 years ago

also, I’m really bad at spanish grammer but I could swear it’s “muchas gracias”

For suggesting he should respect another culture’s language, you are clearly a racist!

/sarcasm

David, seriously, this may have been your best yet. Huzzah! And thanks for doing what you do so well.

Mark Jones
Mark Jones
7 years ago

“Maybe if you guys stopped being such unrepentant skidmarks, we’d stop mentioning AVfM.”

Nah, all the mentions help drive up AVFM’s readership.
win/win

cloudiah
7 years ago

Shut up Mark. You’re a terrible person, and still notice how we’re not threatening you? That’s the difference between feminists and your fellow travelers.

timetravellingfool
7 years ago

Well you’re here, Marky. Here to thank Dave for pointing out your assholishness so you can get all the bad attention you were denied as a child I suppose, but you still can’t seem to leave. And let me assure you, your love for this place- definitely unrequited.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Too bad all AVfM’s readership reads while moving their lips.

leftwingfox
7 years ago

I swear I can’t hear “fuckmuffin” without thinking of Oglaf.

“Are… are you fucking the desert?”

“Oh, no. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to eat this now.”

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
7 years ago

whereas readers here are obsessed with everything that AVFM does.

You are a member of a hate group who supports terrorism. Own it.

Maude LL
Maude LL
7 years ago

“all the mentions help drive up AVFM’s readership”

That’s why it’s now widely regarded as a hate group.

timetravellingfool
7 years ago

Ugh, commas- surrounded by dudes, pursuing my passion. Not surrounded by dudes pursuing my passion.

Buntzums
Buntzums
7 years ago

Look at all those nice men dressed as ice cream cones… One need look no further than manboobz for up to date information on MRA’s. I have looked into the claims stated here.

In the beginning I looked only at the name, as some of my MRA subscribers on YouTube told me about it. They had been complaining about how they were portrayed. Being innocent of the ways of Menz I assumed they were telling the truth. It wasn’t until John started offering money for information on people that I realized the MRA were a hate movement. I had looked at the name of Manboobz and said “Who would go to a sight called Manboobz for information on the MRA’s?” but over time I came to respect this website and it’s creator.

Thank you for all the wonderful and informative posts (and for the kitten posts as well.) I give you nothing but love, respect and support.

Peace out.

Mark Jones
Mark Jones
7 years ago

“Shut up Mark. You’re a terrible person, and still notice how we’re not threatening you? ”

Wouldn’t bother me if you did. How frightening can a group of people who require trigger warnings to prevent them from fainting while reading blog posts be?

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
7 years ago

Hey Minty, you know what else this site does? It makes a quick and easy compendium of the filth of MRAs and their “movement”. I show this site to friends and family who’ve never heard of you.. And the reaction is unanumously one of disgust towards MRAs. I showed this site to a friend of mine who had some very misogynistic nice guy thinking. And the result? He’s sworn off his previous lifestyle and is working to become a decent guy. This is a guy who used to find the bitches be crazy/rape jokes and other assorted shit that passes as manliness as funny. You disgust him.

For every dude that joins your little reactionary hate brigade, there are at least two more who read what you are, turn off the monitor and seriously question where their misogynistic thinking is leading them. They think about who they’ve become as opposed who they thought they were and who they want to be.

So keep on posting Minty, because you are exactly the instructive tool I need to convince more people that misogyny is toxic, and that feminism is nothing like they were told it was.

To David and all the regular boobzers, keep it coming because as frustrating as it is to keep slogging through the bullshit, it has a positive impact. Aslo, we’ve totally busted the humorless feminist myth in certain circles. Apparently, me being a playful goof off in real life wasn’t quite enough. Sorry.

katz
7 years ago

Ugh, commas- surrounded by dudes, pursuing my passion. Not surrounded by dudes pursuing my passion.

I was wondering about that. Although the original way makes your life sound like a Jane Austen novel.

Briznecko
Briznecko
7 years ago

Mark, why do you skip off to read your new blogs then?

Hopefully he’ll step on legos in the process.

dixie1
dixie1
7 years ago

Thanks for the continued publicity. We don’t even have to pay for it.

This post should be made into one of those Lifetime movies or Sunday movie of the week thingies.

The Chronicles of David Futrelle: Life and Times of a Cry Baby.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Of course Mark would think trigger warnings are some coddling, new age bullshit instead of basic politeness. MRAs have always failed Basic Manners 101.

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