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NEWS FLASH: Women aren’t the mysterious creatures that Nice Guys ™ — and predators — like to pretend that they are

Consent: Not actually that hard to recognize.
Consent: Not actually that hard to recognize.

Blog posts by the New Misogynists I write about here often seem to be little more than combinations and recombinations of a relatively small number of very bad ideas. Today, let’s look at a blog post from a “conservative libertarian” and creepy Nice Guy ™ who identifies himself only as TIC, which combines a bit of “consent is hard” and “women only like bad boys” with some muddled notions from Evo Psych to conclude that women are such mysterious creatures that no one could possibly know what they really want — and so therefore it’s women who are the ones who are really responsible when they get raped.

It’s an argument that bears a strong similarity to the stories rapists tell themselves to excuse their actions. When people describe so-called Nice Guys ™ as creepy, this is why: in a lot of ways, they think like predators. In the case of TIC here, exactly like predators.

TIC starts off by ridiculing the notion that “no means no.”

Women are notorious for always warning men that “no means no”. For us men who have dealt with enough women, we know this to be pure malarkey. If “no” always meant “no”, many men would die virgins. There would also be fewer rapes as a result, because for once women would mean what they said instead of talking in indirect code language.

And now the victim blaming begins in earnest:

Women, many times, bring rape upon themselves. They purposely reject men, even ones they are interested in, in order to get him to chase her. Since women love to be the prize and the center of attention, leading a man on a wild goose chase through all sorts of hoops and mind games is all too common in today’s society.

Now, if this were actually true it would be, well, sort of annoying for straight men who don’t like jumping through hoops. TIC, though, seems to have convinced himself that the fact that some women play coy in the dating world somehow makes it literally impossible for men to tell when and if they’re raping a woman.

What this does is blur the line between what is acceptable for a man to do to a woman and what is not…because once we can all agree that women want to be chased, we can understand what a predicament it puts men into. Since “no” does not always mean “no”, there is no real way for a man to know when to stop his advances upon a woman.

TIC now pulls out some half-baked Evo Psych to bolster his alleged argument:

My theory as to why women give such pieces of advice goes back to dark triad genes or the lack thereof. You see, when a woman tells a man that he should just be himself, or to respect women, or to give them compliments, or that “no means no”, what she is actually doing is bullshitting the male. This is a weeding out mechanism that women use in order to ensure that men who don’t get it never will.

He follows this up with a fairly standard Nice Guy ™ whine.

You see, women do not want nice guys to propagate their genes. They do not wish for them to be successful with women. This is why advice coming from women is never good; it has been sabotaged from the get-go.

Well, actually, If women are telling Nice Guys ™ that “no means no” because they don’t want to have sex with these Nice Guys ™  aren’t these women, however mean you think they are, communicating what they want pretty clearly?

TIC moves on to another standard Nice Guy ™ complaint: that women actually get to turn down men for sex. Never mind that men also have the right to refuse sex with anyone they want. To the dedicated Nice Guy ™, the fact that women can say “no” means that they’re the ones running the show. And doing a terrible job of it, to boot.

Women have the power and control in the dating scene. This is important to note because it means that any and every problem with society in the context of female-male relations falls on the shoulders of women themselves.

And we’re back in Evo Psych-land again:

If women decide to start dating men who are genuine, nice, and honest, then that is what most men will become. Since women, however, are only attracted to males with dark triad genes, that is what most men strive to be. The ones that do not either are alone or being used.

Therefore, women are responsible for getting raped:

[S]ince women have decided to make men chase and act in an overly-aggressive fashion in order to get sex, the rape culture pervades society. Make no mistake about it, women invariably cause most rapes.

Oh, but ladies, TIC isn’t necessarily blaming you personally for being raped. You may be a perfectly virtuous woman. It’s all those other ladies who created the rape culture that got you raped.

Now, this is not to say that specific individuals who are victims of raped caused it or even desired it. The point is that women overall have created an environment in which only sexually aggressive, narcissistic, abrasive men are seen as sexually attractive (these traits are what women interpret as being “confident”).

They have created an environment in which “no” doesn’t mean “no”, it actually means “try harder, keep going, I want to be chased, I want to feel wanted even though you’ve already made it clear that you want me. I want to play games and toy with you until I’m satisfied.”

Huh. I thought women were only interested in aloof dudes who insult them and refuse to buy them drinks, not with supplicating so-called betas falling over themselves to chase women. At least that’s what all the Pickup Artists keep telling me.

But no. In TIC’s world, women are mysterious creatures who delight in mystifying men, and men have no choice but to try, and try, and try again.

Men are constantly placed in awkward, unsure situations because what women want is always esoteric.

If women are so “esoteric” how is it that so many of them manage to end up in relationships with people they love? Surely at some point they must have managed to convey to their partners what they wanted.

Should he approach? If she rejects him, should he continue his advances because that’s what she may want deep down? Who knows?

Who knows? You should know, dude, and if you don’t, you should find out. Seriously, if you honestly can’t tell if a woman wants to make out with you, or have sex with you, or even just watch an episode of Mad Men with you, STOP WHAT YOU’RE DOING and USE WORDS to ASK HER what she wants.

If you ask if she wants to have sex and she says no, assume she means no, and don’t have sex with her. And don’t assume she said “no” because she thinks you’re a spineless beta for asking. Seriously. If a woman really wants to have sex with you, chances are infinitesimally slim that she’s going to change her mind and throw you out simply because you actually asked her if she wants to have sex. (And if she is that sort of person, count your blessings that you’re not dating her, and move on.)

If the woman you’re pursuing is such a flighty game player that for some perverse manipulative reason she won’t say “yes” when she means “yes,” DON’T HAVE SEX WITH HER. Assume that anything short of a clear “yes” is a “no.” And maybe think about dating someone who can communicate what she wants more clearly.

If you assume that ambiguity means no, the worst that can happen is that miss out on having sex with someone who’s up for having sex with you, but who for some reason can’t or won’t tell you what she really wants. A missed chance to have sex is not the end of the world. If, by contrast, you assume that ambiguity means yes, the worst that can happen is that you rape someone. Err on the side of caution. Don’t err on the side of rape.

Unfortunately, like most of those who pretend that consent is somehow more complicated than quantum physics, TIC doesn’t actually seem much interested in figuring out the alleged mysteries of consent. He seems more interested in providing an excuse for men who want to pretend that consent is so hard, and women such mysterious creatures, that they just can’t help raping women.

For many men, leaving things to chance is not an option. They will continue to press the issue in order to find out the woman’s true intentions.

“Press the issue.” That may be the creepiest euphemism for rape I’ve run across yet.

Thus is the nature of women: enablers of the very thing they claim to despise the most.

No, it’s the nature of sexual predators to pretend that a clear verbal “no” from the target of their sexual advances means “keep pushing,” and, indeed, that any response short of a punch in the nose is evidence that their victim “really wants it.”

Rapists like to pretend that they somehow “misunderstood” the signals their victims gave them. But there’s good research showing that this just isn’t true – and that the predators know it. As Thomas Macaulay Millar has pointed out in a much-cited post on the Yes Means Yes blog, predators can read the signals from their victims just fine. It’s just that they don’t like what their victims are trying to tell them – that is, no. “[T]he notion that rape results from miscommunication is just wrong,” Millar writes. “Rape results from a refusal to heed, rather than an inability to understand, a rejection.”

And this is where predators and Nice Guys ™ find common cause. Predators don’t really care what their victims want, and will keep going regardless of whether or not they get a clear message to stop; pretending that women are mysterious creatures unable to convey what they want gives them a perfect excuse for their predatory behavior.

Nice Guys, by contrast, may not actually be confident enough to believe that the women they fixate on will ever say yes to them. And so they’re drawn to the same specious arguments about the alleged “esoteric” nature of women that predators spout — because these half-believed arguments enable them to pretend that ambigious signals — or even flat-out no’s — are yeses in disguise.

TIC’s argument doesn’t explain rape culture. His argument is rape culture.

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cloudiah
7 years ago

I was once dating this totally ripped ex-marine who ran his law firm out of a small office on his farm right on the beach in Los Angeles, and … I got nothing. I literally can’t top his story.

hippodameia8527
hippodameia8527
7 years ago

Has he claimed to be an Olympic gymnast yet?

cupisnique
7 years ago

cupisnique, most guys see something beautiful when they look at you. But I see that and something else. I see a little girl inside. And I want to play with her.

I know I should be deeply disturbed but instead I just let out the biggest laugh ever (I have a rather loud laugh). Is this supposed to seduce me? I don’t want to be with anyone that wants to play with little girls in that way, sorry, no thanks. I’m a woman, there’s no little girl here.

I so want this to be Mikey, it just ups the absurdity to over 9000!!!!

hippodameia8527
hippodameia8527
7 years ago

Or an astronaut?

fromafar2013
7 years ago

@Hellkell “Fromafar: that’s where Charlotte is.”

JS said his farm is in South Carolina, must be close to the border. Just noticing the sock whiff from another angle.

Earlier he did make a NC reference too. That is where Mikey claimed to take his ‘girlfriend’ for vacation one time, right?

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Fromafar: oh yeah. Mikey claimed he lived in LA, but sockys on a farm in NC. That was where the magical penthouse weekend was.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Fromafar2013: oh yeah. Mikey claimed he lived in LA, but sockys on a farm in NC. That was where the magical penthouse weekend was. For 800 bucks a night.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Contest: If the genitalia commonly associated with women can be called a “secret garden,” what shall we call the genitalia commonly associated with men.

Best entry gets some kind of funny cat video. :: cloudiah rumbles around in her sack of funny videos ::

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Sorry for the double post, phone weirdness

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Aaaaand FREE consenty porn! Chester 5000 XYV for those who like steampunk robot porno. <a href="http://fyodorpavlov.tumblr.com/tagged/fyodor-pavlov"Fyodor Pavlov does lots of sexy art, and Sex Is Not The Enemy is good if you want non-drawn people.

If you want story first and only occasional porny bits, the Less Than Epic Adventures of TJ and Amal is a great road trip story, and O Human Star is trans queer robots in the future. Khaos Komix is an LGBT teenager comic that actually covers all the letters.

Another thing for pay is the Queerotica comics anthology, which was made in part by some professional buddies of mine and like the rest of the stuff that costs money, I feel totally safe vouching for it.

Also, if you’re a sexual assault survivor or wanting to learn how to grow more comfortable with sex and deal with emotions that come up with it, I recommend Stacey Haines’ Healing Sex. It’s intended for cis women, but I was able to find it helpful even so as a guy, and it’s queer and kink friendly.

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

I was wondering if this dude was Mikey but was given pause because he seems to know how to spell “woman” in the singular (Mikey would go on about “a women”) and use the contraction “you’re” when it’s needed. I suppose those things could have been learned by now . . .

fromafar2013
7 years ago

Thanks LBT! Loving the Sex is Not the Enemy tumblr.

fromafar2013
7 years ago

@ cloudiah “what shall we call the genitalia commonly associated with men.”

The cucumber patch?

I’m suck in garden mode now. I got nothing.

leatapp
leatapp
7 years ago

Oooo…pr0ns…..
Thanks, LBT.

J.S.
J.S.
7 years ago

No need David.

I’m done.

It’s been fun.

You folks have a good one.

And again, I’m absolutely not this Michael character.

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Come on ladies, you have to be smarter than this.

There’s a method to the madness.

And I’m sorry, it’s not about you leading some supplicating guy around on a leash. And if it is I feel sorry for you.

Go buy a Harlequin romance and read it or something.

I live in reality.

Surrrrrre you do, bud. Surrrrrrrrrre you do.

Funny that you should mention Harlequins, too…your euphemisms for vulvae are about 30 years out of date. But very formulaic…kind of like Harlequins from back then.

Or maybe you have just been whacking off to Nancy Friday, and you haven’t read enough of the non-sexy bits of her books to understand that most women who sexually fantasize, do so with full awareness that it will never be reality…and that’s precisely the point, because schtupping a guy like you would be SO. DAMN. BORING!

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

More free sexy art! This one is by a guy I know, hubby actually commissioned him to draw a (non-sexy) anniversary picture for us a few years back. He does a lot of trans and kinky erotic art in a non-creepy way, takes consent and trigger warnings very seriously, and is a generally nice fellow who I’m glad to have given money to.

I put you on a later page of his art blog just because in the past couple years he’s gotten REALLY deep into fandom, and I prefer his non-fanart work.

Falconer
7 years ago

Seeing how it’s pancake day, I’m thinking buckwheat pancakes with carob molasses for dinner today. And maybe bacon and eggs.

We just had a nice supper of pancakes with strawberry compote and eggs and sausages, in and around our son, who spent 40 minutes squalling in arms and then fell asleep.

If any of you have any blessings to give, consider this wee exhausted tot.

Actually, I’m 6 feet, 180lbs. of charming southern gentlemanly delight. And a former U.S. Marine.

How come they’re always Marines? What’s wrong with Rangers and Airborne? No, they’re always leathernecks, which means none of them actually are.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Bye, JS! Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out!

Do you think my porn scared him off? I think my porn scared him off.

(By the way, I would be terribly remiss if I didn’t advertise my own stuff, I suppose. That writeathon was specifically a challenge to write porn my audience wanted, regardless of my own taste.)

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Actually, I’m 6 feet, 180lbs. of charming southern gentlemanly delight.

Wow, I missed that. *snrk* And this doesn’t much impress me since. Well. Hubby’s a fucking beeftank. He was so delighted to be sharing this economy-sized vessel with me, because it means showerheads are never too high for him. And he’s actually a DECENT Southern charmer.

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

I think the smell-of-socks detectors, all going off at once, scared him off. Pity, I was waiting to see if he’d top himself at gross come-ons to Cupisnique…

cloudiah
7 years ago

@LBT, That anniversary drawing is just about the sweetest thing I’ve ever seen.

kittehserf
7 years ago

I love the pics in that Sex Is Not The Enemy page. People smiling! People looking happy about sex! That’s the sort of porn I could enjoy.

Kim
Kim
7 years ago

Actually, if it is Mikey, I doubt he’d be able to resist shouting SPINSTERS for as long as he did.

And this trope of “young women used to ignore me and now I am old they throw themselves at me (in ways that no one else can confirm aren’t part of his overactive imagination)” is not exactly new and original.

katz
7 years ago

cupisnique, most guys see something beautiful when they look at you. But I see that and something else. I see a little girl inside. And I want to play with her.

Sooo…this is you “not hitting on women?”

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: cloudiah

@LBT, That anniversary drawing is just about the sweetest thing I’ve ever seen.

Yup. We got it hanging on our wall!

RE: Kittehs

People smiling! People looking happy about sex!

Due to my history, that’s generally the only kind I’m comfortable with. If you like, I can dig around more, see if hubby’s got anything else stockpiled…

katz
7 years ago

Kiiiiitttteeeeehhhhh, look at Deviantart

kittehserf
7 years ago

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhh look at him with bed-hair! Love it!

katz
7 years ago

I was trying to copy the hair in the reference picture you gave me but I’m not sure I did a very good job. Or on the textures. But then again, one’s own worst critic and all that.

kittehserf
7 years ago

LBT – I don’t even have a history, so to speak, but the not-happy or outright rapey stuff of mainstream porn gives me the creeps, because of the chance that it really is rapey. Nasty fantasies are one thing, but when it’s real people doing it, people who might not be making a free choice? No, not for me.

Sex is about teh happy as far as Himself and I are concerned.

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

Yeah, I felt like JS’s writing ability (content aside) was quite a bit better than Mikey’s.

Which is not to say that his writing was not abysmal. It was.

What on earth was up with the “quote;” thing?

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Dawwwww! I love it!

This is making me want to doodle us again; I kinda stopped somewhere over the hell years…

kittehserf
7 years ago

His hair is all mussed, but that’s cool! And drawing from a photo isn’t easy. I’m chuffed seeing him through someone else’s eyes/hands.

kittehserf
7 years ago

I meant to say before, LBT, d’you do portrait commissions too? This is sort of hypothetical now – when you get better and if I have cash, no longer a given in a few weeks. (There’ll be enough to live on from unemployment money, but it’ll be tight.)

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Kittehs

I meant to say before, LBT, d’you do portrait commissions too?

I do! I actually did one for Kiwi Girl’s boy, a while back. Depending on whether you want color or not, the price would start around $30 US.

Shiraz
Shiraz
7 years ago

“I am most defintely not Michael.”

Of course it’s true, you sassy Farmer/ex-Marine/Southern Playboy you!

He was really obsessed with age. His age, the age of all the alleged women who (*snicker*) wanted him and our ages. These guys…”I’m an older man who has sex with young women, THEY WANT ME I TELL YOU.” Mind you, nothing he said was the truth, he wasn’t anything he said he was, but they’re really invested in the narrative. I met young guys who were invested in this narrative…some of them I met in freaking college for god sakes. Is it a basic fear of mortality and diminishing with age? Or is it wistful young losers who want to believe reaching a certain age will finally grant them all kinds of sex with young nymphs with father issues?

katz
7 years ago

It’s the women throwing themselves at thing that makes him such a ringer. Michael was positive that women were constantly hitting on him, and then when he actually described the interactions, it was always “a woman stood near me at the grocery store.” And JS apparently thinks that we, right now, are throwing ourselves at him.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: katz

Michael was positive that women were constantly hitting on him, and then when he actually described the interactions, it was always “a woman stood near me at the grocery store.”

*snrk* This is particularly amusing in contrast to myself, who didn’t realize hubby was hitting on me even after he’d started going around shirtless in front of me and trying to get me to kiss him.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Oh and katz, I just wanted you to know: I’ve been using your map of Castle Itzak for constant reference now that I’m working on the Princess and Her Monster again. It’s so much prettier than my own scribble, and I can have it up on my computer at the same time as the story!

Seranvali
Seranvali
7 years ago

J.S:

“So she’s free to string Mr. long term provider along while I attend to her more immediate ‘needs’.”

And how does your wife feel about this? You did say you were happily married, didn’t you? Or don’t you tell her?

katz
7 years ago

That makes me happy.

BTW, if you want any opinions regarding the winnowing down, I will happily contribute my 2 cents.

mildlymagnificent
7 years ago

Pretending we’re offended by male sexuality instead of all the weird-ass creepy shit he posted earlier. Err, people can read previous posts, troll. It’s all there in its freak show glory.

Whether he is or isn’t Mikey DIRECTLY ON THE BEACH, I have a deadening, shadowy but growing feeling that JS is one of those. The ones who really can not tell the difference between a good fun sexytimes bloke and a horrible coercive rapey shitstain.

The good fun, genuinely good-natured, lighthearted bloke who invites women to share horizontal folk dancing or other sexy recreation and takes no for an answer (if that’s what happens) would be not enough of a manly masculine man, a weakling, in the eyes of the happily-married-farmer who is also an ex-marine and a constantly-sought-after-sex-god.

kittehserf
7 years ago

LBT – whoo, I could afford that (still)! Drop me a line if/when you feel up to it.

I’m now picturing Michael/J.S. at the market, convinced all the women there aren’t really buying or selling livestock or whatever. No, they’re all there to hit on HIM.

Only diff between this persona and the “Michael” one is that the first was full of open, seething resentment, Owly-style, and this one pretends otherwise.

I’m wondering if they’re all one of our old socks. Pell used to be able to do this sort of thing, though the location’s wrong. Ditto Mr Al, though these jackasses don’t seem to be his style.

katz
7 years ago

I have a deadening, shadowy but growing feeling that JS is one of those. The ones who really can not tell the difference between a good fun sexytimes bloke and a horrible coercive rapey shitstain.

Well, he earlier on all but conceded that he was unable to even conceive of the possibility that a man might do something wrong.

And told Ally that she was responsible for everything bad that had happened to her and it was all her own fault.

Like a total asshole.

Seranvali
Seranvali
7 years ago

Wierwoodtreehugger:

You know, I’m actually starting to like Jaime Lannister. Brienne seems to be having a positive effect on him. She’s pretty cool.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: katz

BTW, if you want any opinions regarding the winnowing down, I will happily contribute my 2 cents.

I think I’m doing okay. Most of it is based around the publisher I’m hawking it too–they’re a romance publisher, so I’m having to pretty much cut the first half of the book and put the focus on the romancey bits. The story itself is going to change little, but the FRAMING of it is going to end up completely different, and that’s helped break through my brainlock. The hard part so far is I’m gonna need to find someone to Jew-check me doublequick, and feeling like I have to put Princess Judith on the sidelines. 🙁

RE: Kittehs

LBT – whoo, I could afford that (still)! Drop me a line if/when you feel up to it.

Heeeeey, I’ve got an idea! I’m going to be pretty much booked up until mid-April, but since you’ll be hitting the country at the end of the month, would you be interested in me taking the commission then, doing it on paper, and presenting it to you upon our meet-up in Chicago?

RE: mildlymagnificent

JS is one of those. The ones who really can not tell the difference between a good fun sexytimes bloke and a horrible coercive rapey shitstain.

It’s shocking how many of those folks there are. My hubby has always been flirtatious and heavy on the innuendo. What made him popular and not creepy was that he would take no for an answer and turn it OFF.

kittehserf
7 years ago

The ones who really can not tell the difference between a good fun sexytimes bloke and a horrible coercive rapey shitstain.

I’d guess it’s worse than “can’t tell” – it’s that the coercion is his fun. Everything Qwerty said points that way.

Shaenon
7 years ago

Normally I believe anything people tell me about themselves on the Internet, because I meet so many genius millionaire lawyer inventors with giant penises that way, but the “my girlfriend/wife reads all the gross stuff I post and totes agrees with me” gambit is so fake I can’t maintain that precious suspension of disbelief.