And so the MRAs have found yet another woman to hate.
Earlier this month, as many of you no doubt know, a Men’s Rights group sponsored a lecture at the University of Toronto. The event drew protesters, and the protesters drew MRAs with video cameras. One of the MRAs filmed a confrontation between a red-haired feminist activist and a number of MRAs who continually interrupted her as she tried to read a brief statement.
Her crime? She wasn’t exactly polite in responding to the interrupters. And so, after video of the confrontation was uploaded to YouTube, and linked to on the Men’s Rights subreddit and elsewhere, she became a virtual punching bag for the angry misogynists of the internet.
A Voice for Men, naturally, led the charge, running an article by Canadian MRA Dan Perrins labeling her “Little red frothing fornication mouth” and commenting on her breasts. The Amazing Atheist weighed in with a video I couldn’t bring myself to even watch.
Since being targeted by angry YouTube misogynists and MRAs, the red-haired activist has received death threats, rape threats and literally hundreds of other hateful and harassing messages. She’s also been “doxxed” — that is, she’s had her personal information plastered all over the internet, including on A Voice for Men’s forum. Ten days after being uploaded to YouTube, the video of her faceoff against the MRAs has garnered more than 300,000 views, and YouTubers are still leaving threats and insults and crude sexual comments.
This, apparently, is what “Men’s Human Rights Activism” consists of: the doxxing and harassment of individual women.
Several days ago, she contacted me to tell me about the harassment she’s endured. Here’s some of what she wrote:
I’m the red-head. I’m sure by now, you’re one of the 260,000 people who have seen the video of me … .
Because I had the audacity to tell a dude to stfu, an MRA no less, I have since been the target of not only just online misogyny (as if that’s a surprise) but cyber stalking, rape and death threats. They somehow found my facebook, they found my tumblr, they found a twitter acct that I don’t even use, they even found an old [dating site] profile of mine with outdated info …
I also got an anonymous message on tumblr that specifically said “[name deleted] would be disappointed”. [Name deleted] is my dog that died 1.5 years ago, I don’t talk about him on tumblr, nor fb, so they would have had to reaaaaalllly dig to find this info. …
In about 12-24hours, I got about400-500 new messages on my blog, most of them hate, which included rape and death threats, also people wishing death upon me or the typical troll “kill yourself” message. They made a meme of me.
I dunno how many haters I have, and I don’t know where they are. I can’t be sure at any given second, if I’m ever outside my house … if anyone is going to recognize me and try to hurt me.
With her permission, I am reposting screenshots she sent me documenting some of the harassment she’s endured. Even though her personal information has already been widely disseminated online, I don’t want to contribute to that, so I’ve whited out any information that might reveal her identity.
TRIGGER WARNING for what follows, for threatening language and crude sexual remarks.
Here’s a death threat she received from someone claiming to represent the “Islamic Brotherhood.”
Here are some sample comments from her Tumblr inbox. I’ve whited out comments and parts of comments that consist of her contact info, which being sent to her in an attempt to intimidate and frighten her by letting her know they “know where she lives.”
Here’s another threatening comment sent to her via Tumblr:
Here are some comments sent to her via her YouTube account. You’ll notice that the second comment comes from AVFM’s Dan Perrins, who is clearly relishing the attacks on her.
And another glimpse into her YouTube inbox:
Here’s a screenshot from a Men’s Rights forum revealing her personal information.
Meanwhile, over on YouTube, the hateful comments continue to pile up. Here are some of the nastiest ones I’ve collected. I am deliberately posting a lot of them in an attempt to convey something of the relentless nature of the attacks on teh red-haired activist — though I should note I’ve only gone through a small portion of the total comments there and this doesn’t even reflect all of the awful ones I found. These are not in any particular order. I threw in a few non-threatening ones that struck me as a tad ironic or otherwise revealing.
Again, this is only a small fraction of the abuse she’s gotten on YouTube.
This is what happens when MRAs and other misogynists target a woman online. The only thing that’s surprising here is the sheer amount of the hateful comments.
I’ve seen no serious attempts from any MRAs to rein in this sort of hatred. A Voice for Men has tried to distance itself in a superficial way from some of the harassment it has played a central role in unleashing, with an official announcement asking readers to refrain from posting the personal information of the red-haired activist in the comments. Meanwhile, in the AVFM forum, comments linking to her defunct dating profiles remain up.
This is what MRA “activism” looks like.
Coming tomorrow: A more detailed look at AVFM’s role in the harassment.
esmnmb: You seem awfully concerned with the idea that legitimate Mens’ Rights Activists outnumber the people in the MRM. That seems to be a strong desire to “reclaim” the MRM brand.
Why? What is it about the status of men which makes it the ideological focus point of your movement?
A group of men trying to show how the socialization of men harms them? Shed light on male victims? Break oppressive gender roles?
You could call them “feminists.”
I think that having groups of men (and women) dedicated to breaking down stereotypes about masculinity sounds like a very nice idea. I’m even cool with it separating itself slightly from feminism, due to the slightly different focus. Where it all seems to fall apart is when you get entitled men whining about “the good old days” and blaming women for everything, instead of being forward-looking, acknowledging the patriarchy’s existence, and trying to make the planet better for everyone.
It’s kind of hilarious how esm has gone from
to
Um, which is it? Are MRAs a legitimate movement being tarred unfairly, or are they a hate movement than any actual activist avoids like the plague?
Also, man it sure would be great if, in the interests of fairness, David linked to a website devoted to examining men’s issues from a non-hateful perspective.
Oh wait, he did. In the sidebar.
So, what’s happening to her is bad, but if she really had the courage of her convictions she wouldn’t be complaining about it? Dude, what is wrong with you?
or confident enough of her convictions that she would be happy to have her words and behaviour associated with her real identity.
Uh, I don’t want people online knowing my “real” identity at all, no matter what’s linked to it.
Nopestories has this weird cycle where they say something ableist, get extremely upset when they’re told it’s ableist, piss and moan here and on their own blog about being called ableist, then come back here and say thing they know we’re going to call ableist and do the whole thing over again. It’s so bizzarre.
Nopestories is just… *makes the jerking it motion*
@emilygoddess: It’s a whole Dunning-Krugger right-wing echo-chamber thing. You know how they think ‘politically correct’ is a biting rebuke? That it cuts you right down?
Or that socialist is an insult?
Or liberal?
He really thinks every time he goes ‘haha, you guys are so PC’ that he’s just pulled a trump card that somehow shows that we’re petty assholes and he’s the hero.
And doesn’t really notice that it’s really just him being a petty asshole.
howardbann1ster, I know feminist like to claim they are working on issues that face men, but they also like to tell people who ask for them to be more local about it, that it isn’t their responsibility. So which is it? Is feminism working to end society’s misconception of what is normal male behavior, is it working to end inequality that men face, is it working to raise awareness of male victims, is it working towards ending the misconception that only men perpetrate domestic violence and sex crimes, is it working on giving men a reasonable option on reproductive rights, parental rights, male circumcision, stoping from men being systematically blocked from working in female dominated industries? Or is it not their problem to worry about such things?
The answer I’ve gotten from most feminists,”We’re working on it, but it isn’t our job to make people aware of it. You can’t expect us to speak for YOU.”
The reason we don’t use the word feminism to describe our movement, is because it’s focus is from the female perspective. It’s hard for most men to associate with a groupfrom a female perspective.
“I think that having groups of men (and women) dedicated to breaking down stereotypes about masculinity sounds like a very nice idea. I’m even cool with it separating itself slightly from feminism, due to the slightly different focus. Where it all seems to fall apart is when you get entitled men whining about “the good old days” and blaming women for everything, instead of being forward-looking, acknowledging the patriarchy’s existence, and trying to make the planet better for everyone”
Yeah, we avoid the perspective of the good ol’ days.We want to move away from patriarchy, avoid establishing matriarchy, and move forward to a gender neutral society. We feel that assigning any gender as the dominient gender is destructive to society.
“Um, which is it? Are MRAs a legitimate movement being tarred unfairly, or are they a hate movement than any actual activist avoids like the plague?”
It’s called forming an opinion based on understanding and facts. Yallaine made a good point that no label is better than the MRA label. Are people not allowed to consider differing viewpoints and adjust their opinion?
“Also, man it sure would be great if, in the interests of fairness, David linked to a website devoted to examining men’s issues from a non-hateful perspective.
Oh wait, he did. In the sidebar.”
Where I don’t feel like clicking on several links to find it.
But even then, it’s not terribly heroic the way they’re doing it. They got yelled at once for using the “r” word, so coming back and getting yelled at for using the “r” word again doesn’t prove anything about us or show any cleverness or bravery on their part.
Maybe I should stop trying to make sense of idiocy.
@emilygoddess: Ergo the Dunning-Krugger reference. He’s epically bad at this, but he thinks he’s just God’s Gift to the Internet. He thinks everything from his lips is a witticism wasted on mortals. He has no idea that he’s both incoherent and an asshole.
@esmnmb
Yes.
I’m sorry, false dichotomy is false.
Um, a list. How nice.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, HEY WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS MEN ALREADY HAVE ALL THE REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.
Expand that, please. What the fuck do you mean by this?
Parental rights? Men have all the parental rights.
Circumcision? Yes, they’re working on it. They’re the only ones I see doing work on it.
Stopping me from being blocked from female dominated industries?
Hmmm…. name a few, plz?
And, yes, yes, they are.
Is it not their problem to worry about such things?
It isn’t. They do it anyway, because it’s right.
They are working on it. Currently much more than any men’s group.
And expecting them to speak for you is also bullshit.
I don’t see any problems here, except that a lot of things you called problems look like a pile of MRA bullshit.
Do you really think there’s any danger of that happening? dream on.
In the interest of fairness, let’s have about 10,000 years of matriarchy now and then we can switch to gender neutral after. ;p
I think it’s kind of funny you are all criticizing MRA’s for comments and threats trolls made who probably had nothing to do with real MRA’s and what MRA’s stand for. Yesterday they were threatening a vile feminist, tomorrow they will threaten someone else. Labeling MRA’s as misogynistic criminals who threaten people because of troll threats is probably one of the weakest arguments for hating MRA’s I’ve heard so far. But okay, everyone is in their own level of maturity and understanding of other human beings.
I do however think it’s destructive that some of you are trying to stop a social movement of men standing up for their rights while most of you claim to be for equality. You do realize most men supporting MRA’s on the internet right now are young males right? Not old-fashioned “good old days” grandpa’s. I am a young man as well. And I do NOT think all problems men face today are caused only by your so-called “patriarchy”. I think a lot of the problems men face today are caused by people like you. People who have a problem with taking criticism about women, because they see women as victims of society(and men). People who try to sabotage the progress of men’s rights but care a great deal about women’s rights. In other words, I have a problem with sexists.
I wait for the day when feminists and MRA’s start calling themselves humanists. Feminism was bound to be destructive from the day it started calling itself FEMinism instead of HUMANism. Equality!
Yes.
If by “problem” you mean “job” or “sole responsibility,” then no. They’re not being paid for it. However, feminist or pro-feminist group (like NOMAS) are doing a hell of a lot more about these issues than any MRAs or masculinist group.
MRAs somehow think that it should be feminists’ fulltime job to address these issues and whine about it, instead of joining pro-feminist groups themselves and doing something about it.
I personally find it extremely easy. It begins though by acknowledging that patriarchy is built first and foremost to oppress women, and that women are more harmed by it than men.
If you think this is even remotely a possibility in modern society you are overwhelmingly out to lunch.
It’s called What About the Menz.
Also, you know that the reason that some men regard women’s issues as totally alien to their own self-interest is patriarchy and sexism right? If women were seen as equal humans it wouldn’t be a big deal to view things from women’s perspectives.
Feminists are already challenging gender stereotypes and gender policing that make men thinks it’s shameful to cry or show vulnerability. There are some male feminists like Michael Kimmel and Michael Flood who explain how hegemonic masculinity tries to push men to act macho and punishes men who don’t meet the macho ideal. This goes along with how society treats male victims of rape and domestic violence by denying they can be victims or making them feel like lesser men for being victims.
The pink collar professions do accept men, but men usually don’t want to enter them. These jobs, like running a daycare, being a caregiver at nursing homes, or teaching kindergarten, are difficult jobs with very low pay. Jobs associated with men have higher prestige and pay, even the blue collar jobs like mechanic, electrician, or plumber. If men do choose to take jobs traditionally associated with women, they probably would not face ridicule from women, but from other men. This ties in with the hegemonic masculinity, too.
While I do think it’s great for feminism to help men, I also don’t think it should have to recenter men’s issues to come after women’s. Part of the problem is that women are already expected to sacrifice their own needs for everyone else. So while it’s great for feminists to help with men’s issues, it should not be expected that they will make that their top priority over women’s needs. That’d be like saying women can only deal with their problems after fixing all of men’s problems, because men’s needs come first, even in feminism.
Esm…: you’re saying the same old crap. What is revealing is you saying “we want to avoid a matriarchy” as if it is a real thing. News flash it is not. There was a post awhile back about a prank call made by an mra claiming he was a male dv victim. I suggest you read that post and the comments and you tell me wtf the mrm is doing to actually help male dv victims. As for the other problems you named, feminism is doing WAY more about them than the mrm is. I have not seen a single fragment of positive effort towards any of the problems you named from the mrm. Also men are not systematically blocked from traditionally “female jobs”. Sorry bud, doesn’t exist.
The mrm is a reactionary backlash by some childish men in response to having to “share the pie” with other people (ie. woman, other people of other races, other religions, people with disabilities etc), instead of being able to eat it all themselves and leave crumbs for everyone else. If you want to change things for the better for men, call out misogyny, ableism, racism, homophobia spouted by some of the more prominent mra’s. Challenge them. Ask them what they are doing to help people in need. And no, “fucking feminists’ shit up” is not helping. You want to create a good movement for men, grow a spine and call out shit when you see it. Make forums and comments stay on topic and concentrate on real efforts with positive effects. Don’t trot your ass into a feminist space and wonder why we have such a low opinion of the mrm. It’s pretty clear.
You can be both a feminist and work on men’s issues. As has been said a million times here, helping one group of people is not a “zero sum game”, automatically making things worse for everyone else. I don’t think the mrm gets that’s, at all.
PS: men who do go into pink collar professions….
Tend to be lionized and paid more than women.
Which makes that item on the list even more problematic.
Creating a ‘pink collar’ ghetto and underpaying it really isn’t so much a problem for men.
And I’m still giving a massive side-eye to the ‘reproductive rights’ and ‘parental rights.’
Sorry, I meant to say feminism should not have to center men’s issues ahead of women’s. Got that switched around. But anyway, I think male feminists like the ones at NOMAS are already addressing these issues pretty well, but if you’re starting new groups about it, that’s great.
Yeah, you’re right. If a man teaches at Head Start, then he’s a hero for helping children. Some other men might laugh at him for doing degrading “women’s work”, but that is not feminists’ fault, but patriarchy’s fault.
If a woman enters a profession that’s traditionally masculine, though, she will get tons of shit. Then people say “She’s too weak to be a firefighter. They must have lowered the standards for her.” or “She’s an affirmative action hire that puts the real firefighters at risk” before she even has the chance to prove her abilities.
The two situations aren’t in the same ballpark, not even close.
ensmrb: I’m really trying to give you all the benefit of the doubt–linking to NOMAS got you considerable leeway.
That said, the line about “avoiding establishing a matriarchy” shows that you and your group still have some issues to work through. Considering this to be even a remotely possible danger of dismantling the patriarchy is absurd, at best.
I’d strongly encourage you to reconsider the suggestion, “Men Against the Patriarchy”, as it makes it very clear that, while your group is not a primarily feminist one (no reason it should be, you’re wanting to advocate on real issues), your group is a viable ALLY to feminists–part of a broader humanist movement. It also cuts hard against any attempt to co-opt your organization by the MRAs who, as everyone has noted, have poisoned many of the terms you might’ve otherwise used.
In addition, it’s pithy. MAP, as an acronym, has all sorts of potential in the hands of a good marketer/propagandist (these terms have unsavory connotations, but there’s not a single political movement out there, for good or ill, that doesn’t need to be aware of the techniques involved in making your case to the public) to make your pitch. “MAP: Showing the way to a better future”, for instance.
If you really, really want to avoid the term Patriarchy because you’re afraid it’ll scare off potential recruits before you can show them the reasoning, then as a back-up, “MOK: Men Opposing the Kyiarchy” could work. This establishes it as a broader purpose, recognizes that Patriarchy is at least part of the problem (In set terms, P is a subset of K), and generally makes your overall positions clear.
Guh: Stupid lack of edit function. “You’re wanting to advocate on real issues” should not, obviously, be taken to mean “Feminism isn’t about real issues”. Rather, should have read, “You’re wanting to focus on other issues that are just as serious to your membership, and that’s cool”,