Blog posts by the New Misogynists I write about here often seem to be little more than combinations and recombinations of a relatively small number of very bad ideas. Today, let’s look at a blog post from a “conservative libertarian” and creepy Nice Guy ™ who identifies himself only as TIC, which combines a bit of “consent is hard” and “women only like bad boys” with some muddled notions from Evo Psych to conclude that women are such mysterious creatures that no one could possibly know what they really want — and so therefore it’s women who are the ones who are really responsible when they get raped.
It’s an argument that bears a strong similarity to the stories rapists tell themselves to excuse their actions. When people describe so-called Nice Guys ™ as creepy, this is why: in a lot of ways, they think like predators. In the case of TIC here, exactly like predators.
TIC starts off by ridiculing the notion that “no means no.”
Women are notorious for always warning men that “no means no”. For us men who have dealt with enough women, we know this to be pure malarkey. If “no” always meant “no”, many men would die virgins. There would also be fewer rapes as a result, because for once women would mean what they said instead of talking in indirect code language.
And now the victim blaming begins in earnest:
Women, many times, bring rape upon themselves. They purposely reject men, even ones they are interested in, in order to get him to chase her. Since women love to be the prize and the center of attention, leading a man on a wild goose chase through all sorts of hoops and mind games is all too common in today’s society.
Now, if this were actually true it would be, well, sort of annoying for straight men who don’t like jumping through hoops. TIC, though, seems to have convinced himself that the fact that some women play coy in the dating world somehow makes it literally impossible for men to tell when and if they’re raping a woman.
What this does is blur the line between what is acceptable for a man to do to a woman and what is not…because once we can all agree that women want to be chased, we can understand what a predicament it puts men into. Since “no” does not always mean “no”, there is no real way for a man to know when to stop his advances upon a woman.
TIC now pulls out some half-baked Evo Psych to bolster his alleged argument:
My theory as to why women give such pieces of advice goes back to dark triad genes or the lack thereof. You see, when a woman tells a man that he should just be himself, or to respect women, or to give them compliments, or that “no means no”, what she is actually doing is bullshitting the male. This is a weeding out mechanism that women use in order to ensure that men who don’t get it never will.
He follows this up with a fairly standard Nice Guy ™ whine.
You see, women do not want nice guys to propagate their genes. They do not wish for them to be successful with women. This is why advice coming from women is never good; it has been sabotaged from the get-go.
Well, actually, If women are telling Nice Guys ™ that “no means no” because they don’t want to have sex with these Nice Guys ™ aren’t these women, however mean you think they are, communicating what they want pretty clearly?
TIC moves on to another standard Nice Guy ™ complaint: that women actually get to turn down men for sex. Never mind that men also have the right to refuse sex with anyone they want. To the dedicated Nice Guy ™, the fact that women can say “no” means that they’re the ones running the show. And doing a terrible job of it, to boot.
Women have the power and control in the dating scene. This is important to note because it means that any and every problem with society in the context of female-male relations falls on the shoulders of women themselves.
And we’re back in Evo Psych-land again:
If women decide to start dating men who are genuine, nice, and honest, then that is what most men will become. Since women, however, are only attracted to males with dark triad genes, that is what most men strive to be. The ones that do not either are alone or being used.
Therefore, women are responsible for getting raped:
[S]ince women have decided to make men chase and act in an overly-aggressive fashion in order to get sex, the rape culture pervades society. Make no mistake about it, women invariably cause most rapes.
Oh, but ladies, TIC isn’t necessarily blaming you personally for being raped. You may be a perfectly virtuous woman. It’s all those other ladies who created the rape culture that got you raped.
Now, this is not to say that specific individuals who are victims of raped caused it or even desired it. The point is that women overall have created an environment in which only sexually aggressive, narcissistic, abrasive men are seen as sexually attractive (these traits are what women interpret as being “confident”).
They have created an environment in which “no” doesn’t mean “no”, it actually means “try harder, keep going, I want to be chased, I want to feel wanted even though you’ve already made it clear that you want me. I want to play games and toy with you until I’m satisfied.”
Huh. I thought women were only interested in aloof dudes who insult them and refuse to buy them drinks, not with supplicating so-called betas falling over themselves to chase women. At least that’s what all the Pickup Artists keep telling me.
But no. In TIC’s world, women are mysterious creatures who delight in mystifying men, and men have no choice but to try, and try, and try again.
Men are constantly placed in awkward, unsure situations because what women want is always esoteric.
If women are so “esoteric” how is it that so many of them manage to end up in relationships with people they love? Surely at some point they must have managed to convey to their partners what they wanted.
Should he approach? If she rejects him, should he continue his advances because that’s what she may want deep down? Who knows?
Who knows? You should know, dude, and if you don’t, you should find out. Seriously, if you honestly can’t tell if a woman wants to make out with you, or have sex with you, or even just watch an episode of Mad Men with you, STOP WHAT YOU’RE DOING and USE WORDS to ASK HER what she wants.
If you ask if she wants to have sex and she says no, assume she means no, and don’t have sex with her. And don’t assume she said “no” because she thinks you’re a spineless beta for asking. Seriously. If a woman really wants to have sex with you, chances are infinitesimally slim that she’s going to change her mind and throw you out simply because you actually asked her if she wants to have sex. (And if she is that sort of person, count your blessings that you’re not dating her, and move on.)
If the woman you’re pursuing is such a flighty game player that for some perverse manipulative reason she won’t say “yes” when she means “yes,” DON’T HAVE SEX WITH HER. Assume that anything short of a clear “yes” is a “no.” And maybe think about dating someone who can communicate what she wants more clearly.
If you assume that ambiguity means no, the worst that can happen is that miss out on having sex with someone who’s up for having sex with you, but who for some reason can’t or won’t tell you what she really wants. A missed chance to have sex is not the end of the world. If, by contrast, you assume that ambiguity means yes, the worst that can happen is that you rape someone. Err on the side of caution. Don’t err on the side of rape.
Unfortunately, like most of those who pretend that consent is somehow more complicated than quantum physics, TIC doesn’t actually seem much interested in figuring out the alleged mysteries of consent. He seems more interested in providing an excuse for men who want to pretend that consent is so hard, and women such mysterious creatures, that they just can’t help raping women.
For many men, leaving things to chance is not an option. They will continue to press the issue in order to find out the woman’s true intentions.
“Press the issue.” That may be the creepiest euphemism for rape I’ve run across yet.
Thus is the nature of women: enablers of the very thing they claim to despise the most.
No, it’s the nature of sexual predators to pretend that a clear verbal “no” from the target of their sexual advances means “keep pushing,” and, indeed, that any response short of a punch in the nose is evidence that their victim “really wants it.”
Rapists like to pretend that they somehow “misunderstood” the signals their victims gave them. But there’s good research showing that this just isn’t true – and that the predators know it. As Thomas Macaulay Millar has pointed out in a much-cited post on the Yes Means Yes blog, predators can read the signals from their victims just fine. It’s just that they don’t like what their victims are trying to tell them – that is, no. “[T]he notion that rape results from miscommunication is just wrong,” Millar writes. “Rape results from a refusal to heed, rather than an inability to understand, a rejection.”
And this is where predators and Nice Guys ™ find common cause. Predators don’t really care what their victims want, and will keep going regardless of whether or not they get a clear message to stop; pretending that women are mysterious creatures unable to convey what they want gives them a perfect excuse for their predatory behavior.
Nice Guys, by contrast, may not actually be confident enough to believe that the women they fixate on will ever say yes to them. And so they’re drawn to the same specious arguments about the alleged “esoteric” nature of women that predators spout — because these half-believed arguments enable them to pretend that ambigious signals — or even flat-out no’s — are yeses in disguise.
TIC’s argument doesn’t explain rape culture. His argument is rape culture.
Now* rather then not, In my third ‘paragraph’.
Ok, maybe I got a bit carried away with my last example…
Quote; Tit;
“So no woman of sense has ever been alone with a guy in a location where sex can take place without tacitly agreeing to sex.
All those taxi rides, all those times women have ordered room service or popped round to a male friend’s house to help him trim his chickens’ flight feathers & treat them for mites. All tacit invitations for sex. How could I have been so naive?”
Don’t be ridiculous.
JS: if you’re so happily married, why is this such a big deal for you?
Nice flip-flops, BTW.
JS, can you honestly not smell the stench of date rape wafting off of that?
I asked the question earlier hoping it would give you a hint.
Let’s try it from a guy’s perspective, one who buys into all of the toxic masculinity you espouse despite having been burned by it yourself.
“This girl came home with me after a nice date! She must want to have sex, but I should play it cool. Oh, she’s playing with her hair and making eye contact! She just touched my arm, it must be go time!
What? She’s saying stop? She must be playing coy! I read about this somewhere. It’s part of a game girls play. They just want to be dominated, right? If I don’t follow through and ignore her protests, she won’t like me and I won’t get sex, which I’m supposed to be getting cause she came home with me tonight! No girl who didn’t want sex would be alone with a gut someplace sex can happen. Right?”
fromafar2013, I just want to say I respect what your doing, right? I like that your sincerely reaching out here and trying to open a line of communication. I can really respect that.
I just want you to be aware, I doubt this person is trying to debate us in good faith. I think they came here to stir trouble up, or to repeatedly post their pre-conceived biases over and over, so I would not invest *too* much energy in what your trying to do, Alright?
Thanks, marinaliteyears. I’m really just procrastinating at work. 😛 I should be taking screenshots of the lab imaging pipeline for the wiki instead of hanging out on Manboobz. But meh, I still have coffee left, and no tickets yet, so yay free time!
But that’s what you said, Mr Ridiculous.
At least we’ve solved the curious behaviour of young women suddenly finding you irresistible in your middle age. They’re not. You think that when these young women are happy to be alone with you, it’s because they want sex. It’s not. They’re not coming onto you. They’re not even thinking about sex in the same moment as you.
Oh, ok. Plus, upon rereading what I just said, It kinda came off.. uh.. condescending, or something. Least your just killing time, like myself =P
Seconding that.
Mildly impressed with the play for sympathy with the whole Bible Belt character who doesn’t know any better but then “I’m a happily married 52 year old farmer” who just happens to spend hours on a social justice website arguing that PUAs and Nice GuysTM are totally right while talking about “horny women”, claiming to be oh so Southern gentleman, “mam” and calling me “tit”? Not buying it.
You could stock a beach with this guys’ flipflops. Just wondering if there’s a faint whiff of sock …
No, I didn’t get condescending at all! And yeah, it’s this or cat memes. Speaking of which…
http://readrosemary.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/grumpy-cat-entertained.jpg
@titanblue
Yeah, the Flip flops in general are pretty telling. The angle seems to be all over the place, first being Someone who has a very.. modern PUA view of things, then a 52 year old farmer. And with opinions and questions changing when convenient. It seems like a pretty strong tip-off. Oh well, It seems in my nature to give benefits of doubt anyway, even if only out of a desire to waste time. Keyboard warrior and all that.
@fromafar2013
Well hey, that works then. Ive had a problem recently coming off more hostile to others on this site before, so, I may be just be over thinking my posts.That link however, is awesome. Im going to happily share that picture, heeh.
I guess DSW Shoes was having a BOGO on sandals.
Socks with sandals! Socks with sandals! OMG!
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/09/0948de7f7def00a7a511db2421a6384fe6b383ef135b73aaad78c0c5d73845f8.jpg
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m77ahmqYEp1ql2603o1_500.jpg
And just to mix it up: http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/454/241/4d9/resized/socks-meme-generator-imagine-a-day-when-socks-with-sandals-was-not-frowned-upon-4f574d.jpg?1339687777.jpg
Full disclosure, I wear socks with my house slippers, in my house. Only in my house!! Or to take the dogs to poop.
I’m a big fan of baggy socks in the depths of winter. I’ve taken up knitting again after several decades & part of the master plan is to learn to turn a heel and so be able to know myself socks with all the oddments of wool.
Summer, though, I prefer barefoot as much as possible. 🙂
Based on the posts, it seems like the troll was in the middle of an improvisation class as he responded to everyone here. I kept picturing an acting coach shouting direction at him every so often.
“You’re a PUA who who believes in game. Go!”
Then:
“You’re a put upon working class gent who has been sexual harassed. Action!”
And finally:
“You’re a married, 52-year-old farmer from the south. But you use phrasing that’s not common to your demo and you have an icky preoccupation with who “hot” girls rattle and why. Oh, and wanking and mansplaining are interchangeable to you. Action!”
And finally, the acting coach said something like, “Now take all the roles and play them all at once! I wanna see some heavy flip-flopping, you got me?”
Yeah. Fun times.
Totally not creepy at all.
Why are necrotrolls always so damn tedious?
Well, it looks like I’m late to the party and the troll has departed. Still, I’ll bite.
The reason your posts come across is rapey is that you keep casting women in a passive object role and the men in the active subject role. There is such a thing as non-verbal consent, but you have to be actually be attuned to your partner to know when you have it. If a woman is consenting she will actually be actively kissing back, touching, taking her clothes or his off. If a woman is just lying there “allowing” it to happen she might be too drunk to consent or too intimidated to say know, especially if you are being extremely aggressive. Or else you’re just a really bad lover. If a partner is not actively participating you need to back off and find out if she really wants to be having sex.
The term friend zone was coined in an episode of the TV show friends. Ross was interested in dating Rachel who was his friend. He was too nervous to do anything about it. Of course the notion that you can’t escape the friend zone was contradicted in the very same show. Ross and Rachel did end up in an on and off relationship despite being friends. Monica and Chandler were friends first and ended up together too. It’s hilarious that the show spawned that term and so many people bought into it.
If a woman isn’t interested in you, it’s because she isn’t interested. “I don’t want to spoil the friendship” is a nice way of saying “I don’t find you attractive.” When this rejection happens, it would have happened if the man had acted sooner. Friendships turn into relationships all the time.
Citation needed on both points. If women only want relationships and no sex, then why have I (and many other women) had consensual casual sex with men without having any regrets. It was in fact what I intended in the first place. It wasn’t a ploy to get into a relationship. Also, how come in relationships between women, sex takes place. Are you saying lesbians don’t like sex?
On the flip side, why are there gay men in monogamous relationships if all men want is casual sex? Maybe you don’t know any gay men. If not, please watch news footage of what happens when states legalize gay marriage. A lot of men in long term relationships that considered themselves married in all ways but legal jumped at the chance to have their marriages recognized by the state.
In fact you yourself said you preferred relationships to casual sex. Do you think you’re the only straight man who feels that way? You aren’t. As we’ve been trying to explain to you, people are individuals. We all have our own needs and desires.
Are you trying to claim that there are no relationships where the woman is more dominant? What a load of crap. Some people are more assertive than others. It isn’t gendered. Some relationships have one person as the more dominant one. Some are more egalitarian. Personally, I prefer the later. Coming from a line of strong women, I can guarantee you I will never be the stepford wife type.
Again, everyone is different. Every relationship is different. There isn’t some natural order of things where men have to act one way and women another. If you’re going to make that claim, you need a hell of a lot more evidence than just because you said so.
JS need not apologize for being a man; he should be apologize TO all the men, ’cause he’s making us look like monsters.
“Women alone with men are asking for it”. Where the hell are you from? Do women need to be in the company of a male relative at all times there?
You see, women need chaperones to protect men from being raped when she’s alone with a man.
But the chaperone can’t be another man, or else she’ll just have two rapists with her.
It can’t be a woman, either, because you’ll just have two defenseless women with a rapist.
I guess all women should walk around with mandrills in tow. Getting your face eaten would teach men good manners. Because women are safer with a violent wild animal than with men. Logic!
*to protect them
I don’t need you to apologize for me, troll. I am not a rapist, nor am I a rape apologist. Apologize TO me and other men for trying to paint us as being like you.
And lastly, painting men as wild beasts who would rape women at the drop of a hat is not an argument for restricting the lives of women or forcing them to give men what they want. It’s an argument for locking MEN until they can prove they can function as civilized beings.
Called it!
RED ALERT! Nice Guy in the Henhouse! Initiate stuck-up bitch protocol!
The thing you’re not getting is that there is no Platonic Ideal of male/female interaction. Men are people, and women are people, so every relationship (hetero or otherwise, romantic, sexual or otherwise) is going to be a negotiation between the needs and wants of individuals. There’s not magical formula where women = x, men = y, so man + woman = z.
And like most men who’ve asked that question, he failed to ask it of women.
My religion openly embraces feminism, so…
Yeah, I’m sure this has nothing to do with the aforementioned myth that women don’t like or want sex, or our culture’s puritanical belief that we should be ashamed for wanting/having sex.
If my partner was merely “not resisting” rather than enthusiastically participating, I would assume something was wrong. At the very least, it would be unsatisfying for me, and at the worst, it would be rape, so I can’t really see the appeal here.
What a sad life you must live. And your poor wife…