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NEWS FLASH: Women aren’t the mysterious creatures that Nice Guys ™ — and predators — like to pretend that they are

Consent: Not actually that hard to recognize.
Consent: Not actually that hard to recognize.

Blog posts by the New Misogynists I write about here often seem to be little more than combinations and recombinations of a relatively small number of very bad ideas. Today, let’s look at a blog post from a “conservative libertarian” and creepy Nice Guy ™ who identifies himself only as TIC, which combines a bit of “consent is hard” and “women only like bad boys” with some muddled notions from Evo Psych to conclude that women are such mysterious creatures that no one could possibly know what they really want — and so therefore it’s women who are the ones who are really responsible when they get raped.

It’s an argument that bears a strong similarity to the stories rapists tell themselves to excuse their actions. When people describe so-called Nice Guys ™ as creepy, this is why: in a lot of ways, they think like predators. In the case of TIC here, exactly like predators.

TIC starts off by ridiculing the notion that “no means no.”

Women are notorious for always warning men that “no means no”. For us men who have dealt with enough women, we know this to be pure malarkey. If “no” always meant “no”, many men would die virgins. There would also be fewer rapes as a result, because for once women would mean what they said instead of talking in indirect code language.

And now the victim blaming begins in earnest:

Women, many times, bring rape upon themselves. They purposely reject men, even ones they are interested in, in order to get him to chase her. Since women love to be the prize and the center of attention, leading a man on a wild goose chase through all sorts of hoops and mind games is all too common in today’s society.

Now, if this were actually true it would be, well, sort of annoying for straight men who don’t like jumping through hoops. TIC, though, seems to have convinced himself that the fact that some women play coy in the dating world somehow makes it literally impossible for men to tell when and if they’re raping a woman.

What this does is blur the line between what is acceptable for a man to do to a woman and what is not…because once we can all agree that women want to be chased, we can understand what a predicament it puts men into. Since “no” does not always mean “no”, there is no real way for a man to know when to stop his advances upon a woman.

TIC now pulls out some half-baked Evo Psych to bolster his alleged argument:

My theory as to why women give such pieces of advice goes back to dark triad genes or the lack thereof. You see, when a woman tells a man that he should just be himself, or to respect women, or to give them compliments, or that “no means no”, what she is actually doing is bullshitting the male. This is a weeding out mechanism that women use in order to ensure that men who don’t get it never will.

He follows this up with a fairly standard Nice Guy ™ whine.

You see, women do not want nice guys to propagate their genes. They do not wish for them to be successful with women. This is why advice coming from women is never good; it has been sabotaged from the get-go.

Well, actually, If women are telling Nice Guys ™ that “no means no” because they don’t want to have sex with these Nice Guys ™  aren’t these women, however mean you think they are, communicating what they want pretty clearly?

TIC moves on to another standard Nice Guy ™ complaint: that women actually get to turn down men for sex. Never mind that men also have the right to refuse sex with anyone they want. To the dedicated Nice Guy ™, the fact that women can say “no” means that they’re the ones running the show. And doing a terrible job of it, to boot.

Women have the power and control in the dating scene. This is important to note because it means that any and every problem with society in the context of female-male relations falls on the shoulders of women themselves.

And we’re back in Evo Psych-land again:

If women decide to start dating men who are genuine, nice, and honest, then that is what most men will become. Since women, however, are only attracted to males with dark triad genes, that is what most men strive to be. The ones that do not either are alone or being used.

Therefore, women are responsible for getting raped:

[S]ince women have decided to make men chase and act in an overly-aggressive fashion in order to get sex, the rape culture pervades society. Make no mistake about it, women invariably cause most rapes.

Oh, but ladies, TIC isn’t necessarily blaming you personally for being raped. You may be a perfectly virtuous woman. It’s all those other ladies who created the rape culture that got you raped.

Now, this is not to say that specific individuals who are victims of raped caused it or even desired it. The point is that women overall have created an environment in which only sexually aggressive, narcissistic, abrasive men are seen as sexually attractive (these traits are what women interpret as being “confident”).

They have created an environment in which “no” doesn’t mean “no”, it actually means “try harder, keep going, I want to be chased, I want to feel wanted even though you’ve already made it clear that you want me. I want to play games and toy with you until I’m satisfied.”

Huh. I thought women were only interested in aloof dudes who insult them and refuse to buy them drinks, not with supplicating so-called betas falling over themselves to chase women. At least that’s what all the Pickup Artists keep telling me.

But no. In TIC’s world, women are mysterious creatures who delight in mystifying men, and men have no choice but to try, and try, and try again.

Men are constantly placed in awkward, unsure situations because what women want is always esoteric.

If women are so “esoteric” how is it that so many of them manage to end up in relationships with people they love? Surely at some point they must have managed to convey to their partners what they wanted.

Should he approach? If she rejects him, should he continue his advances because that’s what she may want deep down? Who knows?

Who knows? You should know, dude, and if you don’t, you should find out. Seriously, if you honestly can’t tell if a woman wants to make out with you, or have sex with you, or even just watch an episode of Mad Men with you, STOP WHAT YOU’RE DOING and USE WORDS to ASK HER what she wants.

If you ask if she wants to have sex and she says no, assume she means no, and don’t have sex with her. And don’t assume she said “no” because she thinks you’re a spineless beta for asking. Seriously. If a woman really wants to have sex with you, chances are infinitesimally slim that she’s going to change her mind and throw you out simply because you actually asked her if she wants to have sex. (And if she is that sort of person, count your blessings that you’re not dating her, and move on.)

If the woman you’re pursuing is such a flighty game player that for some perverse manipulative reason she won’t say “yes” when she means “yes,” DON’T HAVE SEX WITH HER. Assume that anything short of a clear “yes” is a “no.” And maybe think about dating someone who can communicate what she wants more clearly.

If you assume that ambiguity means no, the worst that can happen is that miss out on having sex with someone who’s up for having sex with you, but who for some reason can’t or won’t tell you what she really wants. A missed chance to have sex is not the end of the world. If, by contrast, you assume that ambiguity means yes, the worst that can happen is that you rape someone. Err on the side of caution. Don’t err on the side of rape.

Unfortunately, like most of those who pretend that consent is somehow more complicated than quantum physics, TIC doesn’t actually seem much interested in figuring out the alleged mysteries of consent. He seems more interested in providing an excuse for men who want to pretend that consent is so hard, and women such mysterious creatures, that they just can’t help raping women.

For many men, leaving things to chance is not an option. They will continue to press the issue in order to find out the woman’s true intentions.

“Press the issue.” That may be the creepiest euphemism for rape I’ve run across yet.

Thus is the nature of women: enablers of the very thing they claim to despise the most.

No, it’s the nature of sexual predators to pretend that a clear verbal “no” from the target of their sexual advances means “keep pushing,” and, indeed, that any response short of a punch in the nose is evidence that their victim “really wants it.”

Rapists like to pretend that they somehow “misunderstood” the signals their victims gave them. But there’s good research showing that this just isn’t true – and that the predators know it. As Thomas Macaulay Millar has pointed out in a much-cited post on the Yes Means Yes blog, predators can read the signals from their victims just fine. It’s just that they don’t like what their victims are trying to tell them – that is, no. “[T]he notion that rape results from miscommunication is just wrong,” Millar writes. “Rape results from a refusal to heed, rather than an inability to understand, a rejection.”

And this is where predators and Nice Guys ™ find common cause. Predators don’t really care what their victims want, and will keep going regardless of whether or not they get a clear message to stop; pretending that women are mysterious creatures unable to convey what they want gives them a perfect excuse for their predatory behavior.

Nice Guys, by contrast, may not actually be confident enough to believe that the women they fixate on will ever say yes to them. And so they’re drawn to the same specious arguments about the alleged “esoteric” nature of women that predators spout — because these half-believed arguments enable them to pretend that ambigious signals — or even flat-out no’s — are yeses in disguise.

TIC’s argument doesn’t explain rape culture. His argument is rape culture.

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hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

TIC sounds like a rapist trying to justify himself. He can sit on ALL the cactii.

Cha0sthe0ry
Cha0sthe0ry
8 years ago

What in the world are “dark triad genes” ?

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Dark triad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

TIC’s definitely in evo-psych woo land.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
8 years ago

TICK can stick some Legos where the sun don’t shine. That’s the closest that little shitstain will ever get to consensual sex.

Helen
Helen
8 years ago

Hah, what he doesn’t realise is he seems to possess all the qualities of these so called “dark triad genes”. Lets see, “a sense of entitlement”, check, “lack of empathy”, check, “manipulation and exploitation of others”, check. And so on and so on.

blitzgal
8 years ago

Our culture frames “seduction” as a man conquering a woman, taking from her something that she doesn’t want to give (because as the passive female, her task is to protect this precious thing that he wants).

Asshole expects us to believe that WOMEN are responsible for framing sex in this manner, and not centuries of a patriarchal social system that punishes women for engaging in sex in order to better control whose offspring they eventually have? Fuck off. All the legos, you step on them.

AK
AK
8 years ago

I never understand it when they say that women have all the power in dating. Like, even if you take their word for the actual mechanics of how dating works (where women are always pursued), that still seems to me like it gives men virtually all the power in terms of choosing who to pursue and all that. And it’s not like the man can’t shut things down in that scenario either…like maybe he approaches some HB10* and discovers that she has the most annoying voice in the universe and he can’t even stand to speak to her, he can just walk away.

It doesn’t even make sense in their framework. Unless of course they just mean she has the power to not have sex with them, which…oh wait, that’s exactly what they mean.

*I always laugh when I write things like that. It makes me think of children speaking in code.

An Inconvenient Truth
An Inconvenient Truth
8 years ago

I thought women were only interested in aloof dudes who insult them and refuse to buy them drinks, not with supplicating so-called betas falling over themselves to chase women. At least that’s what all the Pickup Artists keep telling me.

And don’t you forget it.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Shut up, Troofy.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

I love how that wiki page on Dark Triad genes is largely taken over by the evo psych blather…

…but at the end they note that actual studies show that there’s (probably) no such thing as Dark Triad genes. (^ Vernon P. A., Villani V. C., Vickers L. C., Harris J. A. (2008). “A behavioral genetic investigation of the Dark Triad and the Big Five”. Personality and Individual Differences 44 (2): 445–452. doi:10.1016/j.paid.2007.09.007.)

Whoops, your empty blather contradicts reality as we observe it! But do you care? No.

Fade
8 years ago

[S]ince women have decided to make men chase and act in an overly-aggressive fashion in order to get sex, the rape culture pervades society. Make no mistake about it, women invariably cause most rapes.

Okay, so let me try to get this straight. Since women… say no… that makes men like him think they have to chase because they can’t deal with rejection… and somehow that makes women responsible for rape culture?

Andrew Johnston
8 years ago

What this does is blur the line between what is acceptable for a man to do to a woman and what is not

Do to a woman, huh? Explains a lot about this mindset.

This is pretty typical Nice Guy™ stuff, even with the rape apologia. “How do I know if a woman like me?” I don’t know, talk to her? Ask her out, maybe? Do something other than orbit around her and wait for her to make all the moves? I assure you, TIC, that skulking in the corner or being a rapist are not your only options. Maybe not for you because you’re an asshole, but for most men.

blitzgal
8 years ago

I never understand it when they say that women have all the power in dating. Like, even if you take their word for the actual mechanics of how dating works (where women are always pursued), that still seems to me like it gives men virtually all the power in terms of choosing who to pursue and all that.

We had a troll in another thread argue that women use some kind of complex signalling system that forces men to approach them. So yeah, they will basically just start making shit up in order to prove that women are in control of every single aspect of socializing.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

Here’s a novel idea. How about all men everywhere immediately start taking “no” to mean “no”. Any women who are “playing games” will suddenly find that all the men they say no to actually leave them alone. They’ll lose the attention they desperately seek! By jove, they’ll actually have to say “yes” if they want sex or attention!

Why is it that these assholes always latch on to the “solution” where they can rape people?

Pear_tree
Pear_tree
8 years ago

Didn’t Jane Austen make fun of guys like this years ago, I’d suggest they should all read Pride and Prejudice and learn how people perceive Mr Collins, but I think they would just feel that Elizabeth was giving unclear messages.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Why is it that these assholes always latch on to the “solution” where they can rape people?

Seriously.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

… Has there ever been any women who recount stories of their flirty youths, and say that one of their “techniques” was saying no while meaning yes? For some strange reason, I’ve only ever heard men claim that women do this. Wierd.

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

Once again, another proof of “MRAs are the most misandric segment of the population”. After all, the only way to address the contradiciton AK notes is to assume that men have no willpower or self-control whatsoever, and therefore must automatically begin the mating rituals as soon as a female is in their vicinity.

And after reading this column, I’ve got the notion of marketing a line of denim slacks to whining Nice Guys: Dark Triad Jeans [TM]. Make yourself a complete asshat just by pulling them on.

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

kirbywarp: I have heard women speak about ‘playing hard to get’, but as you note, the proper solution to that, if it’s so widespread as to cause confusion, is to walk away from the game-players. Eventually, “hard to get” will cease to be considered a viable approach for women, and they’ll have to re-tool.

Fade
8 years ago

We had a troll in another thread argue that women use some kind of complex signalling system that forces men to approach them.

Ah, I remember that guy! I just can’t remember his name… was it the PellSock? Or the annoying guy who was around at the same time as the pellsock

… Has there ever been any women who recount stories of their flirty youths, and say that one of their “techniques” was saying no while meaning yes

I have only heard “no means yes” in the context of misogynistic men or misogynistic women excusing the actions of misogynistic men. I have never heard anyone say that’s how they flirt.

Pear_tree
Pear_tree
8 years ago

kirbywarp, I think there may be something in “The Rules” that tell you to do that, or at least say no unless asked a set time before. I have never read them in full or followed them though. I do sometimes think dating books like that are written to make natural communication with potential romantic partners harder and thus necessitate their existence.

Karalora
Karalora
8 years ago

Why is it that these assholes always latch on to the “solution” where they can rape people?

Because they see sex (and indeed everything) as a zero-sum contest between Man and Woman. If a het couple has sex, and the woman wants it and enjoys it, then that means she Wins, which means the man Loses.

Karalora
Karalora
8 years ago

Damn my too-quick trigger finger for that Post Comment button. Continuing from above…

Conversely, the less a woman wants/enjoys sex, the more the man Wins at it. Male-on-female rape is, therefore, the ultimate Win for a man.

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

OT for this column, but on-topic (IMNSHO) for the general discussion of misogyny and the culture we live in (at least in the U.S.):

Okay, this is serious enough it needs a major-league trigger warning, but if you have the stomach for it (especially other male feminists such as myself and our host), the Grand Jury report on the Gosnell Clinic is up online for free. 280+ pages, but… it’s important to know about.

Trigger warnings for suffering, abortion, death, infant-murder, general horrible maltreatment of women and rage-inducing levels of indifference and neglect.

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf

The only reason these women went to this clinic is that it was the only place they COULD go to abort in the third trimester. Had the state bothered to monitor the clinic’s conditions, it would’ve been shut down, but because it was someplace where only ‘bad’ women went, no one gave a shit.

Andrew Johnston
8 years ago

@kirbywarp: I don’t think TIC is trying to justify rape. I think he’s arguing that everyone else is a rapist (“If ‘no’ always meant “no”, many men would die virgins”) so he deserves a medal for not being a rapist. He throws it back on women because…well, that’s what Nice Guys do, blame things on women. Pretty common Nice Guy argument, it’s just a lot more despicable in this case.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Andrew: I disagree, I think he is very much trying to justify rape.

TomBcat
8 years ago

Andrew – isn’t that just another way of saying that he justifies rape? It doesn’t matter who he is justifying it for.

Deoridhe
8 years ago

I am always baffled by Evo psych. I get the psychological knee jerk reaction of my biases are inviolate, but you’d think they’d notice it was bullshit.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Deoride: seeing as MRAs live on ginned up outrage and bullshit, they wouldn’t notice.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Fuck, I don’t think I can handle this post today even filtered through Man Boobz. Gah.

emilygoddess
8 years ago

You see, women do not want nice guys to propagate their genes. They do not wish for them to be successful with women. This is why advice coming from women is never good; it has been sabotaged from the get-go.

There’s that misogynist narcissism again: “no means no” is just dating advice from women to men – as opposed to, you know, an attempt to define and prevent violence against us, or some silly girly shit like that.

@Kirbywarp

Here’s a novel idea. How about all men everywhere immediately start taking “no” to mean “no”. Any women who are “playing games” will suddenly find that all the men they say no to actually leave them alone. They’ll lose the attention they desperately seek! By jove, they’ll actually have to say “yes” if they want sex or attention!

I was thinking the exact same thing. But then they might have to not get laid occasionally (and, as your final sentence said, wouldn’t be able to excuse raping people). Better to make it women’s problem, like everything else.

emilygoddess
8 years ago

You see, women do not want nice guys to propagate their genes. They do not wish for them to be successful with women. This is why advice coming from women is never good; it has been sabotaged from the get-go.

There’s that misogynist narcissism again: “no means no” is just dating advice from women to men – as opposed to, you know, an attempt to define and prevent violence against us, or some silly girly shit like that.

@Kirbywarp

Here’s a novel idea. How about all men everywhere immediately start taking “no” to mean “no”. Any women who are “playing games” will suddenly find that all the men they say no to actually leave them alone. They’ll lose the attention they desperately seek! By jove, they’ll actually have to say “yes” if they want sex or attention!

I was thinking the exact same thing. But then they might have to not get laid occasionally (and, as your final sentence said, wouldn’t be able to excuse raping people). Better to make it women’s problem, like everything else.

Andrew Johnston
8 years ago

@TomBcat: Nice Guys usually acknowledge that rape is unacceptable, it’s just that they expect special credit for not being rapists. That’s what the whole “philosophy” is based around – seeking praise for meeting the bare minimum of moral standards. As our little friend demonstrated above, some of them still fall short.

Fundamentally, the only difference between a PUA and a Nice Guy is that the latter expects applause for being an asshole.

emilygoddess
8 years ago

No idea why that double-posted, but I’m sorry. Allow me to apologize with crowsurfing:

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

@Andrew:

I don’t think TIC is trying to justify rape. I think he’s arguing that everyone else is a rapist (“If ‘no’ always meant “no”, many men would die virgins”) so he deserves a medal for not being a rapist.

I actually took that sentence to mean that women say no so often to men that, if men actually listened, they would never get laid. Since men do get laid, it is silly to think that no actually means no.

Still pretty scary in its own way.

TomBcat
8 years ago

Andrew, he is still justifying rape.
And with no word he mentions that he wants praise for not doing it, and even if he did: first he justifies it.
He makes it seem unavoidable, therefore it is not the rapists fault, and that is a justification: If someone can’t help himself, what happens happens and you can’t hold anyone responsible. He doesn’t have to say it’s the right choice, he doesn’t have to want to do it himself, all he has to do is find excuses for people who are actually doing it.
He never asks for special credit. He tells me that what I say is meaningless because women and reasons and therefore men can’t help but rape me. I really don’t see how you can read any less into it.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

@emilygoddess:

That… that bird. It’s snowboarding. That bird is snowboarding. It is purposefully flying to the top of the roof, standing on the little disk, and sliding down, pecking at it to try to keep it going when it stops.

*dies of squee*

Andrew Johnston
8 years ago

@TomBcat: Look, I am NOT defending this guy or his fucked-up opinions. And you’re certainly right – he is trying to shift the blame for rape back onto women, explicitly in one case (“Women, many times, bring rape upon themselves”). What I’m saying is that the subculture is based around this belief that any man who isn’t an abuser or a rapist must be a really great guy. I’ve spent a lot of time in close proximity to people who buy into this Nice Guy crap, and it’s how they think.

The catch is that they also believe that Bad Boys only exist because women don’t date Nice Guys, so all the blame shifts away from the men and back onto women. Follow that line of thought to its logical conclusion, and you get Mr. “Women Are Responsible For Rape Culture” up there. Not defending that conclusion, but trying to trace the path that it took through his head.

Andrew Johnston
8 years ago

Sorry if I was a bit hostile there. I got the feeling that some of you suspected me of agreeing with TIC, and that’s not the case. Fact is, I like puzzles, and the greatest puzzles are of the form “How could he/she/they possible believe that?” Whenever I drop in to comment sections, it’s usually to give my theory on the line of logic that this person or group was following. I can see how that might come across as a defense of the underlying opinion.

I don’t want to offend this community. I like this community.

pecunium
8 years ago

. If “no” always meant “no”, many men would die virgins. There would also be fewer rapes as a result, because for once women would mean what they said instead of talking in indirect code language.

The fuck?

If, no doesn’t mean no… where do the rapes happen? Oh… Because no did mean no and the dude didn’t listen.

See… if dudes took no means no to heart, and no didn’t mean no… then the person who said no when they meant yes, would learn to say yes.

And… there wouldn’t be those,”but I thought she wanted it” defenses when someone gets arrested because they raped someone.

I don’t see what’s so hard to understand in this, it’s worked just fine for me, for 30 years. Guess what… not only has no one ever accused me of raping them, I’ve never really had to go without sex. Sure, there were ocasions I didn’t manage to find anyone who was interested, but there weren’t any soul-killing periods of complete dearth.

And, before any one of you MRAs who like to come swanning in here with, “The Truth!” starts spouting that I only act like this to get laid… So what? If I am, then it works. Since your big complaint is women won’t sleep with you, and I’m getting women to sleep with me, then I’m doing it right, and yer doing it wrong.

Fade
8 years ago

What I’m saying is that the subculture is based around this belief that any man who isn’t an abuser or a rapist must be a really great guy.

I can definitely attest to that, whether TIC is a rapist or just an awful rape apologist.

Briznecko
Briznecko
8 years ago

Andrew: I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, you’re trying to articulate how they downplay what exactly rape is.

For the Nice Guys(TM) rape is the stranger grabbing and raping a virginal woman in the alley – and instances of aquaintence rape arn’t exactly rape, they’re “miscommunications.” Thus, in their gross gross gross (vile?) justifucation, those kind of instances arn’t really “rape” at all. Even so, if only those damn bitches would just say yes there wouldn’t be an issue, amirite?

EEW. I need some brainbleach.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
8 years ago

but trying to trace the path that it took through his head.

It took a straight line from ear to ear, entirely unimpeded. 😀

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

@Fade:

Seconded. Especially if you look at a meme like Good Guy Greg, who goes out of his way to do good things for others. Like not raping women he finds passed out at a party. What a swell guy, that Good Guy Greg.

pecunium
8 years ago

Time to go out (through the rain) and buy some grape leaves to stuff for supper.

katz
8 years ago

kirbywarp: I have heard women speak about ‘playing hard to get’, but as you note, the proper solution to that, if it’s so widespread as to cause confusion, is to walk away from the game-players.

The other thing about “hard to get” is that I don’t think it often involves telling a guy not to do something when you want him to do that thing right then. I think it more typically involves refusing something now with the hopes that you’ll get something later. You don’t kiss him on the first date so that he’ll really want it on the second date, that sort of thing. Sorta ruins it if the guy just goes ahead and does it anyway.

(Disclaimer: Not an expert at playing hard to get.)

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
8 years ago

Andrew,I’d just like to take a moment and point out that what rape apologists say isn’t “an interesting puzzle”. Its peoples lives and well being on the line. Its a lifetime of fear or dread of being raped and having these “justifications” thrown at you, even before the worst has happened. Rape culture is so pervasive and drives so many other nasty lines of thought that it impacts women/girls/and other groups of vulnerable people on a daily basis.

I don’t think you meant any harm, but I also don’t give a shit what logic rape apologists use for their disgusting veiwpoint and actions. And when you make it an intellectual game, you encourage other people to entertain the idea that maybe that point of view has merit/isnt particularly harmful.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
8 years ago

@katz:

Yeah, I’ve definitely heard of playing hard to get. Though, oddly enough, I never really was told exactly what it was. The image for me is those cartoons where the man is chasing the woman around, and the woman giggles and runs away, then turns back and beckons, and the man goes running off to her again.

Kinda… abstract and wierd, almost visceral rather than logical…

But yeah, I’ve also seen movies and other media where a woman is told to save certain things for second and third dates.

Pear_tree
Pear_tree
8 years ago

I think playing hard to get is basically about waiting until the man makes the first move. It isn’t about saying no to sex when you really want it.

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