Longtime antifeminist crusader Erin Pizzey recently did an “Ask Me Anything” session on Reddit. Here are some highlights — by which I mean lowlights — from her answers.
Ms. Pizzey wants to ban feminism as a hate movement:
Personally, I would like to see the feminist movement described as a hate movement, so that we can then ban them from the government, from university faculties, from anywhere where they can destroy the minds of young women and men.
It’s just a teensy bit ironic, I would say, that she characterizes feminism as a hate movement at the very same time that A Voice for Men, a site she has very publicly aligned herself with, is leading a hate campaign against an individual feminist activist. (More on this to come tomorrow.) Indeed, Pizzey herself adds to the vilification of the activist here.
And speaking of A Voice for Men, she apparently agrees with AVFM’s Paul Elam that feminists are only interested in the issue of rape because they have rape fantasies and are angry that they’re not getting enough attention from men:
If you’re referring to Paul’s statement that many or most women fantasize about being taken, I’m sorry but that’s the truth. That doesn’t mean they want to be raped, but it’s a fantasy I think almost all women have. And I think he went on to say that feminists like Andrea Dworkin who were and are so obsessed with rape are really projecting their own unconscious sexual frustration because men don’t give them enough attention. Andrea was a very sad lonely woman like this–I didn’t know her but I knew of her, and I knew Susan Browmiller and you can just read her stuff to see it there.
Yeah, I’m thinking that Dworkin’s “obsession” with rape might have had less to do with her wanting “attention” from men than it did with the fact that she had been raped.
In response to a question about using Title IX to increase the number of women in science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM), Pizzey argues that most women’s brains aren’t equipped to handle all that sciencey stuff, and that most women would rather be raising children:
what will happen is that a few women will come out of that world in those areas that suit men’s brains better than women’s, and do well, but most of them won’t, and they’ll just leave and go on to other professions or to have children or family. That’s what’s been happening all the time when they’ve had quotas.
But what about the men who get excluded because of that? That’s the tragedy isn’t it, and the waste of money. Harriet Harman has proposed quotas for women in parliament, quotas for women in all the high-status fields, and women have flocked in but do not want the gruelling hours that men are willing to put into their professions because most of them–MOST of them–want to be spending time with their children at home, and that God for that.
Pizzey believes that most feminists are “mental patents” who deserve only condescension:
Personally, I don’t get into arguments with mental patients, which is what most feminist women are. Look at them with pity and compassion if you can, speak the truth as you know it.
But if you want a real reaction, pat her on the head and tell her not to worry her pretty little head about it. That’s what I do! I think men have to start using their sense of humor as a weapon. You must get past any sense of anger when you do such things though!
She believes most prominent second-wave feminists were feminists mainly because they hated their dads:
One of the early mantras of the feminist movement was to make the personal political. Therefore, those women who had bitter and violent experiences of the first male their lives (e.g. their father) then branded all men as violent and dangerous. They are also what I call the walking wounded. As far as I’m concerned the prominent feminists of the day virtually all had appalling relationships with their fathers. So if feminism grew out of a justified sense of grievance, and created a platform where they did not attempt to heal their own damage, but to project onto all men… so yes it’s very cultlike that way. But it’s any cult group that works that way, they all have either a figure they adore or a hate object that keeps them together. And their hate is against men, even when they deny it.
Yes, that’s right, she says all this and somehow does not notice the hatred of women amongst the MRAs she’s aligned herself with.
While she dismisses feminists with “daddy issues” she urges those who have been abused by their parents to forget the abuse they’ve endured, forgive their abusers and “move on.”
[T]each yourself that the past is truly the past, it is done and you cannot change it, all it is is a loop in your brain that needs to be closed down so that you can move forward. Because those patterns are deep within you, it takes a lot of hard work, but in the end you FORGIVE YOURSELF and you FORGIVE YOUR PARENTS and move on.
Meanwhile, she thinks that it makes sense for men who don’t like feminism to “head for the hills” and Go Their Own Way.
It was many years ago I was talking to a very eligible bachelor, who was a lawyer, and asked him about American feminists. He laughed and he said “what they never banked on was that men would get together and take to the hills.” This is where that expression comes from. He and his male friends would get together and have a wonderful time, they did not make permanent relationships with women, because they realized they would have too much to lose: their homes, their children, and their money. I always remember this. When 40 year old feminists complain that they can’t find any men to commit themselves, why is it men’s fault? I can’t blame men who feel this way in today’s legal environment. If the so-called women’s movement, the feminists, want men, they have to care equally about men’s desires and men’s need for protection.
This sort of makes sense, given that Pizzey seems to live in an imaginary world in which women, not men, are the truly privileged.
The actual irony of this situation is there is nothing more privileged than white middle class women, who are most of feminists. Very very privileged, because they know when they are born that either the state or a man will take care of them if they do not choose their own career. Men on the other hand are born underprivileged, particularly now, even as small boys they are demonized and discriminated against. …
I cannot see how sane sensible educated intelligent woman can consider that men are privileged. It has always been rich and middle class women who have been protected, and they are the truly privileged.
Indeed, she’s managed to convince herself that “never in the history of the world have men been so unprivileged, if you think about it.”
Naturally, all of her comments were happily upvoted by the Reddit masses, and her “Ask Me Anything” post itself got more than 1200 upvotes. Evidently pandering to Reddit’s collective fantasies about the oppression of men pays off big in the upvote department.
Good job, cloudiah, now you made me scroll all the way back to try to find this commenter.
But he did not have much to say. 😐 I tried reading it, and it was sooooo boring.
Comment for anyone interested.
Yeah, that’s why I thought maybe ignoring him was intentional. 0_o
Anyone ever successfully talk an anti-vaxxer out of their position? There’s a librarian I work with who hasn’t had her kid vaccinated. She seems WAY too sensible in general to take that position, so it was kind of a shock to find out.
Re: the condescending “don’t worry your pretty head” response: my comeback is always to simply point out what they’re doing. I’ve had great results with saying, “So in other words, you know I’m right/can’t argue the points I just made, so you’re dismissing me as a person instead?” I’ve found that pointing out exactly what it is they’re doing in cases like that is very effective.
Re: anti-vaxxers, I got whooping cough as an adult and I seriously thought I was going to die. I did break my ribs and I tore muscles from the coughing. The severe cough lasted for about 3 weeks and it was nearly 2 months before I could do anything even slightly physical without coughing. I cannot imagine how people are willing to risk putting their kids through it (I got all appropriate vaccinations as a kid, but honestly didn’t know I needed whooping cough boosters as an adult).
I also have an elderly friend who got a mild case of polio as a child, and now is dealing with the long-term effects that are slowly robbing her of her mobility when she should still be active and able. When and where she grew up, a polio vaccine wasn’t available, so it’s no one’s fault, but just watching her is heartbreaking to me because it’s so painful for her to lose her mobility like this. And again, hers was an extremely MILD case when she got it.
So if for nothing else (although there are plenty of other reasons), I’m all about vaccines. They should be the easiest healthcare decision to make for healthy people, because without underlying issues they’re one of the safest preventatives available. The risk vs. reward is just overwhelmingly in favor of getting the damn vaccination.
I know a lot of anti-vaxxers though and I think for most of them, it’s not that they’d rather have a dead child than an autistic one. It’s that they honestly, truly do not believe vaccines are necessary (often it stems from an ignorance of the function of herd immunity–“But I’ve never known anyone with measles, how could my kid get it?”). So for them, the choice is more like a living NT kid or a living autistic kid. There’s still a strong streak of ableism running through the movement, but I think for a lot of individuals, it’s that they just don’t think vaccines are necessary at all for their child’s safety and health. I’ve honestly had more than one argue with me that riding in the car is more dangerous for the kid than being unvaccinated…which may or may not be true, I don’t really care since it is a false equivalency, but if you really think that and you also think that there are big risks that come with vaccinations, then I can see why a parent would choose to skip vaccinations.
I don’t know what the answer to that is. Even Wakefield himself saying his studies were BS and Jenna McCarthy’s son turning out to not even actually be autistic hasn’t seemed to dent the movement. I think as much education as possible is a great first step there…even instilling concepts like herd immunity into the population might help change some minds. And not that I’m a fan of shock campaigns, but perhaps some real education about what life was like before vaccines would help.
pillowinhell, I know the basic way vaccines works, but what i don’t know is more things like:
– if you have (non life-threatening) illness instead of the corresponding vaccine, if there a difference in the resulting modification to your immune system?
– if we all were to take every vaccine available (including flu vaccine for healthy adults in environment that don’t really require it), wouldn’t it have bad effect, like diminishing the capacity of our immune system to create by himself defenses to other illness, or the creation of stronger, current-vaccine-resistant bacteria?
To be clear, I’m not anti-vaccines. I might be a bit anti-needles, though; Or needles are anti-me, I dunno. I tried several times to give blood, when it’s not my my iron level being too low then I’m fainting. But now I have meds so I can’t even try to give blood anyway.
This exactly how my mom is in regards to vaccines.
Because no one who has been anything less than convicted of a crime has ever been put on register her.
Nope, woudn’t dream of such a thing.
– if we all were to take every vaccine available (including flu vaccine for healthy adults in environment that don’t really require it), wouldn’t it have bad effect, like diminishing the capacity of our immune system to create by himself defenses to other illness, or the creation of stronger, current-vaccine-resistant bacteria?
No.
The vaccine stimulates your immune system by exposing it to more things it can then recognise.It makes you stronger. One of the best effectts of vaccination is herd immunity, which is why we immunize.
Carp… combined comments.
Yellaine:
– if we all were to take every vaccine available (including flu vaccine for healthy adults in environment that don’t really require it), wouldn’t it have bad effect, like diminishing the capacity of our immune system to create by himself defenses to other illness, or the creation of stronger, current-vaccine-resistant bacteria?
No.
The vaccine stimulates your immune system by exposing it to more things it can then recognise. One of the best effecttsof vaccination is herd immunity, which is why we immunize
Yellaine: – if you have (non life-threatening) illness instead of the corresponding vaccine, if there a difference in the resulting modification to your immune system?
What non-threatening illness? With the exception of (thank Goodness) Cowpox/Smallpox, the disease you get by not being vaccinated is the same disease. If you happen to be exposed after being vaccinated either you get a mild (non life-threatening) case, or you never notice; because your system beats it down (see me with what may have been whooping cough).
Cassandra: In terms of protective gear not accommodating beards/long hair, perhaps there’s something I’m missing here, but surely the problem is with the equipment rather than the hair and should be approached as such? It’s not like, say, helmets grow on the helmet tree and can’t have their design updated.
A pro-mask has to have an airtight seal to work.
Having a beard prevents this.
If one can make the beard into an airtight gasket, then the pro-mask will work.
The pro-mask must also be portable, and something the user can maintain in a lethal environment.
Long hair doesn’t cause a problem, because the head can be covered with a hood (and is, the back of the scalp isn’t covered by the mask; the seal is made at the forehead,cheekbones to jawline) to prevent even more overheating than the gear causes; since one is in quilted pajamas, and being very active.
But breathing will pull air in through the path of least resistance. having had a mask with a lack of seal in a CS Gas chamber it’s amazing how small a leak will cause total failure of protection.
Re vaccines, in Sweden we had mass vaccination against the swine flu. Turned out a couple of hundred people got narcolepsy because of the vaccine (or, most probably because of the vaccine – obviously there’s no one hundred percent certainty in this). Nowadays, there’s a number of medical experts (I mean real medical experts, not some tin foil hats, although there are also medical experts who disagree with them) who judge that all things considered, the mass vaccination probably wasn’t worth it. When the government made this huge order for swine flue vaccine it was the right decision, taken into account what we knew about the disease at the time. Once the vaccine had actually been manufactured and delivered and we also knew much more about the disease, it would probably have been more rational to only vaccinate the risk groups, like we do with the normal flue. But it would have been very difficult for the responsible politicians to decide not to use these vast amounts of vaccine once they’d already been paid for and delivered, and mass vaccination went ahead.
So the best estimate from lots of medical experts now is that we’d probably have had some more deaths without mass vaccination, but not at all deaths enough to make up for all the narcolepsy cases we ended up having because of mass vaccination. (And yeah, obviously it’s difficult to measure some deaths against a higher number of narcolepsy cases and determine what’s “worse”, which is one reason that medical experts disagree on whether it was worth it.)
The problem is that you see anti-vaxers taking this as some kind of evidence that they’ve been right all along. Obviously NOTHING follows regarding old and well-tested vaccines from this, but some people seem to think “vaccine as vaccine”.
Yellaine
1. Mostly no – getting a vaccine primes the immune system in the same way getting sick would.*
*Some exceptions – some vaccines require booster shots. But off the top of my head, those are the ones you never want to actually get sick from in the first place. I think tetanus is among the boosters.
2. Definitely no. Vaccines are dead/weakened pathogens (or occasionally bits and pieces of pathogens). They won’t make the immune system weaker
Realised now that my post was a bit unclear – there’s NO disagreement, as far as I know, in the medical community regarding whether people got narcolepsy from the vaccine. Although you can never be a hundred percent certain about such things EVERYONE agrees that this is very much probably the case. What people disagree on is
a) is a handful more dead people and a few hundred more getting ill enough to require hospital treatment more or less bad than a hundred or so narcolepsy cases?
and
b) was mass vaccination the rational decision to make with the kind of information we had at the time?
NightShadeQueen: *Some exceptions – some vaccines require booster shots. But off the top of my head, those are the ones you never want to actually get sick from in the first place. I think tetanus is among the boosters.
Those also tend to be diseases one can, much later, catch again. One of the reasons people tended to get things like yellow fever once, is that, if it didn’t kill them the first time, they were reexposed on a regular basis, and so their immune system continued to have enough antigens to react before they got sick again.
RE: Yellaine
– if you have (non life-threatening) illness instead of the corresponding vaccine, if there a difference in the resulting modification to your immune system?
I don’t know, but I’ll bet someone else here does! I was pre-chicken pox vaccine, so got chicken pox. I think I’ve been advised to get the vaccine as well, because you can lose that immunity as you get older, so if anything, you get the braces and belt approach.
– if we all were to take every vaccine available (including flu vaccine for healthy adults in environment that don’t really require it), wouldn’t it have bad effect, like diminishing the capacity of our immune system to create by himself defenses to other illness, or the creation of stronger, current-vaccine-resistant bacteria?
No. Your immune system has different responses to different diseases. Also, we don’t have vaccines for everything. The cold, for instance. Dunno about you, but people around me get colds all the time in winter. Taking all the vaccines in the world won’t make your immune system less able to deal with a cold. It’s a different thing. Your immune system doesn’t get ‘lazy.’ Vaccines TEACH your immune system to deal with a specific illness. Your body still does the work.
Also, I LOATHE the anti-vaccine bullshit. Partly because I know a lot of autistic people, and because I almost worked as a careperson for a family with an autistic child who were anti-vax.
But it’s like a fucking zombie! It JUST WON’T DIE! It gets proved demonstrably false over and over and over, people write about how it’s false, and it just rises again from its ideological grave. I actually keep this comic here on hand just so I don’t have to keep talking about it.
@pillowinhell
Wow, that sounds horrible 🙁
This whole anti vaxx conversation has been creepy but necessary (for me). Repeating myself, I’d heard about it once or twice before, but figured it was much, much less common.
@pecunium
Thanks. Should use that one if someone tries it on me 🙂
@weeboy
Definitely a vaccine now, I babysitted my dad’s fiance’s kid a week when she had the chicken pox (the kid) and had a moment after I went ‘wait, I’m vaccinated, right?’ Had to ask my dad, and I was. So yeah.
@blitzgal
Fuck, a children’s book? There are all sorts of things wrong with that argument >.< Gahh…::incoherent anger::
My anger at anti-vax people is growing >:(
@lowquacks
I don’t know even though I live here :/ I know I got most of my vaccines, lots when I was too young to remember, but that may have just been a ‘my parents’ thing.
@Dvärghundspossen
Holy hell >:(
@cassandrasays
I would too (just butting in cuz I’m semi-religious ;)) Goes back to the conversation(s?) earlier about religion is all fine and dandy so long as it’s not hurting other people. Just seconding or w/e by this point.
@falyne42
Holy fuck, why? Gah. I mean, at least she came out and said it, instead of trying to hide her bs, but her poor kid.
@bigmomma
Fu… Ugh all I’m doing is being shocked by all this. Still learning a lot 🙁
Posting before this gets too long, hope nobody minds my quasi incoherent rambles.
@big momma
Me either (partly because I didn’t realize how deadly some of the disease where.)
@bahumbugi
I dread them sometimes, especially when I’m short on time/ feeling stressed, but don’t dislike doing them, just the fact that things take time 😉
::envy:: what country?
@tomBcat
(backdated?) Internet hugs if wanted 🙁 Sounds like a stressful way to grow up.
@AK
::mentally logs for future reference::
Wow 🙁
LBT you alright? You’re south of Boston right? Cliff Pervocracy tweeted about being south of it, just so y’all know.
On topic —
I got straight up told that nothing is impossible, you (I) just haven’t found the solution yet. And I cannot wrap my head around the privilege required to say that, when even the serenity prayer…
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
All together too cheesy, but some things you just can’t change…unless you have all sorts of privilege to get all the right strings pulled.
Pizzey’s theory up there belongs in Straw Feminism 101 alongside “women complain about street harassment because it never happens to them and they’re just jealous of the pretty young women who get compliments”. Where do the MRAs get the idea that feminists complain about Things That Never Actually Happened? We’re not the ones bleating on about boxcutters.
As for all the mentions of antivaxx/CAM (Complementary and Alternative Medicine) supporters here, I’ve said it before, but MRAs remind me most of CAM advocates. Take the following from Ben Goldacre’s Guardian article, What’s Wrong With Homoeopathy?:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/nov/16/sciencenews.g2
Sound familiar?
RE: Argenti
I’m okay, and all my friends here seem to be okay too. Trying to calm down; you missed my frantic flailing over on the Redhead thread.
I’m catching up there now. Internet hugs if they’re welcome.
Yellaine,
Vaccines will not develope vaccine resistant pathogens. Viruses mutate on a fairly frequent basis, usually the mutations are mild. The vaccine gives the human immune system a basic template, but our bodies will also adapt to the viruses we get exposed to.
Sometimes people get a mild early season flu. By mid season the flu will have mutated again, but people who caught it early on either don’t catch it again, or they catch a milder case if the mutation of the virus was more virulent.
RE: pillowinhell
I get the feeling Yellaine isn’t understanding the difference between a vaccine and an antibiotic.
RE: Argenti
Thanks. I’m pretty much calm now, but glah.
Also, I rejoined the multi scene today, joined a forum. I’m like a minor celebrity! o_o I keep getting surprised by that.