Blog posts by the New Misogynists I write about here often seem to be little more than combinations and recombinations of a relatively small number of very bad ideas. Today, let’s look at a blog post from a “conservative libertarian” and creepy Nice Guy ™ who identifies himself only as TIC, which combines a bit of “consent is hard” and “women only like bad boys” with some muddled notions from Evo Psych to conclude that women are such mysterious creatures that no one could possibly know what they really want — and so therefore it’s women who are the ones who are really responsible when they get raped.
It’s an argument that bears a strong similarity to the stories rapists tell themselves to excuse their actions. When people describe so-called Nice Guys ™ as creepy, this is why: in a lot of ways, they think like predators. In the case of TIC here, exactly like predators.
TIC starts off by ridiculing the notion that “no means no.”
Women are notorious for always warning men that “no means no”. For us men who have dealt with enough women, we know this to be pure malarkey. If “no” always meant “no”, many men would die virgins. There would also be fewer rapes as a result, because for once women would mean what they said instead of talking in indirect code language.
And now the victim blaming begins in earnest:
Women, many times, bring rape upon themselves. They purposely reject men, even ones they are interested in, in order to get him to chase her. Since women love to be the prize and the center of attention, leading a man on a wild goose chase through all sorts of hoops and mind games is all too common in today’s society.
Now, if this were actually true it would be, well, sort of annoying for straight men who don’t like jumping through hoops. TIC, though, seems to have convinced himself that the fact that some women play coy in the dating world somehow makes it literally impossible for men to tell when and if they’re raping a woman.
What this does is blur the line between what is acceptable for a man to do to a woman and what is not…because once we can all agree that women want to be chased, we can understand what a predicament it puts men into. Since “no” does not always mean “no”, there is no real way for a man to know when to stop his advances upon a woman.
TIC now pulls out some half-baked Evo Psych to bolster his alleged argument:
My theory as to why women give such pieces of advice goes back to dark triad genes or the lack thereof. You see, when a woman tells a man that he should just be himself, or to respect women, or to give them compliments, or that “no means no”, what she is actually doing is bullshitting the male. This is a weeding out mechanism that women use in order to ensure that men who don’t get it never will.
He follows this up with a fairly standard Nice Guy ™ whine.
You see, women do not want nice guys to propagate their genes. They do not wish for them to be successful with women. This is why advice coming from women is never good; it has been sabotaged from the get-go.
Well, actually, If women are telling Nice Guys ™ that “no means no” because they don’t want to have sex with these Nice Guys ™ aren’t these women, however mean you think they are, communicating what they want pretty clearly?
TIC moves on to another standard Nice Guy ™ complaint: that women actually get to turn down men for sex. Never mind that men also have the right to refuse sex with anyone they want. To the dedicated Nice Guy ™, the fact that women can say “no” means that they’re the ones running the show. And doing a terrible job of it, to boot.
Women have the power and control in the dating scene. This is important to note because it means that any and every problem with society in the context of female-male relations falls on the shoulders of women themselves.
And we’re back in Evo Psych-land again:
If women decide to start dating men who are genuine, nice, and honest, then that is what most men will become. Since women, however, are only attracted to males with dark triad genes, that is what most men strive to be. The ones that do not either are alone or being used.
Therefore, women are responsible for getting raped:
[S]ince women have decided to make men chase and act in an overly-aggressive fashion in order to get sex, the rape culture pervades society. Make no mistake about it, women invariably cause most rapes.
Oh, but ladies, TIC isn’t necessarily blaming you personally for being raped. You may be a perfectly virtuous woman. It’s all those other ladies who created the rape culture that got you raped.
Now, this is not to say that specific individuals who are victims of raped caused it or even desired it. The point is that women overall have created an environment in which only sexually aggressive, narcissistic, abrasive men are seen as sexually attractive (these traits are what women interpret as being “confident”).
They have created an environment in which “no” doesn’t mean “no”, it actually means “try harder, keep going, I want to be chased, I want to feel wanted even though you’ve already made it clear that you want me. I want to play games and toy with you until I’m satisfied.”
Huh. I thought women were only interested in aloof dudes who insult them and refuse to buy them drinks, not with supplicating so-called betas falling over themselves to chase women. At least that’s what all the Pickup Artists keep telling me.
But no. In TIC’s world, women are mysterious creatures who delight in mystifying men, and men have no choice but to try, and try, and try again.
Men are constantly placed in awkward, unsure situations because what women want is always esoteric.
If women are so “esoteric” how is it that so many of them manage to end up in relationships with people they love? Surely at some point they must have managed to convey to their partners what they wanted.
Should he approach? If she rejects him, should he continue his advances because that’s what she may want deep down? Who knows?
Who knows? You should know, dude, and if you don’t, you should find out. Seriously, if you honestly can’t tell if a woman wants to make out with you, or have sex with you, or even just watch an episode of Mad Men with you, STOP WHAT YOU’RE DOING and USE WORDS to ASK HER what she wants.
If you ask if she wants to have sex and she says no, assume she means no, and don’t have sex with her. And don’t assume she said “no” because she thinks you’re a spineless beta for asking. Seriously. If a woman really wants to have sex with you, chances are infinitesimally slim that she’s going to change her mind and throw you out simply because you actually asked her if she wants to have sex. (And if she is that sort of person, count your blessings that you’re not dating her, and move on.)
If the woman you’re pursuing is such a flighty game player that for some perverse manipulative reason she won’t say “yes” when she means “yes,” DON’T HAVE SEX WITH HER. Assume that anything short of a clear “yes” is a “no.” And maybe think about dating someone who can communicate what she wants more clearly.
If you assume that ambiguity means no, the worst that can happen is that miss out on having sex with someone who’s up for having sex with you, but who for some reason can’t or won’t tell you what she really wants. A missed chance to have sex is not the end of the world. If, by contrast, you assume that ambiguity means yes, the worst that can happen is that you rape someone. Err on the side of caution. Don’t err on the side of rape.
Unfortunately, like most of those who pretend that consent is somehow more complicated than quantum physics, TIC doesn’t actually seem much interested in figuring out the alleged mysteries of consent. He seems more interested in providing an excuse for men who want to pretend that consent is so hard, and women such mysterious creatures, that they just can’t help raping women.
For many men, leaving things to chance is not an option. They will continue to press the issue in order to find out the woman’s true intentions.
“Press the issue.” That may be the creepiest euphemism for rape I’ve run across yet.
Thus is the nature of women: enablers of the very thing they claim to despise the most.
No, it’s the nature of sexual predators to pretend that a clear verbal “no” from the target of their sexual advances means “keep pushing,” and, indeed, that any response short of a punch in the nose is evidence that their victim “really wants it.”
Rapists like to pretend that they somehow “misunderstood” the signals their victims gave them. But there’s good research showing that this just isn’t true – and that the predators know it. As Thomas Macaulay Millar has pointed out in a much-cited post on the Yes Means Yes blog, predators can read the signals from their victims just fine. It’s just that they don’t like what their victims are trying to tell them – that is, no. “[T]he notion that rape results from miscommunication is just wrong,” Millar writes. “Rape results from a refusal to heed, rather than an inability to understand, a rejection.”
And this is where predators and Nice Guys ™ find common cause. Predators don’t really care what their victims want, and will keep going regardless of whether or not they get a clear message to stop; pretending that women are mysterious creatures unable to convey what they want gives them a perfect excuse for their predatory behavior.
Nice Guys, by contrast, may not actually be confident enough to believe that the women they fixate on will ever say yes to them. And so they’re drawn to the same specious arguments about the alleged “esoteric” nature of women that predators spout — because these half-believed arguments enable them to pretend that ambigious signals — or even flat-out no’s — are yeses in disguise.
TIC’s argument doesn’t explain rape culture. His argument is rape culture.
Well, actually, if the other person doesn’t feel the same it’s never going to work out. Which adults accept, but these guys refuse to.
Jesus effin kerrist.
Okay, why is WordPress eating my commnents here and on other sites?
@shiraz
I…I’m trying to follow that logic. So, white women were thrown out of the ‘affirmative action’ club when they stopped needing it? That…makes sense, that affirmative action would just go to people who need it. I’m afraid I don’t follow it.
@anotherfrustratedchump
So, if the two of you end up trying to go on a date, can you not just like, ask?
Poor him, I guess he’ll just have to learn to deal with rejection, like most grown-ups do.
Wow, so now everyone should just try to mentally detect rapists? wft? They don’t have signs written on their foreheads that say ‘doesn’t take no for an answer’ you know.
I have found your answer! He should just ask, ffs.
More ‘just avoid the rapists’ instead of ‘rapists shouldn’t rape’.
sincerly wondering if this actually means ‘they were friends, and he assumed they were courting because he liked her but didn’t actually ask if she wanted to date or was already seeing someone else’. It’s not her job to correct his assumptions, it’s his, and he can do it by asking. That thing you seem to hate.
Because, I hate to break this to you, but women cannot see into the future. We don’t know if we’ll end up liking who we’re dating.
@jessay
Wow, that guy is such an asshole. May he step on a lego.
@katz
🙁 Good luck with your sick kitten.
Yeah, that story seems really weird as he puts it. Since there are all kinds of people in the world and none of us have ever met DMJ we can’t know that she wasn’t just some evil harpy playing with his feelings; maybe she was. But other possibilities that immediately suggest themselves upon reading this are
a) Marie:s version: He thought he was courting her, she sincerely thought they were just friends who liked to hang out occasionally. She didn’t feel like telling anyone else about this other dude whom she ended up marrying until she was really certain about other dude’s feelings, or something like that.
b) There was some poly thing going on, she was dating two guys simultaneously, and eventually decided to marry and go monogamous with one of them.
Both a and b would sincerely suck for Shultz, but none of them means DMJ was being either evil or mysterious.
Totally OT I so need to share right now that I think I finally got rid of the guy that doesn’t get what the word ‘no’ is for!
He kept calling me at all hours, then texted he would like to apologize. Then called again, and I finally gave up, took the call ant told him that a) it was so late it would be early soon, and b) that his apology was worthless(he didn’t even want to do it because of what he said, but that he was ‘overreacting’).
He then told me I should be more polite!(so, he wants to apologize, but only on his terms)
I said that someone who disrespected me, ignored my wishes and called in the night shouldn’t lecture me about politeness.
Anyway, just met him in the bus and he ignored me which feels weird but mostly relieving.
Long story short ending, but I didn’t expect I could tell him what I think, but I did!
And now I’ll get me something sugary as a reward.
@tomBcat
Yay! 😀
Tom: Well done!
Everyone: My kitten is still OK and I am looking for someone to administer fluids. I can’t go to a vet bc our rescue administers fluids itself…but all the medical distributors apparently have day jobs until 8 PM and won’t stay up late and are actually kind of terrible at it. Debating how early in the morning it’s ok to call.
Go TomBcat!
I can’t believe you forgot Nathan Fillion!
Yay for the cat and I hope you find someone soon!
On this note, I would rather eat my own shit than have kids. I mean, it’s not like I hate kids, I baby sit for my friend all the time, but I do not want full time responsibility of another human being ever. Plus, being pregnant. How poorly do you think that would mesh with with fibromyalgia?
And obvious disclaimer, this guy is an asshole.
And a huge entitlement from some guys when a girl does tell them no. I’ve only been asked out twice, thank god, and each time I just said “no” very blankly because i wasn’t interested. Each time, the boys who asked me out bullied me for the rest of the school year after I told them no*
*Yes, I’m still in school. 😛
@TomBcat for getting rid of that creepy guy
Yay!
@Chump
Is it still 1950 where you are?
Yes, that’s how dating works for all genders: nothing is guaranteed when another person’s mind and desires are involved. But you seem to think paying for dinner should guarantee something, which is making my skin crawl.
The rest of your comment seems to boil down to “don’t write him off immediately, give him a chance to learn how to please you, but tell him up-front that you’re not interested, or he’ll have put in all that effort for nothing.” In addition to being literally impossible to do both at once, has it occurred to you (or have you heard it said in this very discussion) that some people aren’t sure what they want from a particular person until later on?
And why do you assume it’s only the man (in a hetero relationship) putting in effort?
I’m derailing to say the boyfriend brought home scented fucking candles yesterday. They weren’ a present for me either, they were for him (so he could smoke in the bathroom). Is it misandry if men buy the candles?
Poor little Arya, and poor worried katz. I hope by now you’ve found someone with fluids for her! 🙁
And love the new gravatar, lowquacks, and good for you TomBCat.
@bad_dog
Wait, a man..bought a scented fucking candle? *brain explodes*
The Chump is spouting stupid EvPsych.
Aren’t Dark Triad genes related to the “Sexy Sons” hypothesis, in that women who can bag the genes of men who act superficially intriguing/charming but won’t stick around to parent the children he’s conceived benefit in the long run by having sons who can repeat this process?
No.
Here’s the problem with that hypothesis, as more than a “just so story”. It requires an urban environment. It is predicate on the ability of the dude to be able to 1: get laid, and 2: leave.
In a hunting/gathering society the former is quite possible, but the latter isn’t. Groups are small (20-50 people), and they are stable. A guy isn’t going to be able to waltz in, have his fun, and leave. It can happen, occasionally, but outsiders tend to be viewed with reserve.
Move to agricultural societies and the freedom to “fuck and flee” goes down a lot. Women are more controlled. The ability to have a child which isn’t killed after he leaves is is much reduced.
So, as an, “evolutionary” justification it fails.
What problem? The issue you pretend exists, isn’t a problem; unless you think what someone says isn’t to be listened to. If a person really want’s to fuck, and decides to pretend they don’t no one gets harmed.
If someone doesn’t want to fuck, and you pretend they do… then you don’t have a “Schrödinger’s Consent” problem… you have a rape problem; because you raped that person.
As for “note how the hypothetical man isn’t trying to figure out what the woman wants, just what she’ll allow him to do to her,
I don’t want to do to I want to do with.
but you can’t just look at someone on the street and determine whether they’re looking for a quick hookup, or a long-term relationship, or open dating, etc. If people were more upfront about what they were open to and not open to right from the beginning, we wouldn’t have so much confusion based around differing expectations.
What confusion? There are people who want casual sex. Some might want it with you. You aske them. They respond. If they say yes… YAY! If they say no, you say, “Ok,” and ask someone else.
No confusion at all. Unless, of course, you don’t want to take no for an answer. There is a word for people who don’t take no for an answer.
Rapist.
If she aborts the process, he’s up for feeling shortchanged
The fuck? If someone looks at the desset menu and says, “no, I guess not” is the restaurant entitled to bill them? No. If I go into a liquor store and examine a lot of expensive wine, talk to the clerks, peruse the Single Malts and decide I don’t want anything have I “shortchanged them? Can they force me to take a bottle of tequila home?
No.
It’s the same with sex. If someone don’t wanna, they don’t gotta.
Chump: As for “not sexually compatible,” how much room do you give a man you’re interested in to learn what pleases you? How do you determine how good a student of your preferences he’ll be, just from the first kiss?
Sometimes.
As for “note how the hypothetical man isn’t trying to figure out what the woman wants, just what she’ll allow him to do to her, are men mind readers? How can he do so without asking?
He can’t. That was easy.
Asking has always been pretty good for me. I ask, they respond, we move on from there.
I see, we’re talking about different contexts. I was speaking about the context in which people looking for relationships detect others whose interests are similarly aligned.
Dude, if you can’t ask, then a relationship isn’t gonna work.
And what the hell… are you saying you walk down the street, see someone and say, “Wow… I’d like to spend the rest of my life with them?
No, because you said… let me see…
That’s an entire gamut of sexual/relational choices. some of those work with a simple statement/question (e.g., “Wow, I like the way you move, wanna fuck?” [high rejection rate, with the occasional slap, but when it does work, you are likely to have a good time. Her percieved odds of having a good time with strongly affect her response), and some need time (e.g., “Wow, I like the way you move, want to settle down, get married and make graceful babies?” is probably never going to work out).
That you decided to gloss all of that into, “Men have to do all the work; in the dark” is either stupidly ignorant of how real people work, or dishonestly changing your tune.
Those who are inclined to rape regardless of indications to the contrary should be universally avoided in the relationship quarter,
That’s what we are saying. People who won’t take a simple no for an answer should be avoided, and even shunned.
even though I’m certain that DMJ could tell that a three-year courtship wasn’t just “being a good friend”–the cartoonist would have been spared all that ifDMJ told him earlier that she was engaged to someone else.
Gee… ya think maybe that if Schulz had been more actively interested; or had paid more attention he might have avoided 1: being “too late” and 2: have known she was seeing someone else?
How could he have done that? Oh… I know, he could have, asked her questions.
And if you find that out later on and for whatever reason have run out of reasons to give him the benefit of the doubt, what about giving some courtesy (which costs nothing)
Wow… now you know that the people who “don’t click” are all being cruel and heartless when they say so.
Amazing powers of deduction there Kreskin.
It seems your real complaint is that women don’t have signs on their neck saying, “I wanna fuck YOU! NOW!!!” when they are in the mood. You have to talk to them, and find out what they like, and see if you click, and sometimes they don’t know the moment you walk up.
Then again, I see a lot of guys complaining that women figure it out right away, but that’s bad because, “they never give a Nice Guy™ a chance.
Dvärghundspossen: b) There was some poly thing going on, she was dating two guys simultaneously, and eventually decided to marry and go monogamous with one of them.
Actually, at the time Schulz was dating the norm was to date more than one person. It was a bit later that, “going steady” became a thing. Lots of parents didn’t like it, because they thought it would lead to people marrying without finding out what they needed/wanted in a partner.
So he didn’t make his mind up until someone else asked her. This was a normal thing. And as I forget who pointed out, the details Chump gave us were a bit less than accurate.
Argenti: lowquacks — never heard of minties, but it looks like salt water taffy is mostly/solely a US thing, and from around here too no less.
I’ve never had trouble finding it. There is a marvelous store in Old Sacramento, which is full of barrels of salt-water taffy. I can’t recall the amount of time I’ve spent (in Calif.) watching taffy-pulling machines at work.
Shiraz: I…I’m trying to follow that logic. So, white women were thrown out of the ‘affirmative action’ club when they stopped needing it? That…makes sense, that affirmative action would just go to people who need it. I’m afraid I don’t follow it.
I think the argument is that Affirmative Action was never needed; so getting it was a freebie, and undeserved, and now that they are being denied their undeserved access to things they will complain.
Which shows how shallow and venal they are.
I don’t know if I’m being overly dismissive here, but if you are trying to figure out “what a woman will let you do” you are close to being in rapist territory. After all someone will let you do all sorts of things they wouldn’t otherwise if you put a gun to their head and told them you’d shoot them if they didn’t. I know it will seem unreasonable to a lot of MRA but I hate the idea sexual contact is down to the point of how strongly I can be bothered to resist before the costs of resistance no longer become worth the pay off.
Pear_tree: I don’t think you are being dismissive. I think it’s at least close to rapist territory.
Update: Arya/Violet got her fluids. The medical coordinator is not really sure why she’s losing weight, so the best I can do is keep her hydrated, keep her blood sugar up, and give her a little amoxicillin just in case.