Blog posts by the New Misogynists I write about here often seem to be little more than combinations and recombinations of a relatively small number of very bad ideas. Today, let’s look at a blog post from a “conservative libertarian” and creepy Nice Guy ™ who identifies himself only as TIC, which combines a bit of “consent is hard” and “women only like bad boys” with some muddled notions from Evo Psych to conclude that women are such mysterious creatures that no one could possibly know what they really want — and so therefore it’s women who are the ones who are really responsible when they get raped.
It’s an argument that bears a strong similarity to the stories rapists tell themselves to excuse their actions. When people describe so-called Nice Guys ™ as creepy, this is why: in a lot of ways, they think like predators. In the case of TIC here, exactly like predators.
TIC starts off by ridiculing the notion that “no means no.”
Women are notorious for always warning men that “no means no”. For us men who have dealt with enough women, we know this to be pure malarkey. If “no” always meant “no”, many men would die virgins. There would also be fewer rapes as a result, because for once women would mean what they said instead of talking in indirect code language.
And now the victim blaming begins in earnest:
Women, many times, bring rape upon themselves. They purposely reject men, even ones they are interested in, in order to get him to chase her. Since women love to be the prize and the center of attention, leading a man on a wild goose chase through all sorts of hoops and mind games is all too common in today’s society.
Now, if this were actually true it would be, well, sort of annoying for straight men who don’t like jumping through hoops. TIC, though, seems to have convinced himself that the fact that some women play coy in the dating world somehow makes it literally impossible for men to tell when and if they’re raping a woman.
What this does is blur the line between what is acceptable for a man to do to a woman and what is not…because once we can all agree that women want to be chased, we can understand what a predicament it puts men into. Since “no” does not always mean “no”, there is no real way for a man to know when to stop his advances upon a woman.
TIC now pulls out some half-baked Evo Psych to bolster his alleged argument:
My theory as to why women give such pieces of advice goes back to dark triad genes or the lack thereof. You see, when a woman tells a man that he should just be himself, or to respect women, or to give them compliments, or that “no means no”, what she is actually doing is bullshitting the male. This is a weeding out mechanism that women use in order to ensure that men who don’t get it never will.
He follows this up with a fairly standard Nice Guy ™ whine.
You see, women do not want nice guys to propagate their genes. They do not wish for them to be successful with women. This is why advice coming from women is never good; it has been sabotaged from the get-go.
Well, actually, If women are telling Nice Guys ™ that “no means no” because they don’t want to have sex with these Nice Guys ™ aren’t these women, however mean you think they are, communicating what they want pretty clearly?
TIC moves on to another standard Nice Guy ™ complaint: that women actually get to turn down men for sex. Never mind that men also have the right to refuse sex with anyone they want. To the dedicated Nice Guy ™, the fact that women can say “no” means that they’re the ones running the show. And doing a terrible job of it, to boot.
Women have the power and control in the dating scene. This is important to note because it means that any and every problem with society in the context of female-male relations falls on the shoulders of women themselves.
And we’re back in Evo Psych-land again:
If women decide to start dating men who are genuine, nice, and honest, then that is what most men will become. Since women, however, are only attracted to males with dark triad genes, that is what most men strive to be. The ones that do not either are alone or being used.
Therefore, women are responsible for getting raped:
[S]ince women have decided to make men chase and act in an overly-aggressive fashion in order to get sex, the rape culture pervades society. Make no mistake about it, women invariably cause most rapes.
Oh, but ladies, TIC isn’t necessarily blaming you personally for being raped. You may be a perfectly virtuous woman. It’s all those other ladies who created the rape culture that got you raped.
Now, this is not to say that specific individuals who are victims of raped caused it or even desired it. The point is that women overall have created an environment in which only sexually aggressive, narcissistic, abrasive men are seen as sexually attractive (these traits are what women interpret as being “confident”).
They have created an environment in which “no” doesn’t mean “no”, it actually means “try harder, keep going, I want to be chased, I want to feel wanted even though you’ve already made it clear that you want me. I want to play games and toy with you until I’m satisfied.”
Huh. I thought women were only interested in aloof dudes who insult them and refuse to buy them drinks, not with supplicating so-called betas falling over themselves to chase women. At least that’s what all the Pickup Artists keep telling me.
But no. In TIC’s world, women are mysterious creatures who delight in mystifying men, and men have no choice but to try, and try, and try again.
Men are constantly placed in awkward, unsure situations because what women want is always esoteric.
If women are so “esoteric” how is it that so many of them manage to end up in relationships with people they love? Surely at some point they must have managed to convey to their partners what they wanted.
Should he approach? If she rejects him, should he continue his advances because that’s what she may want deep down? Who knows?
Who knows? You should know, dude, and if you don’t, you should find out. Seriously, if you honestly can’t tell if a woman wants to make out with you, or have sex with you, or even just watch an episode of Mad Men with you, STOP WHAT YOU’RE DOING and USE WORDS to ASK HER what she wants.
If you ask if she wants to have sex and she says no, assume she means no, and don’t have sex with her. And don’t assume she said “no” because she thinks you’re a spineless beta for asking. Seriously. If a woman really wants to have sex with you, chances are infinitesimally slim that she’s going to change her mind and throw you out simply because you actually asked her if she wants to have sex. (And if she is that sort of person, count your blessings that you’re not dating her, and move on.)
If the woman you’re pursuing is such a flighty game player that for some perverse manipulative reason she won’t say “yes” when she means “yes,” DON’T HAVE SEX WITH HER. Assume that anything short of a clear “yes” is a “no.” And maybe think about dating someone who can communicate what she wants more clearly.
If you assume that ambiguity means no, the worst that can happen is that miss out on having sex with someone who’s up for having sex with you, but who for some reason can’t or won’t tell you what she really wants. A missed chance to have sex is not the end of the world. If, by contrast, you assume that ambiguity means yes, the worst that can happen is that you rape someone. Err on the side of caution. Don’t err on the side of rape.
Unfortunately, like most of those who pretend that consent is somehow more complicated than quantum physics, TIC doesn’t actually seem much interested in figuring out the alleged mysteries of consent. He seems more interested in providing an excuse for men who want to pretend that consent is so hard, and women such mysterious creatures, that they just can’t help raping women.
For many men, leaving things to chance is not an option. They will continue to press the issue in order to find out the woman’s true intentions.
“Press the issue.” That may be the creepiest euphemism for rape I’ve run across yet.
Thus is the nature of women: enablers of the very thing they claim to despise the most.
No, it’s the nature of sexual predators to pretend that a clear verbal “no” from the target of their sexual advances means “keep pushing,” and, indeed, that any response short of a punch in the nose is evidence that their victim “really wants it.”
Rapists like to pretend that they somehow “misunderstood” the signals their victims gave them. But there’s good research showing that this just isn’t true – and that the predators know it. As Thomas Macaulay Millar has pointed out in a much-cited post on the Yes Means Yes blog, predators can read the signals from their victims just fine. It’s just that they don’t like what their victims are trying to tell them – that is, no. “[T]he notion that rape results from miscommunication is just wrong,” Millar writes. “Rape results from a refusal to heed, rather than an inability to understand, a rejection.”
And this is where predators and Nice Guys ™ find common cause. Predators don’t really care what their victims want, and will keep going regardless of whether or not they get a clear message to stop; pretending that women are mysterious creatures unable to convey what they want gives them a perfect excuse for their predatory behavior.
Nice Guys, by contrast, may not actually be confident enough to believe that the women they fixate on will ever say yes to them. And so they’re drawn to the same specious arguments about the alleged “esoteric” nature of women that predators spout — because these half-believed arguments enable them to pretend that ambigious signals — or even flat-out no’s — are yeses in disguise.
TIC’s argument doesn’t explain rape culture. His argument is rape culture.
I’m not angry, JackShit, I’m contemptuous.
Woman love sex.(but not all women.) Men love sex.(but not all men.) You know what woman and men don’t like? Being forced to have ‘sex’ they don’t want, which is rape. Some men, and some woman do not feel ‘strongly’ enough against an act they do not want to say no, particularly if they think they will be ridiculed for saying no, such as in the case of being pressured into the sex by a romantic partner, or thinking that they will get in trouble.
Men are not beasts that cannot control their sexuality, I have faith that men and Woman can communicate what they mean to each other, and have a good time. End of story.
You do men a serous disservice by conflating ‘being a man’ and this trite you pretend is ‘being a man’ and then acting like we are trying to guilt you for ‘being a man’, even though being a man has nothing to do with this. We are ridiculing you for pretending woman only respond to aggressive sexuality,(untrue.) And we are ridiculing you for pretending that it is somehow natural for men to want some kind of wild aggressive sex without permission.
Is it really a chore to ask a question, and wait for an enthusiastic response? Is it *really* such a burden to *Not* have sex with woman who don’t consent? Is it *really* worth risking pushing someone into sex they don’t want, just because you feel uncomfortable asking?
You know what? don’t answer. I bet I would hate your answers.
Sorry, was I being unclear? I apologize if that was the case – I would never want you to be apologize for being a man (I find men quite wonderful, and I quite like being one myself), nor would I ever insinuate that women don’t like sex. One is odd, because there’s nothing wrong with being a man, and the other is untrue, as people of all kinds tend to quite like sex.
My experience is they do, anyhow, hawr hawr hawr hawr
I was hinting, however, that your claims were a false standard by which you measure things, and that you may have confused “Being a person” for “Leading by example and disregarding others, and escalating at all times” which then somehow slipped into “all feminine women are coy and must be captured by masculine clever tricks”, which is just odd.
Let me explain, J.S.
You start with saying:
Which conflates “Having company” with “Being sexual” -, despite mentioning “You want a friend, then plan on never having sex with her”. You conclude:” Lead or be lonely”, which is untrue – you could have friends, and also misguided – you could have friends and sleep with them. It’s fun. I recommend it, if that’s your kind of thing.
Then you move to:
Which is odd, because you say that no women are respnosible for your choices (But you didn’t enjoy being an emotional punching bag for years) and you regret all the things you didn’t do – the implication being that the things you didn’t do made women act in a certain way towards you, badly.
So which is it? Are they responsible or not? Are you responsible or not? It’s inconsistent, which is an odd standard.
finally, we get
Which is again, strange, because women at large aren’t responsible for you, but yet it’s still their fault you were an emotional punching bag and it’s their fault they felt the things they did. You blame yourself for their entire life, frame and mental situation. You’ve become the nexus on which the inner world of those around you turn.
But you just said women and men were not responsible for other women and men. So which is it? It’s an inconsistent standard!
So everyone sits around wondering why they’re not happy, content to dump their frustrations, but you can still control their minds without being responsible and yet being responsible for their inner state, because other people have turned a frame on its head (Those other people not responsible for your own life, that is)
I think women like sex. I think men like sex. I think human beings, in general, like sex, unless they don’t. I would never want anyone to apologize for who they are, at the core, because deying someone their entire existence is both uncouth and silly.
But I do, for the love of the gods of all the religions I have studied, want people not to be assholes about the inner states and lives of others, and not boil the entire prospect of intimiate relations down to “Just lead, take them somewhere, and press for sex! Escalate, escalate, escalate, and you’ll get laid!” because while the “idea” of the theory works somewhat in its “Display a bit of confidence and let people know you do want to sleep with them” basic assumption, it goes to HELL when people like YOU use it to set up a situation where stupid people end up pressing others for sex at inappropriate times.
Oh, and if we could avoid the entire “Women don’t know what they want, so show them (Your dick)” that’d be great too.
It’s just odd, is what I’m saying. At least be entirely honest in that neither you nor Freud know what every woman wants, and that thinking you do is a false standard.
BOOM, TRIPLE QUOTATION REFERENCE, my caffiene related powers knows no limits.
Fibinachi, Can I just say that your awesome?
I Am maybe a bit too tired to go into depth of why your awesome, but you win like.. A thousand imaginary points with me for that articulate deconstruction of J.S.’s post.
*Bows head in awe at Finiachi’s caffiene-powered mastery of blockquotes*
I think I need some coffee.
Quote; marinaliteyears
“Woman love sex.(but not all women.) Men love sex.(but not all men.) You know what woman and men don’t like? Being forced to have ‘sex’ they don’t want, which is rape. Some men, and some woman do not feel ‘strongly’ enough against an act they do not want to say no, particularly if they think they will be ridiculed for saying no, such as in the case of being pressured into the sex by a romantic partner, or thinking that they will get in trouble.
Men are not beasts that cannot control their sexuality, I have faith that men and Woman can communicate what they mean to each other, and have a good time. End of story.
You do men a serous disservice by conflating ‘being a man’ and this trite you pretend is ‘being a man’ and then acting like we are trying to guilt you for ‘being a man’, even though being a man has nothing to do with this. We are ridiculing you for pretending woman only respond to aggressive sexuality,(untrue.) And we are ridiculing you for pretending that it is somehow natural for men to want some kind of wild aggressive sex without permission.
Is it really a chore to ask a question, and wait for an enthusiastic response? Is it *really* such a burden to *Not* have sex with woman who don’t consent? Is it *really* worth risking pushing someone into sex they don’t want, just because you feel uncomfortable asking?
You know what? don’t answer. I bet I would hate your answers.”
Your assertions are so ridiculous I’m not sure how to respond.
Let me say that nothing in any of my posts involved ‘rape’. This word was constantly used by others here, as a figment of their imagination.
The fact is, you don’t ask women to have sex unless you’ve known them for a good while, or are in a relationship. And you never ask them to ‘have sex’ before you’ve actually had sex with them the first time. Or the only thing you’ll be getting is a cold shoulder.
This is why women are so fond of the expression, it just happened.
Again, nope it doesn’t ‘just happen’. It happens early in relationships because she allows him to be alone with her, allows herself to become aroused, then doesn’t resist.
Then the relationship starts.
I used to have a joke I expressed with my mother when I was younger, recently divorced and trying to explain why I didn’t have a girlfriend at the time. I noticed relationships seemed to follow a pattern where I was living. I told her, mom I’m a little confused. I try to get to know the girl first, then have sex. But around here it seems that first you have sex, then get to know her.
And if you didn’t push for sex when it’s offered (non-verbally), or set a sexual frame with her from the start. You were in essence crossed off the list immediately or put into the friend zone.
Are you naive?
I didn’t invent this shit. Men just hang around, women make the rules and control the sex. Until sex happens. The the guy is the proverbial ‘in like Flint’ and tends to control the relationship.
Remember, women use sex for relationships, etc.. Men use the promise of relationships, etc.. to obtain sex.
The power struggle looks like this. She controls the man until he has sex with her. Then the power dynamic shifts and he controls her.
This! You are saying that you never ask women to have sex the first time. You are promoting sex without consent. Sex without consent is rape. How fucking hard is it for you to grasp?
Am I the only one who thinks that JS has missed out on sexydirtyexciting pillow talk?
I can assure you that asking or suggesting or speculating about the possibilities or silly giggling (or laugh out loud) “discussion” of what might happen next is very, very attractive.
You really don’t know what you’re talking about and I’m almost a bit sorry for you.
Almost.
Ah, now it all comes pouring out, the Nice Guy bullshit.
You do know the “friendzone” doesn’t exist, right?
Nope, but somebody did and you believed them.
Are you stupid?
And are you still posing as a happily married 52 year old farmer?
Actually, none of what you said just now, is true. No one who has pushed me, or many of the people I know, for sex, has succeeded. In fact, With everyone I know, Asking for sex before escalating is mandatory, Male or Female. So no, Im not naive.. if anything, Im Quite experienced in that regard.
Cute though, how you explain to me how woman act.
Its apparent you have nothing new to add to the conversation that you haven’t said before, so Toodles. Have fun Rambling Inconsistent rants.
Quote; Fibinachi
“Which is odd, because you say that no women are respnosible for your choices (But you didn’t enjoy being an emotional punching bag for years) and you regret all the things you didn’t do – the implication being that the things you didn’t do made women act in a certain way towards you, badly.
So which is it? Are they responsible or not? Are you responsible or not? It’s inconsistent, which is an odd standard.
finally, we get”
Nope, you got nothing.
I made everything perfectly clear.
Of course I’m responsible for not making my feelings towards a woman clear and not escalating by asking for a date, number, etc..
She feels rejected, then retaliates.
Men don’t like rejection. However, we tend to control our emotions. Women on the other hand can get quite nasty about it.
Of course I would never make a woman feel like this on purpose. But heck, I’m a busy and likable guy. I just can’t entertain every woman that comes my way or that makes herself available.
Quote; Tit
“This! You are saying that you never ask women to have sex the first time. You are promoting sex without consent. Sex without consent is rape. How fucking hard is it for you to grasp?”
Ever heard of the term ‘sub-communication’?
How about non-verbal communication?
I guess not (hum, most women are experts at this).
This is what separates the guys that are successful with women, from the one’s holding the wall up nursing the beer wondering what they’re doing wrong.
Hahahahah! Thanks, JackShit, I really needed that laugh:
So how did this mythical woman retaliate? By being oblivious to youtr existence? By going out with someone else? that’s not retaliation, that’s living her life while not even realising you existed.
Quote; Mildlymagnificient
“Am I the only one who thinks that JS has missed out on sexydirtyexciting pillow talk?
I can assure you that asking or suggesting or speculating about the possibilities or silly giggling (or laugh out loud) “discussion” of what might happen next is very, very attractive.
You really don’t know what you’re talking about and I’m almost a bit sorry for you.
Almost.”
Cute.
I’m not 12 years old.
And I never claimed to be everything to every woman.
If I talk sex with a woman, it’s 2 things.
It’s generally after we’ve had sex for the first time, and in a discreet manner. It’s really none of anybody else’s business. You want to broadcast it to the world, that’s your fetish.
Ah, the good old “I could tell she wanted it” defence. Never heard that one before /snark
Good to know that you would rather risk raping a woman than ensuring you have consent and risk not getting laid. you may not be a rapist but it’s plain you don’t care whether you are or not as long as you get laid.
Remeber that empathy thing you thought you had?
And JackShit doubles down on the “Consent? Who cares about consent?” with a side order of slut-shaming.
Wow, that’s really sad. I can’t even imagine actually believing that relationships are like that. I’ve never had one like that. Finding another person you like and trust enough to enter into a mutually exclusive sexual relationship with isn’t a competition, or personality war, or anything like the above. A relationship that revolves around an imbalance of power/control isn’t a very healthy one, whether sexual or not. I don’t have ANY relationships like that, not with by boyfriend, my friends, my coworkers, my parents (now that I’m an adult, mind you) or even my boss. It’s… depressing to think that you live like that.
Not to mention that you manage to erase every person who isn’t straight and cisgendered. How in the world do LGBT people have relationships at all if relationships are really ‘supposed’ to look like you describe them to be?
Quote; Tit
“So how did this mythical woman retaliate? By being oblivious to youtr existence? By going out with someone else? that’s not retaliation, that’s living her life while not even realising you existed.”
Cute.
Let me give you an example smartass.
I got fired from a job once, because the owners 21 year old daughter used to get on her knees and write my check, after I made my deliveries. Her 24 year old sister asked me out all the time and used give me flashes up her skirt.
Let’s just say these girls were not happy with me, even though in different circumstances I would have pleased to oblige them.
I don’t mix business with pleasure, even when it’s being thrown at me.
Especially when I’m a long way from home, and their daddy looks like a pro wrestler. The though of ending up in the dumpster when his little sweetheart has had a change of heart doesn’t interest me.
Quote; Tit
“Ah, the good old “I could tell she wanted it” defence. Never heard that one before /snark
Good to know that you would rather risk raping a woman than ensuring you have consent and risk not getting laid. you may not be a rapist but it’s plain you don’t care whether you are or not as long as you get laid.
Remeber that empathy thing you thought you had?”
Have you ever heard of the word ‘No’?
How about ‘Stop’?
All young ladies should know these words. I do.
Again, the fact is, young women generally don’t have the courage to tell you they are interested in you. They expect you to figure it out and lead them in the proper direction.
And past 18 years old, that not to the store to buy some candy.
Cool story, bro. ~Was this before or after you stopped being a young wall-flower afraid to ask women out and suddenly became irrisistible to young women in your happily-married middle age?
Yo’re burbling. More than usual, that is. Take a deep breath.
Quote; fromafar2013
“Wow, that’s really sad. I can’t even imagine actually believing that relationships are like that. I’ve never had one like that. Finding another person you like and trust enough to enter into a mutually exclusive sexual relationship with isn’t a competition, or personality war, or anything like the above. A relationship that revolves around an imbalance of power/control isn’t a very healthy one, whether sexual or not. I don’t have ANY relationships like that, not with by boyfriend, my friends, my coworkers, my parents (now that I’m an adult, mind you) or even my boss. It’s… depressing to think that you live like that.
Not to mention that you manage to erase every person who isn’t straight and cisgendered. How in the world do LGBT people have relationships at all if relationships are really ‘supposed’ to look like you describe them to be?”
Keep repeating to yourself.
Men want sex, women generally want relationships. But not always.
There’s always a power imbalance when people have competing interests.
Let me ask you. The first time, did you ask your boyfriend to have sex with you?
No, let me guess. It just happened.
If that story is true…That’s sexual harassment. It created a hostile workplace that made it difficult for you to do your job, and indeed you lost your job over it. You should have had the legal means to file a complaint to get the behavior to stop or sue if it didn’t. You should have sought damages after losing your job over it. I’m sorry that we live in a society that teaches men that they are supposed to ‘like’ or put up with that shit and would have likely ridiculed you for addressing the issue.
Interestingly, feminists are the ones fighting to give you that power in that situation.