Blog posts by the New Misogynists I write about here often seem to be little more than combinations and recombinations of a relatively small number of very bad ideas. Today, let’s look at a blog post from a “conservative libertarian” and creepy Nice Guy ™ who identifies himself only as TIC, which combines a bit of “consent is hard” and “women only like bad boys” with some muddled notions from Evo Psych to conclude that women are such mysterious creatures that no one could possibly know what they really want — and so therefore it’s women who are the ones who are really responsible when they get raped.
It’s an argument that bears a strong similarity to the stories rapists tell themselves to excuse their actions. When people describe so-called Nice Guys ™ as creepy, this is why: in a lot of ways, they think like predators. In the case of TIC here, exactly like predators.
TIC starts off by ridiculing the notion that “no means no.”
Women are notorious for always warning men that “no means no”. For us men who have dealt with enough women, we know this to be pure malarkey. If “no” always meant “no”, many men would die virgins. There would also be fewer rapes as a result, because for once women would mean what they said instead of talking in indirect code language.
And now the victim blaming begins in earnest:
Women, many times, bring rape upon themselves. They purposely reject men, even ones they are interested in, in order to get him to chase her. Since women love to be the prize and the center of attention, leading a man on a wild goose chase through all sorts of hoops and mind games is all too common in today’s society.
Now, if this were actually true it would be, well, sort of annoying for straight men who don’t like jumping through hoops. TIC, though, seems to have convinced himself that the fact that some women play coy in the dating world somehow makes it literally impossible for men to tell when and if they’re raping a woman.
What this does is blur the line between what is acceptable for a man to do to a woman and what is not…because once we can all agree that women want to be chased, we can understand what a predicament it puts men into. Since “no” does not always mean “no”, there is no real way for a man to know when to stop his advances upon a woman.
TIC now pulls out some half-baked Evo Psych to bolster his alleged argument:
My theory as to why women give such pieces of advice goes back to dark triad genes or the lack thereof. You see, when a woman tells a man that he should just be himself, or to respect women, or to give them compliments, or that “no means no”, what she is actually doing is bullshitting the male. This is a weeding out mechanism that women use in order to ensure that men who don’t get it never will.
He follows this up with a fairly standard Nice Guy ™ whine.
You see, women do not want nice guys to propagate their genes. They do not wish for them to be successful with women. This is why advice coming from women is never good; it has been sabotaged from the get-go.
Well, actually, If women are telling Nice Guys ™ that “no means no” because they don’t want to have sex with these Nice Guys ™ aren’t these women, however mean you think they are, communicating what they want pretty clearly?
TIC moves on to another standard Nice Guy ™ complaint: that women actually get to turn down men for sex. Never mind that men also have the right to refuse sex with anyone they want. To the dedicated Nice Guy ™, the fact that women can say “no” means that they’re the ones running the show. And doing a terrible job of it, to boot.
Women have the power and control in the dating scene. This is important to note because it means that any and every problem with society in the context of female-male relations falls on the shoulders of women themselves.
And we’re back in Evo Psych-land again:
If women decide to start dating men who are genuine, nice, and honest, then that is what most men will become. Since women, however, are only attracted to males with dark triad genes, that is what most men strive to be. The ones that do not either are alone or being used.
Therefore, women are responsible for getting raped:
[S]ince women have decided to make men chase and act in an overly-aggressive fashion in order to get sex, the rape culture pervades society. Make no mistake about it, women invariably cause most rapes.
Oh, but ladies, TIC isn’t necessarily blaming you personally for being raped. You may be a perfectly virtuous woman. It’s all those other ladies who created the rape culture that got you raped.
Now, this is not to say that specific individuals who are victims of raped caused it or even desired it. The point is that women overall have created an environment in which only sexually aggressive, narcissistic, abrasive men are seen as sexually attractive (these traits are what women interpret as being “confident”).
They have created an environment in which “no” doesn’t mean “no”, it actually means “try harder, keep going, I want to be chased, I want to feel wanted even though you’ve already made it clear that you want me. I want to play games and toy with you until I’m satisfied.”
Huh. I thought women were only interested in aloof dudes who insult them and refuse to buy them drinks, not with supplicating so-called betas falling over themselves to chase women. At least that’s what all the Pickup Artists keep telling me.
But no. In TIC’s world, women are mysterious creatures who delight in mystifying men, and men have no choice but to try, and try, and try again.
Men are constantly placed in awkward, unsure situations because what women want is always esoteric.
If women are so “esoteric” how is it that so many of them manage to end up in relationships with people they love? Surely at some point they must have managed to convey to their partners what they wanted.
Should he approach? If she rejects him, should he continue his advances because that’s what she may want deep down? Who knows?
Who knows? You should know, dude, and if you don’t, you should find out. Seriously, if you honestly can’t tell if a woman wants to make out with you, or have sex with you, or even just watch an episode of Mad Men with you, STOP WHAT YOU’RE DOING and USE WORDS to ASK HER what she wants.
If you ask if she wants to have sex and she says no, assume she means no, and don’t have sex with her. And don’t assume she said “no” because she thinks you’re a spineless beta for asking. Seriously. If a woman really wants to have sex with you, chances are infinitesimally slim that she’s going to change her mind and throw you out simply because you actually asked her if she wants to have sex. (And if she is that sort of person, count your blessings that you’re not dating her, and move on.)
If the woman you’re pursuing is such a flighty game player that for some perverse manipulative reason she won’t say “yes” when she means “yes,” DON’T HAVE SEX WITH HER. Assume that anything short of a clear “yes” is a “no.” And maybe think about dating someone who can communicate what she wants more clearly.
If you assume that ambiguity means no, the worst that can happen is that miss out on having sex with someone who’s up for having sex with you, but who for some reason can’t or won’t tell you what she really wants. A missed chance to have sex is not the end of the world. If, by contrast, you assume that ambiguity means yes, the worst that can happen is that you rape someone. Err on the side of caution. Don’t err on the side of rape.
Unfortunately, like most of those who pretend that consent is somehow more complicated than quantum physics, TIC doesn’t actually seem much interested in figuring out the alleged mysteries of consent. He seems more interested in providing an excuse for men who want to pretend that consent is so hard, and women such mysterious creatures, that they just can’t help raping women.
For many men, leaving things to chance is not an option. They will continue to press the issue in order to find out the woman’s true intentions.
“Press the issue.” That may be the creepiest euphemism for rape I’ve run across yet.
Thus is the nature of women: enablers of the very thing they claim to despise the most.
No, it’s the nature of sexual predators to pretend that a clear verbal “no” from the target of their sexual advances means “keep pushing,” and, indeed, that any response short of a punch in the nose is evidence that their victim “really wants it.”
Rapists like to pretend that they somehow “misunderstood” the signals their victims gave them. But there’s good research showing that this just isn’t true – and that the predators know it. As Thomas Macaulay Millar has pointed out in a much-cited post on the Yes Means Yes blog, predators can read the signals from their victims just fine. It’s just that they don’t like what their victims are trying to tell them – that is, no. “[T]he notion that rape results from miscommunication is just wrong,” Millar writes. “Rape results from a refusal to heed, rather than an inability to understand, a rejection.”
And this is where predators and Nice Guys ™ find common cause. Predators don’t really care what their victims want, and will keep going regardless of whether or not they get a clear message to stop; pretending that women are mysterious creatures unable to convey what they want gives them a perfect excuse for their predatory behavior.
Nice Guys, by contrast, may not actually be confident enough to believe that the women they fixate on will ever say yes to them. And so they’re drawn to the same specious arguments about the alleged “esoteric” nature of women that predators spout — because these half-believed arguments enable them to pretend that ambigious signals — or even flat-out no’s — are yeses in disguise.
TIC’s argument doesn’t explain rape culture. His argument is rape culture.
@ chump –
“There’s huge pressure on women not to say no to men. We’re socialised that way all our lives.
I’ll admit that’s news to me, but I have to ask who exactly is giving you that kind of pressure. Are those people saying that because they believe the man interested in you is a good match, or just because everyone else is saying it?”
It’s a way bigger issue than anyone we know, or anyone “just saying” we should not say no. We are called bitches if we just say “no” if someone asks us out. Or if we stand up for ourselves in any form in general. We have to make up a reason not be called a bitch/callous or whatnot anytime we say no to a man who is buying us a drink, complimenting us, whatever. We are threatened, hurt, and stalked by men we say no to. Women are never encouraged to be assertive in any way at all. Look at how the media destroys women in power. I am too sick and tired to explain this enormous issue right now, but maybe someone else will. I would be willing to engage with you if I had the energy, because maybe you’re actually willing to consider the issue and be educated.
@TomBCat –
One fun nail polish thing they sell is a “mattifying” thing you can put on any non-matte/shiny/whatever polish that will make it matte, changing it into another type! That’s one fun thing…adding sparkles on top of ones you have, also…not that this is news for you.
My enthusiasm for women succeeding in feeling safe is abundant and always available.
I hope nobody sees my semi-willingness to engage with Chump as offensive. i’m on painkillers.
TL;DR, Chump, but a man who I don’t enjoy kissing is not “promising”.
(Nor would a woman that I didn’t enjoy kissing be promising as a potential lover either.)
It’s cute how he thinks that people just reading the conversation now can’t scroll up and discover that “do to her” is in fact what he wrote.
@katz
Hmm… XD
@bahumbugi
I’m fine with it, but if anyone else isn’t I’m fine to stop (and I’m assuming you are too, since you brought it up).
/rambling.
Hey, some people engage, some just point and laugh – variety is the spice of life, and all that cliched crap. Makes the comments section more fun to read.
@Marie
I’m not even a make-up person, but I had a friend who always gave me her stuff(on of the people who buy it and use it once). I got so used to it after a while, having 20 different mascaras and stuff…
And yeah, the ‘women do that’ – bit wasn’t serious either, to be clear. Though I like playing with stereotypes(hey, my eyeshadow matches my leg hair!).
I had a boyfriend once who loved to wear my shirts at home. I found it depressing that it seemed like a refreshing change for me. Also I didn’t want him to wear my cap – looked good, but there was a flower on it!
I felt like an asshole and talked to a fiend about it, who isn’t any more, they tried to scare me into thinking he might be gay(there would have probably been other clues, like, not being particularly interested in sex with women?). Besides, I loved his clothes, they smelled like him and I could wear something different without paying for it! Why shouldn’t it go both ways?
not sure what I wanted to say, I guess that I hate it when I catch myself thinking those ways. Being happy when I encounter male feminists(because apparently I need a man’s validation for my opinions, or having someone ‘from the other side’ join shows I’m right?!)
Makes me realize how hard in actually is to think about the things that don’t affect me directly even though they are important to me.
Don’t know why, I guess the ‘eyeliners are not a women only thing” bit just made me aware that I think primarily about women when thinking about make up, even though I have more make up wearing male friends than female friends.Even though stereotypes got to me very late because in my home the only important thing was whether people were nice, they got there, and now they won’t go away.
I don’t smoke, but if a guy is annoying me I will bum a cigarette off of another dude (and make him light it for me of course) just for the pleasure of being able to put it out in the first guy’s drink. Then I scream “FINALLY I’LL GET THE BABY THAT I DESERVE”* and run out of the bar cackling. I find that gives you the maximum misandric effect.
*I recently re-read the April Fools spermjacking thread again, and boy that line is still hilarious.
Mary, you could scratch deep in your ear and stir his drink with that.
It might be less casual, but even more impressive if you spit in his drink very slowly, as if this was the most normal thing to do.
Sorry for the rant, got caught up in a thought there, and references just popped up in my mind like crazy. My brain screamed ‘hey, remember?!’ at me. (It usually does that when I’m just falling asleep, mixed with the occasional:’hey, feel that little sting in your chest? That’s probably AidsCancer!’)
@tomBcat
I assumed it wasn’t, since I didn’t notice enough to ask for sarcasm disclaimer XD
Also, since you don’t shave your legs, (if you don’t mind answering) I’m thinking of stopping shaving my legs, since it’s a pain in the booty and my skin gets more dry-er and pain-y-er when I do, especially often. (I have a weird skin thing). What’s the difference, if you’ve shaved?
Rants are fine 😀
I’m assuming you meant me, since I don’t see a Mary. And those are good ideas XD The ear one should work, since I have a lot of earwax. /tmi.
bahumbugi…ohgod mattifyer, sparkle, don’t get me started…
I gave away most nail stuff I had, because jesus, I had mattifying ones, sparkly, glossy, glossy like water, shiny mirror-effect, glass-shine, glittery stones: butterflies, flowers, hearts, super hero crests, fruit, tiny sharks. leo print and every colour there is, some in different shades, including black, white, silver, gold and one that was the exact colour of my nails but prettier. That was when I got my first job and suddenly there was more money than I needed. So I spent it on scarves, nail polish and paint.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a guy get the kind of harsh rejections that these guys talk about unless the guy was being a dick, or grabby or pushy. Like, I don’t think I’ve ever even seen a guy go up to a girl and be polite and respectful and get told to fuck off or anything.
I have seen guys be dicks and get told to fuck off though!
Maybe if a guy’s getting told to fuck off and getting cigs put out in his drink he’s being a dick! Maybe that has something to do with it!
I could totally see some dudebro going up to a woman and going “Hey baby, nice tits! Are they real?” and the woman is like “Ew, gross! Go away!” and then the guy is all “See? Feminism has made it impossible to be a man anymore!”
And then he writes the obligatory 14,000 page manifesto whining about western women.
I finally got around to checking the /r/MensRights thread that cloudiah linked to and found the typhonblue comment that pillowinhell mentioned, and discovered that pillowinhell was misrepresenting typhonblue. Perhaps it’s a lack of reading comprehension. When typhonblue sarcastically called the previous commenter a REAL man, she wasn’t calling him a sissy, but rather attacking him for his hegemonic masculinity in bragging that he’s so strong that affirmative action can’t hurt him and for his lack of empathy for weaker men.
@wishful thinkerz
Quote it please. I trust pillowinhell way more than I trust you.
How bout quoting that bit so I can judge for myself?
/not going to a mra forum
@Marie
I noticed I wrote Mary just as I clicked the ‘post comment’ button! I actually like how the name’s spelled, may I ask why and if you’d still say it like Mary? In my head the emphasis is on the ‘ie’, like it would be over here.
It was a joke, though, I do shave my legs. Mostly because I like the feeling and the look, partly because I’m a coward and wouldn’t dare wearing skirts with hairy legs, to be honest.
But if you don’t mind me asking(again), how often do you shave? Because I do it pretty much whenever I feel like it (and was lucky enough to have only very few guys complain), and that is almost never two days in a row. I have very sensitive skin, so I use creams that are water in oil(most are the other way around). I go one, sometimes two weeks without shaving, or if I really want to wear something that makes my legs visible. I’m red hair light skin, so extremely sensitive, but that works fine for my skin.
I’m not sure whether you meant your question skin-wise or people-wise, regarding people I was either pretty lucky or most people aren’t assholes. Many people saw my legs unshaven and I have friends who never do it, none ever got complaints. Also I found that if you don’t have really dark, thick hair, most people don’t even notice it, they just don’t pay enough attention to your legs.
But you never know, it depends on the age of the people around you, the area you live in and so on. Where I live people are very shy when it comes to personal business.
Oh, this is complicated. First, in /r/MensRights/, hexcloak wrote:
Then typhonblue replied:
Then cloudiah linked to the thread.
Then pillowinhell said:
Okay, so Typhon Blue thinks it’s awful that some white privileged guy isn’t whining about affirmative action…
That’s great, Typhon Blue. Really great.
/sarcasm
@tomBcat
I do it every three or four days, so not that often. And when I do do it more I make my skin all hurty and end up taking off scabs I got from it being all itchy. /ickiness.
Mostly feel wise, I like to wear tights anyway when I wear skirts, so even though I’m self concious it wouldn’t be a huge problem, I just want to know if it’s weird to put lotion on when they’re hairy, since I need to do that a lot: see skin problems. I do have dark hair though 😉
I’m actually quite impressed that Typhon Blue has learned sarcasm. Maybe some day she’ll acquire common sense too.
Just to make you all sympathy wince with me, I end up taking off the scabs on accident with the razor. /clarifying. 😉
Do you put lotion on your arms? Most people have some hair there, so if it doesn’t bother you doing that, chances are it won’t bother you on your legs either?
Chump said this about women being pressured into saying yes to dates:
“I’ll admit that’s news to me, but I have to ask who exactly is giving you that kind of pressure. Are those people saying that because they believe the man interested in you is a good match, or just because everyone else is saying it?”
Family, friends, other people who think its more important that we appear nice than feel happy. The actual strangers who ask us out. A couple of times I’ve had strangers approach me. When the rejections came, they made big, loud scenes that unnerved me. I’m sure a lot of the posters here have had the phrase, “Oh, just give him a chaaaaaaance!” thrown at them. Why are they pressuring us? There are many reasons. Years ago, this married woman admitted to me that she loved to hear about dates gone bad because it made her feel justified in getting married. Other people feel threatened by single women and want them paired off. Why? Depends. Some people are jealous of their freedoom, some people want them snapped up because they might do things, like sleep with other people’s husbands. You know, silly sexist stuff. Just ask around.
Then this:
“Well, you have to admit that the fantasy of a “immediately be perfect for each other” love affair is a popular one, otherwise, why would The Bridges of Madison County be such a bestseller in both the literary and film formats? Dealing with real-life relationships is “so much hard work.”
It’s fiction, though. Reality’s a bit trickier. I think it would be cool to have superpowers like an X-Man, but then reality puts a hault to that. It’s a bummer, but…
Also:
“Believe you me, I’d like to say “we could take a walk in the park just to talk” and not be told “I thought you were going to take me somewhere fun.”
I’ve heard guys complain about this before. “She always wants me to take her somewhere.” And no, not all guys complain about that. If she likes going out, and you think it’s a waste of money, you might not be compatable.
Oh, this:
“I did not use the word “investment” in my previous two posts. I used the term “payoff” in quotes to indicate that’s what others, not myself, believe.”
Why didn’t you use a word that you believe in?
And then…:
“It’s the principle of least interest again; a man initiating contact (and it’s the “common paradigm” for a man to initiate) in a bid for a heterosexual intimate relationship has more skin in the game.”
Skin in the game? What? Look, if you think most people have never been rejected, you’re wrong. Just move on.
“Rejection is a woman’s right in that situation, certainly…”
Gee, thanks man.
“…but there are rejections that create more problems down the road than others.”
Meaning what?
“Is it not natural to have your feelings hurt after repeatedly venturing something only to gain absolutely nothing? The “I’m sorry we didn’t click together well. I hope you find someone better soon” solution for a “so long, and thanks for all the drinks” message I propose at least leaves the initiating man’s dignity intact, and let’s him know he’s not “just another chump knocked off the list.”
That was very muddled. But I think you mean sometimes people go out on dates to get to know one another, because that’s what people do when they don’t know each other. Sometimes one party will decide the situation is doing anything for them, so they opt out.
And so what? I went out with this guy twice, then didn’t gout out on a third date with him because the feelings weren’t there. I was nice, but felt bad. What exactly would have been better? To keep on dating him just so I don’t risk hurting his feelings? Even though I felt nothing for him, and he could be somewhere else with someone who is actually crazy about him? You remember that thing above, where you claimed women being pressured into accepting dates they don’t want was something you never heard of? Well, saying your ego is at stake, every time you attempt to date someone, is the kind of thing that puts pressure on a woman to keep saying “yes.” See, it’s more important that we appear nice than feel happy. And seriously think about how you would feel if a woman wanted to keep on dating you, but you didn’t want to continue the relationship because you weren’t feeling it. It’s OK if you don’t feel the same way. What the hell can you do?
Then these examples are fiction, right?:
“Rejections that create more problems down the road than that would be acts like taking his picture with a phone, posting it on social media, and saying “Enjoy your life in the limelight, creep,” or saying “Looking for some hot stuff, were you? Here, have some on the house!” as you stub out your cigarette in his drink.”
Shit. I’m so wary of a guy making a scene, the shit above is hardly an option. Though I have heard of women taking phone pictures of guys who hassle them on the streets and make them feel unsafe…and I approve of that.
But then you go on to complain of a woman’s free will:
“I believe the “out in the cold” rejections are part of what fuels the stereotypes of “women only want (something that I can’t be)” because of the lack of data, and this blog is ample evidence of the damage it can cause.”
If a woman said that, she’d probably be called a drama queen. You know, like if I said a man’s sexual autonomy was damaging to me and my friends because sometimes a man won’t like us back, and that hurts my feeeeelings! He should date me anyway, even if he’s not interested! See how bad that sounds? Don’t go to blogs that try to teach you about women, they’re stupid.
“Again, courtesy is free. Why not give generously?”
No one has to encourage attention they don’t want. Once again, you’re pressuring women to be nice at the expense of what they actually want. I thought you said you never heard of this kind of pressure?
Chump, I am on the record for being the worlds coldest bitch in turning down men, and I don’t go putting out cigarettes in mens drinks.
Also, that she said she thought you were offering to take her somewhere fun when really your idea was the park… Did you not think to find out something of her interests or at least offer some options/ideas? Because maybe what she was responding to was your lack of consideration of her interests. Which puts in the catagory of “unpromising” pretty quickly in my book.
And yes, I’ve been that person who has kissed someone and realized that nope, it aint doing anything for me. And then I have to deal with the dude who I’m trying to tell nicely that nope it aint doing anything for me. And its not pretty.
Marie again, one more thing:
Obviously staying clear of aggressive chemicals helps, and also buying products that are directed at a certain group of consumers. For dry skin, buy cremes that are marketed to old people, since they often have more severe problems in that area and it is much easier to find cremes with the right ingredients. I don’t know how old you are, but people tend to buy products in their own demographic, marketing works much better than we often notice.
Coldhearted bitches unite! But nope, still wouldn’t put out a cigarette in anyone’s drink, because not only is that a bit overdramatic for my taste*, why waste both a cigarette and a drink? I’m practical that way.
*I’m not sure Cruella is mean enough to be Chump’s hypothetical date. We may need the evil queen from Snow White.