So the Men’s Rights subreddit has temporarily relaxed its policy of not allowing links to the terrible cesspool of lies that is Man Boobz to allow this post attacking me for detailing the disgusting threats and harassment a certain Canadian feminist activist has faced in recent days.
Most of the commenters flatly ignored the evidence of doxing and harassment that I included in my post — if they even bothered to read it — and simply invented their own story of what had happened. Instead of denouncing those who left death threats, they attacked me and the activist in question. And blamed all the ugliness on “trolls.”
Men’s Rights regular Sigil1, who used to post awful comments on Man Boobz as Eoghan (and using countless other sockpuppet accounts) responded in an all-too-predictable fashion, by falsely accusing me of making “false accusations” against MRAs.
You may recall that in my post I offered two pieces of evidence that showed that MRAs were involved in posting this woman’s personal information on the internet — that is, doxing her. One was a large screenshot from a Men’s Rights forum containing a wide array of her personal information including phone numbers and her home address. I also noted that the A Voice for Men forum featured links to several of her dating profiles.
In other words, these are clearly MRAs, and they have been disseminating her personal information — that is, doxing — her. To repeat, and I’m sorry that I have to repeat such an utterly simpleminded point: THE FACT THAT SOME PEOPLE (WHO ARE MRAS) ARE DOXING HER MEANS THAT MRAS HAVE BEEN DOXING HER. Other people who are probably not MRAs have also been doxing her.
In the Reddit thread, giegerwasright complains that “they” — meaning me –“are also moving the goalposts on doxxing to suit their needs.” Well, no. I’d say that a post on a Men’s Rights forum that includes her picture, links to her Facebook page, her Tumblr blog, her YouTube account, her old Twitter account, a dating profile, her home address and two phone numbers is “doxing” by pretty much everyone’s definition of the term.
As anyone who looks at the large screenshot I posted earlier would see, its author — a famous MRA spammer who goes by the name John Rambo — urged men to “contact her through one of the below methods and ask her why she hates men so much.”
In my earlier post I showed you the sort of horrific stuff many of those who have been contacting her have been saying.
Did I provide proof that any of these threatening and harassing comments were from MRAs? Well, aside from one message from A Voice for Men’s Dan Perrins, which was more of a gloating message than a threatening one, no. Part of the reason for this is that most of the direct threats sent to the activist were sent — wait for it — anonymously. That’s how threat-makers generally do things. Cuts down the possibility of getting in trouble.
As for the YouTube comments, I didn’t check. Why? Because, given that the video in question was titled “mras and feminists arguing at u of t mra event,” and that the video was linked to on assorted Men’s Rights sites including the Men’s Rights subreddit and A Voice for Men, I figured that the odds were pretty good that a lot of them were MRAs; certainly the odds that none of them were MRAs were pretty much zero. (And of course I never claimed they were all MRAs.)
But as I sat down to write this post I found I was curious about these nasty YouTube people. So I did a little experiment. I went through the list of awful YouTube comments that I posted on Monday, and took at look at the YouTube feeds of the various commenters who left them to see if I could determine whether or not they were MRAs. I included only those who made threatening and/or misogynist comments, and left out a few that didn’t provide enough information for me to make an educated guess.
Here are the results. But first, a TRIGGER WARNING, because I quote liberally from their nasty, violent and often crudely sexual comments. (You can skim down to my summary of what I found if you wish to avoid the gruesome details.)
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YouTuber Kilz Bryce, who wished a gruesome “death by cheese grater” to the red-haired activist (henceforth RHA), is an otherwise unassuming Japanese fan of Taylor Swift and Carly Rae Jepsen. VERDICT: Probably not an MRA.
Slurpos, who suggested shooting the RHA, is a racist conspiracy-monger who recently called MSNBC’s Melissa Harris-Perry a “slut.” VERDICT: Misogynist, but not a confirmed MRA.
Joris667, who suggested a “cock up the arse,” recently “liked” an antifeminist video by Mykeru, who just happens to be a contributor to A Voice for Men. VERDICT: Possibly an MRA.
Damndisplace07, who suggested punching the RHA, has posted a bunch of rambling, ranty misogynistic videos on YouTube, some of which rely heavily on Manosphere ideology and jargon. VERDICT: Probably an MRA.
BusinessmanBandit is a young entrepreneur and goldbug who likes referring to women as “bitches.” VERDICT: Misogynist, but not a confirmed MRA.
Lazywhiteb0y, who “would love to punch this annoying cunt directly in the face,” is a fan of rap, country music, guns and beer. VERDICT: Misogynist, but not a confirmed MRA.
Akranejames, who also favors punching “this type of feminist,” is mostly obsessed with video games. But he also made a recent comment suggesting that we should abandon feminism and “machism” for “equalism,” and the only people I’ve ever heard use that ridiculous term have been hopeless MRA types. VERDICT: Probably an MRA, or at least a sometime reader of Mens’ Rights sites.
Leinster4life13, who wanted to ship her to Saudi Arabia, is a soccer enthusiast who also recently “liked” a video by the notoriously misogynistic Manhood Academy. VERDICT: Probably an MRA, or at least an MRA-in-training.
Chocolateking1, who made a joke about keeping “bitches” in the kitchen, seems to be, well, the sort of trolly asshole who thinks jokes about keeping “bitches” in the kitchen. VERDICT: Misogynist, probably not an MRA.
MadDogFritz, who railed about “feminazi propaganda” and made three separate comments on three different videos demanding to know “who is the the red headed pig monster with the attitude,” has recently commented on a number of MRA videos and is also a big fan of TheAmazingAtheist and his antifeminist rants. Also has complained about “women’s lib.” VERDICT: Seems pretty damn MRAish to me.
Robert alakaka, who declared that the RHA is “one of the most unlikable cunts in his [?] existence,” and that he “sincerely hopes she dies,” is a raging misogynist and homophobe who recently “liked” a video featuring the MRA-ish “Dick Masterson” explaining how “men are better than women.” Aaaaand he’s a fan of TheAmazingAtheist. VERDICT: Definitely MRA-ish.
TheTrueValkyrie66, who compared the RHA unfavorably to goatse, is also a fan of TheAmazingAtheist and — wait for it — MyLittlePony. VERDICT: Probably not an MRA, but seems to have stepped straight out of the Big Book of Redditor Stereotypes.
HUEHEUHE HEUHEUEH, who made a generic misogynist remark, seems to be a Brony. VERDICT: Probably not an MRA.
EndlessCycleofPride, who declared “I hope you get raped,” is way into bodybuilding. VERDICT: Probably not an MRA, but a terrible person nonetheless.
Dominic Galvin, who declared “I want to punch her,” is a vintage car enthusiast and yet another fan of TheAmazingAtheist, especially his antifeminist rants. VERDICT: Possible MRA.
Corbbin Goldsmith, who suggested oral rape, is a software synth enthusiast and bedroom musician. VERDICT: An awful person, but there’s no indication he’s an MRA.
Amaurypenseur, who thinks that “feminists deserve rape as punishment,” is a weird Belgian who hates American culture, “hanker[s for] a society based on war, inequality and irrationally,” and is a sort-of fan of, um, Hitler. Verdict: Antifeminist (obviously) but probably not an MRA as such.
Theninja36, who wanted to “punch her in the face,” is a American gamer who seems a tad obsessed with Japan. VERDICT: Clearly hates feminists, as several of his comments attest, but there’s no indication he’s an MRA.
About all I can tell about Jack Ofalltrades, who made a crude, racist sexual suggestion, is that he’s a fan of the XFactor. VERDICT: Probably not an MRA.
So what have we learned here, aside from the sad fact that going through the histories of a whole bunch of YouTubers takes a fuck of a lot longer than I thought it would when I started out? Well, a number of things.
Out of the nineteen horrible commenters I was able to determine anything about, only one, Chocolateking1, seems to even vaguely fit the stereotype of the amoral, lulz-seeking troll that our friend Sigil1 wants to blame for all this.
Most of the commenters have been on YouTube for some time, with most of them using the site as an outlet for their various obsessions, which may or may not include hating on feminism. In a few cases they seem to be posting under their real names, which makes it all the more amazing that they’re perfectly willing to post violent and/or sexual comments as if no one except the nasty feminists would find any of this at all objectionable. Virtually all of them seem to be genuinely and unashamedly misogynistic.
Eight of the nineteen commenters are explicitly antifeminist, which puts them more than halfway along the route to possible MRAhood. Six — roughly a third of the total — are probably MRAs, or at the very least consumers of Men’s Rights and/or Manosphere media. Four are fans of TheAmazingAtheist. (NOTE TO SELF: TheAmazingAtheist has some really, really shitty fans.)
So congratulations, fellas: only perhaps a third of the many hundreds of terrible people who have been harassing and threatening the activist in question on YouTube seem to be MRAs or MRA-adjacent. Given that the total number of MRAs in the world is probably less than the number of people who watched that one video, that’s pretty impressive.
The comments I looked at here, nonetheless, are only a small fraction of the total number of threatening and/or harassing comments about the red-haired activist that have been posted to YouTube, and that are still being posted as you read this. She also received hundreds of messages directly, most of them anonymous.
Even if most of these messages weren’t sent by people who identify explicitly as MRAs, a signficant proportion clearly were, so we’re still talking about many dozens, perhaps even hundreds, of MRAs and fellow travelers who decided that the appropriate response to the video of the red-haired activist was to fire off comments and messages calling her a “bitch” or a “cunt” or something equally odious — and/or suggesting that she should be punched, or raped or even killed.
This whole exercise has helped to make even clearer to me why so many MRAs have made their names posting videos on YouTube: Because YouTube is filled to overflowing with the sort of terrible people who think rape threats are hilarious and that GirlWritesWhat is a genius.
MRAs, these people are your audience. Your peeps. Your most likely source of future converts. (Well, maybe not that Belgian Hitler fan. He’s got some ideas about statutory rape of teen boys that are as likely to offend MRAs as they are to offend feminists.)
And you wonder why so many see the Men’s Rights movement as a hate movement. (Hint: It’s the hate.)
NOTE: My promised post reflecting a bit more on A Voice for Men’s role in this all should go up tomorrow.
I’ve seen Pat Robertson talking in a similar hatemirational sort of way about Islam. Islam seems to be something elements of the right project misogyny onto – while many Muslim-majority areas are quite sexist, it’s by no means an exclusively Muslim phenomenon. Anyway, doing this allows them to dismiss misogyny as something other people do – “what do you mean I’m sexist? Women should be allowed to drive! I’m not forcing my wife to wear a veil/stoning women for adultery/whatever factually-based or not Muslim-or-just-Arab habit! In fact, you support immigration, bringing in Muslims – you’re the sexist!”
But when these people realise they are misogynistic on some level and want to defend it, this supposed immunity of Islam to criticism from the left becomes appealing – “call me mean names again, and I’ll convert to Islam! How would like that, huh?” It’s all very odd.
Seriously, let’s put this in context. I’ve lived in Saudi Arabia. As Muslim countries go it doesn’t get much more hardcore than that. And yeah, there was a lot of stuff that really sucked (and women aren’t the only group whose civil rights are being gleefully ignored there either). But compared to the idea of living in a country run by MRAs? I’d be booking myself onto the next flight back to Jeddah.
(If anyone wants to know why, it’s because if the choice is between a situation in which the people in charge have repressive, outdated ideas about women’s role in society, and a situation in which the people in charge have repressive, outdated ideas about women’s role in society AND a massive grudge against women as a group AND a tendency to descend into frothing hatred any time they’re confronted with a woman saying or doing anything at all, I feel safer with the people who’re incredibly sexist but not motivated by hatred based on some sort of weird grudge.)
Reblogged this on woosterlang87.
Can anyone else articulate this weird quality in this disproportionate outrage at some dude being told to ‘stfu’. It’s a crowd of protesters who vehemently disagree with your message- stfu is hardly the most heated thing to have been said at a protest. Have any of these ‘activists’ ever even been to a protest? Regardless, am I wrong in thinking all this rage seems to come from the fact a woman told a Man to stfu, rather defer to that old man speak woman listen dynamic? And they don’t want to say it in so many words, but that’s where all the hatred is coming from?
I think part of what’s being defended here, particularly by some of the people who’ve shown up to argue in the last couple of threads, is the right of men to have a disproportionate reaction to things that upset them. I think what’s setting them off (in terms of what David wrote, not what Red said) is that they don’t appreciate being told that their response should be proportionate.
It’s an odd hill to choose to die on, but there you go.
It was the same after the first UoT demonstration, wasn’t it? AVfM’s horror that a woman could shout at and insult a man! In public! She must be made an example of so that this is never allowed to happen again!
Such sheltered little lives they must lead.
Oh look more MRA activism:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/04/17/ns-bullying-rehtaeh-boys-support-posters.html
Oh. No more cooking tips (as I admittedly can’t)? Then I think I link some cute. 🙂
http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/164445_505349216175745_363483224_n.jpg
… And I got ninja-d by awful. I really should refresh the site more often.
Yawn minty. Men have been threatening women with violence since forever. So what really has changed recently? Oh, what’s that?
Nothing.
A small group of violent men using any excuse to terrorize women has been going on for ages. Just remember that there have always been women to oppose that shitty behaviour, just as there have always been men who oppose that shitty behaviour.
No, it’s not. Not to them.
The right to harass women is ALL IT’S ABOUT to them.
They are the abusers’ lobby.
“A traveller can go for miles just knowing there’s dwarf battle bread”
Erm, has anyone ever seen a dwarf eat the bread? Its like the swiss army knife of baked products. It can be weilded as a weapon, used as a hammer, and is far superior to a whip in getting people to travel leagues without pause or meal breaks.
Mark, you should take your fantasies somewhere else. I’m sure there’s a fiction site you could post to.
@hellkell, that’s a terrible thing to say!
Fiction sites should make more sense than his fantasies.
Even really bad fanfiction already does.
I’m sorry, Howard, was that MISANDRY?
Well, the fanfiction sites we’d be turning him loose on would have more women than men, probably.
But since women can’t really be victims, the real victims would be the men who would have to put up with him.
So, yes, it was totally MISANDRY.
And, woah, MRAL sneaks on board again by posting an innocent sounding comment to get me to approve him as a commenter. And posts from two IPs, one of them in Boston and the other in Dallas.
Dude, if you want to convince us that you’re not sneaking on here using fake ips, you should probably not use fake IPs to get on here to complain about it.
Two things that occur to me after reading through all this (because, logic!):
1) Were the men not trying to shut up the women at the protest, talking over them, swearing at them, also? Even if you ignore all societal context, it makes no sense to say that a woman is oppressing men by telling them to STFU, while you’re supporting men who were doing the exact same thing to the women. Anyone here who’s only condemning women for it is showing their bias rather blatantly.
(And before any of those people claim this blog is also biased in its reporting–it’s reporting on the doxxing and death threats. Which a woman has received. And none of the men involved have received. So that is a case where the men clearly are trying to silence a woman in a way that is not remotely close to what they’re experiencing themselves. Saying so it’s a bias; it is a fact.)
2) To anyone who’s been complaining about the “inaccuracy” of Manboobz’s reporting, of what the activist’s “crimes” were, while still claiming they don’t support the MRAs: Have you also been going to the MRA blogs and challenging the inaccuracies in the way *they’re* reporting on this situation? Like, say, the inaccuracy of them saying no MRAs are involved in the harassment and threats? No? Then you might want to ask yourself why it’s more important to you to make sure the “crimes” of a woman who’s receiving incredibly vicious harassment and threats are not theoretically downplayed, than to make sure the crimes of the people encouraging her harassment aren’t downplayed. If what you really wanted was for everyone to be reporting accurately, you’d be targeting everyone. If you only target one side, you’re clearly showing you favor one over the other, no matter how many times you claim you don’t. Actions speak louder than words and all that.
Also! If what you post sounds so ridiculous that some people assume that it must be someone making fun of your, um, unique writing style? Dude, you’re being fucking ridiculous.
Ice cream doesn’t get, “freezer burn”, it recrystalises. Frost Free refrigerators are very good at causing this.
Freezer burn, for those who don’t know, is a mix of burst cells, and evaporation,and sublimation. Freezing tissue causes some cells to burst, then the low humdity/slight variations in temperature, cause the exposed fluids (because of solutes in the cells not all the water is completey frozen) to evaporate. Some of the frozen fluids will just convert straight to vapor.
Airtight packaging reduces this.
Clint: 1) YET AGAIN I have no affiliation with MRAs
You talk the talk. Why should we assume you ain’t walkin’?
Here’s the thing, all we know about you is what you present. What you are presenting is MRA talking points, and apologia for rape/death/torture threats (that and some thin skin).
That makes you, functionally, an MRA, even if you don’t ID with the MRM. Same way I can be a feminist and never have been a member of NOW, or NARAL, nor bought a thing from Gloria Steinem.
2) you managed to spectacularly miss the point. Most bank robbers are also men. That doesn’t mean that most men are bank robbers. My whole point was to point out how bigoted and hateful it is to paint men as rapists, and you paint men as rapists.
Two things are not equal. 1: Women aren’t banks. Rape is a crime against persons, not property. 2: Rape is much more prevalent than bank robbery. In it’s entire existence my bank has not been robbed. That’s more than 30 years, no robbery. I can’t say that about the women I’ve known. Assuming that all the women I know who have been raped is all the women I know who have been raped (not a good assumption), that’s in the dozens.
Here’s where the comparison you are making fails. In the 30 some years my bank has been in business, hundreds of thousands of interactions have not led to one robbery.
The in the time those women have been alive, far fewer interactions have led to a fuckton of rapes.
Pop-quiz: What should women do to prevent rape?
If you say “be wary of being in situations where they might be raped,” you are saying some men might be rapists (and if you don’t say some men might be rapists, you’re even stupider than it presently appears; and that appearance has been climbing).
Which is where the bank robber metaphor comes back to bite you in the ass, again.
Since a woman can’t know who is going to rape her (any more than a bank can know who is going to rob it), she has to assume any man might; just as the guard at a bank assumes any person who walks in the door might be a robber.
MARL really, truly has no life or outside interests. Damn, man, do something, anything else.
Revealing comments from Mark!
And:
Well, actually, they will be. If you say things that some other people don’t like, people are going to tell you to shut up. A Voice for Men is constantly telling feminists to shut up, and threatening them when they don’t. Heck, your whole comment here is a long-winded “shut the fuck up” directed at me and the commenters here.
The difference is that I’m not going to send you 500 threatening messages or post your personal information on the internet just because you, in effect, told me to shut up.
I let you say your piece, despite the fact that it was a bit threatening in tone, and then I said my piece right back. The way discussion generally works.
Wow. Mr. Al is just incapable of accepting other people’s boundaries; in fact, he appears to be furious that other people get to set their own boundaries, or think things he disagrees with.
And Mark thinks he’s scary. Dude, we’re made of sterner stuff than the MRM. We’re not going to wilt away because you’re blustering on the internet.
Clint isn’t worth the bother.
That leaves Dan, who’s just kind of sad. I mean it’s totally on him that he’s chosen to get involved in a hate movement, and I’m not excusing that, but… He says he has a particular diagnosis but there’s no evidence he’s getting any help. Instead he’s gotten involved with the very people who will tell him there’s no help out there for him.
To everyone else, good morning (or whatever time it is where you are)!