Today, a fascinating – and infuriating – case study in how Men’s Rights Activists twist reality around in order to fit their peculiar ideology. Obviously, they do this all the time, but it’s hard to find a clearer example of the MRA Reality Distortion field in action than the video I’ve pasted in below from A Voice for Men.
The video features a recording of one of AVFM’s regular commenters calling a domestic violence hotline, pretending to be a man named “Reno” who has been abused by his wife. In reality, Reno is Ian Williams, a puckish Australian who has made himself AVFM’s go-to guy for prank calls; you can find several other prank calls from him on his AVFM contributor page.
Here’s what Williams, who also goes by the pseudonym Dr. F, has to say about the call:
If you’re a man and you are a victim of violence from your partner you may face difficulties finding help. Don’t listen to me, here’s the guy himself who called. His name is Reno.
Reno calls a battered women’s shelter and is denied help.
He is denied help, even though he tells the person on the other end of the phone that he is worried his wife will return with a cricket bat.
That sounds pretty damning, and, in the comments, the regulars at AVFM responded with predictable outrage.
“No concern for a beaten man or a boy that could also be a victim and, only able to help(willing) women,” wrote Raven01. “It makes the hate filled ideology apparent to all.”
“[Go] feminism- the humanitarian justice movement brought to you by the modern KKK!” Perseus added. “Sieg Heil, cunts!”
Not one of them seemed to care that everything Williams says about the phone call is false. “Reno” was offered help many times. He was the one who refused it.
If you listen to the call, here’s what you’ll find:
Williams, pretending to be “Reno,” called a Domestic Violence counseling line, not a battered women’s shelter. He told the counselor he’d been attacked by his wife and that he needed a place to go. The counselor explained to him that he’d called a counseling line and that she personally couldn’t arrange for shelter, but that if he called the men’s help line, they could arrange for him and his 6-year-old son to get free hotel accommodations at a location unknown to his wife. The counselor offered several times to connect him directly to the men’s help line.
Williams also told the counselor that he was thinking of calling the police. She told him she could connect him directly to the police, and would be happy to explain his situation to them and to make sure he reached an officer who specializes in domestic violence.
Ignoring all her offers to assist him in getting shelter and further help, Williams insisted that he wanted to be housed in a battered woman’s shelter instead. The counselor, naturally, was puzzled by this strange insistence on his part, and explained to him again that he could get free shelter at a local hotel for as long as he needed. She again offered to connect him directly to someone who could get him immediate help.
Having refused all of her offers of assistance, Reno abruptly ended the call — to the obvious distress of the counselor, who despite the patent weirdness of his behavior on the call had been patiently trying her best to get “Reno” the help he claimed he needed. (I suspect she sensed that his story was phony, but tried to help anyway in case it was true.)
Listen to the call yourself. It’s utterly surreal. What’s even more surreal is that Williams would make the bald claim that he had been “denied help” — and then put up a recording that clearly reveals that this claim is complete and utter bullshit. And I can’t tell if he’s lying or delusional.
That’s always the question with MRAs, isn’t it?
EDITED TO ADD: A commenter here has prepared a rough transcript of the call. There are a few moments where it was impossible to figure out a word or two, but otherwise this seems to pretty accurately match my memory of the call, which I’ve listened to several times. Let me know if I need to make any corrections.
Recorded message:
Family Violence Counseling Line. Please note for training and quality improvement purposes only, your call may be monitored. If you do not want your call to be monitored, please let the counselor know. If you wish to listen to ? regarding our privacy policy if you are already speaking to a counselor press one now, otherwise hold on the line for next available counselor.
[Ringing sound]
Counselor: Hello, this is *redacted* speaking, how can I help you?
“Reno”: Oh, hello. I um, was speaking to someone a short while ago called Maria,
Counselor: Uh huh…
“Reno”: And, and my name is Reno. And, um…
Counselor: Uh huh…
“Reno”: I was explaining, I was explaining to her that my, my wife, uh, is violent towards me with a cricket bat and other things.
Counselor: Mmhmm…
“Reno”: And, uh, she gave me a phone number to call, and uh…
Counselor: Mmhmm…
“Reno”: I called them and um…
Counselor: A phone number for what?
“Reno”: Uh… Uh, it was to help, it was a, um… Pardon me, it was 1-800-015-188. It was a…
Counselor: I don’t know what that number is, so what is it for?
“Reno”: Uh, it’s a helpli-, it’s a possible, it’s a place where they might be able to tell me where I can get some shelter for the night. But there’s none of the… DV places ? are gonna help me, because I’m a man, you see.
Counselor: Have you called the men’s line? ‘Cause they’re the ones who specialize in, because in Australia unfortunately most of the, um… Services. Well not unfortunately, fortunately though, most of the services are for women, because 95% of domestic violence is perpetrated by men. So that’s why they don’t really have um… They don’t really have… So many refuges for wom-, for men. They do have places where men can go, but they’re normally um, like overnight men’s, um, places, like… Which state are you in?
“Reno”: Victoria.
Counselor: Victoria. I don’t know the ones in Victoria but there’s quite a few, for example, in Sydney um, that provide um, overnight accommodation but they don’t call them refuges as such because um… It’s the different situation only for women ’cause often they’re, well normally they’re fleeing with children. So um, normally the men’s ones aren’t, they’re not called refuges, they’re called like, a men’s hostel or an overnight, um, men’s overnight um, shelter, or they’ll call them different names but they don’t call them refuges. So, um, if you’re looking for men’s refuge that’s probably not in existence, but there are a lot of men’s shelters.
“Reno”: Will they take me and my boy?
Counselor: If you’ve got a child, um, they’ll probably prioritize you, I would say. Um, have you rung men’s line? Because they’re the ones who really have this type of information, um because they specialize in helping men. While general lines, like, we’re a counseling line, so we don’t actually have access to phone numbers for, um, directly for refuges. We can connect you to the refuge line. How old’s your, how old’s your son?
“Reno”: Six.
Counselor: How old?
“Reno”: He’s six.
Counselor: He’s six. And where is he right now?
“Reno”: He’s with me. My wife’s gonna be coming home in about three hours, and she’s gonna, she’s gonna beat me.
Counselor: And he, and your son’s not asleep now?
“Reno”: No, he’s with me now.
Counselor: Why isn’t he in bed at 8.40, 8.48 in the-… Sorry Reno, but why is he awake at this time of night?
“Reno”: Because we’re about to just go somewhere, anywhere, out of the house because we just… We’re terrifed. He, we’re ready to go, so. We, we’re ready to go.
Counselor: Reno, this is really concerning me. Is he listening to you as you’re speaking on the phone?
“Reno”: No.
Counselor: Where is he right now?
“Reno”: He’s got some headphones on. He’s watching…
Counselor: What’s he doing?
“Reno”: He’s watching television now, he can’t hear any talk. I made sure of that.
Counselor: Yeah, I’m really concerned that he’s um, awake at this time of night. Um, the other organization that could most likely help you find accommodation and probably would be your best option would be ? Community Services, because they deal especially with children and families in crisis, and so they would definitely keep you together, they would probably actually put you in, normally they pay for a hotel or motel. A men’s shelter wouldn’t be the appropriate place to go with a child, definitely not. So, um, ? they give you, they have a lot of motels and hotels that they deal with, and put they in those instead of accommodation until they can find you permanent accommodation.
“Reno”: Okay.
Counselor: Like, normally they’d pay for a flat or something instead, they wouldnt, they don’t continue to keep you in a, you know, holding pattern in a hotel. Sometimes they make you stay for, like, two weeks in a hotel.
“Reno”: Mm.
Counselor: That would be a good option for you, wouldn’t it?
“Reno”: Yeah. And they wouldn’t let my wife know that, where I’m living? Staying?
Counselor: No, they wouldn’t do that.
“Reno”: ‘Cause she’s really violent. Really violent.
Counselor: They definitely wouldn’t. Um, they definitely wouldn’t let your wife know where you’re staying. I can help you with the phone call. I can introduce you, explain the situation, and see what they can do for you, if you’d like.
“Reno”: Hmm… Possibly, tha-, thank you. I think I might, actually what I might do is call the police now and then see how it goes in there.
Counselor: But your best option is calling the police and then asking to speak to a domestic violence officer.
“Reno”: Okay.
Counselor: They’re the ones that are the most specialized in this, so they deal with this day in and day out, and that’s probably stationed… Are you in area, in an open area? Are you in Melbourne, or are you in a town, or…?
“Reno”: Uh, I’m in Melbourne.
Counselor: Well, if you’re in Melbourne, most Melbourne police stations will have a domestic violence officer, and they specialize in domestic violence, and um, what you can get is to get a detective to come over, or a domestic violence officer, and say that you’d like to um, that you have um, fear of, um, harm of your wife who’s been abusing you. And what they’ll do is, they might um, even try and get an AVO so that she has to move out of the house and you guys can stay in the house.
“Reno”: Mm.
Counselor: They’ll try probably to do that so that you and the child can stay there. Or um, if you move, they’ll um, it would be, that she can’t actually have legal contact with you.
“Reno”: Yeah… No, we have to actually get away from her, we can’t stay here. So there’s nowh-, there’s no um, women’s shelter I could stay in, we could stay in tonight?
Counselor: Well, women’s, women’s shelter’s don’t take men.
“Reno”: They don’t take men.
Counselor: Why don’t you ring men’s lines? They would be able to tell you where you can go. Why don’t you ring the men’s line? Do you want me to connect you through to the men’s line? They deal with men. Men and women’s shelters are two totally different issues. Why do you want to go [to] a women’s shelter?
“Reno”: I just need somewhere where I can just get away from her, somewhere whe-
Counselor: Yeah, but why wouldn’t you, why wouldn’t you wanna go? Why aren’t you accepting this offer that ? will pay for hotel accommodations for you and your son?
“Reno”: Oh, because I…
Counselor: Why do you…
“Reno: Because I need to get out now.
Counselor: Yeah, but they would organize it now, they’ll probably organize someone to come and get you now. People work 24/7.
“Reno”: Oh, okay. I didn’t know what. Okay.
Counselor: ? Services work 24/7, or do you want me to put you through to your local um, police station and explain it to the domestic violence officer so that I can introduce you and explain your situation and see how they can help you?
“Reno”: No, I’ll, I’ll give them a call myself. Okay, thanks.
Counselor: Are you sure?
“Reno”: Absolutely.
Counselor: I’m happy to do it, Reno. I’m very concerned about your son.
“Reno”: No, that, that’s okay. I, I’ll go now.
As someone who supervises a Domestic Violence crisis line, I was not 100% pleased with how the counselor handled this call. She didn’t seem to validate him much at all, especially in the beginning of the conversation. (This is something that happens from time to time, with both male and female survivors.) HOWEVER, she did offer him a ton of services that he kept turning down and it sounded like she did her best to help him get to safety.
It sounded like she heard a lot of “red flags” there, but being male is not one of them. I personally have helped men process through abuse that is being perpetrated by women in their lives and have coordinated shelter for them when appropriate, usually through safe homes or hotels. Men aren’t typically allowed into “women’s shelters” due to the trauma that it could cause the women and children living there. The male survivor, who is recovering from trauma perpetrated by a woman would not likely benefit from being the only man in a shelter full of women either.
I guess my point here is, if you are a victim-survivor of domestic violence, sexual assault or stalking, there are resources out there for you regardless of your gender. While there is always the potential to be discriminated against, the vast majority of DV Crisis centers are extremely willing to help ANYONE who is in an unsafe situation.
You’re welcome! I go through these phases where I look at a WordPress blog and I say, This could be more Tumblr.
Hot cross buns were a resounding success!
And now I am making moussaka. I am a cooking machine.
@ historophilia
… jealous.
I have not had moussaka, but it sounds yummy.
True, there’s no way after having been abused by a black person of knowing if a given black person is not an abuser. Therefore, because every victim is entitled to be safe, we should… ehh….
By the way, there’s no way of knowing if you’re not a child-eater.
From now on, I will consider you’re a Schrödinger’s child-eater. You have to prove that you’ve never eaten a child, that you’ve never made any child-eating apologia, that you’ve never been a child-eating facilitator, that you’ve never made any child-eating joke.
You enjoyed when you’re mom told you the story of Hansel and Gretel, didn’t you? I’m sick of this child-eating culture. Prove me you’re not fueling the child-eating culture, otherwise you’re an asshole by default. Asshole.
Children are delicious! The rest of Brzzzz’s rant was forgettable.
Nice* to see that Brz is racist too. Anyway, brz, the point of the women’s shelters it to get them away from abusive men (not all relationships man/woman, but idk how well the shelter are set up to deal w/ that.) So it kind of makes sense not to let men in. Also, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, since you don’t seem to live on earth like the rest of us, but abuse is way more common than child eating. So, way to make a totally strange comparison (things that happen often- things Idk how often happen, but aren’t common for sure).
*note: it’s not nice.
Anyway, those kids didn’t actually get eaten in Hasen and Gretle, if I remember correctly 😛
I personally would have no problem with a minority group, having set up a shelter particular for those abused due to their membership in said minority group, only letting in people of that group, and not allowing in members of the abusive group.
ROFLMAO! That is the funniest misunderstanding I’ve heard since “I assumed you were talking about banning virtual-reality girlfriends.”
Becca: Yeah no. Sorry, but others have pointed out why she made the comments about the kid.
As for the ‘undercover investigator’ thing–yes, it’s a valid tactic, if you’re not a lying douchebag about the results. This guy IS a lying douchebag, and therefore his use of the tactic is also invalid.
Zzzzero: Screencap away, dipshit.
To all who’ve posted cute pics–thanks for the brain-bleach!
I also had seen that horrible Big Questions post. The timing on it was kinda poetic, since we’d just had the discussion on another thread about how economists are prone to failing to evaluate the shit that comes out of their mouths in human terms. (The BQ dood is a libertarian economist, so yeah.) I am gonna break down his ‘reasoning’, because it helps to show that even if we accept his premises AND his economic ‘rules’, his conclusion is STILL wrong, meaning he’s really just using a bunch of BS to try and cover his rape-apologia. For those who (understandably) despise ‘academic’ discussions of rape, consider this a trigger warning for the remainder of the post. Sometimes, I really feel the need to engage these shit-fuckers on their own ground, even if it means typing the occasional sentence that makes me queasy.
1: Paint everything in economic terms–‘cost’ vs. ‘benefit’.
2: Translate every transaction, then, in terms of voluntary transactions or ‘theft’–murder is simply the ‘theft’ of your life, for instance.
3: ‘Psychic trauma’ is a cost, but it is generally discounted against physical trauma, for instance.
From there, he then goes on to assume that if the victim is completely unaware of the assault, then “no harm, no foul” should apply. Since the rapist gains a ‘benefit’ (sex) and the victim loses nothing (since their general awareness of their lack of bodily autonomy is zero), there’s ‘nothing wrong’ with the action, and it should not be punished.
However, this fails on several points:
1: Undetectable crimes are already not punished, because no one ever knows about them other than the perpetrator. The moment the rape becomes known to anyone other than the rapist, the victim’s reputation is harmed (people claiming that rape victims are not devalued because of their status have their heads so firmly up their ass they can lick their own tonsils, and should be disregarded). If the victim becomes aware of the rape post facto, then they suffer psychic trauma as well. There is literally no circumstance in which his hypothetical can be applied to cause a change in practice in the real world.
2: We do not base laws only on actual consequences; potential consequences are factored in, as well. This is why we have laws against drunk driving and speeding–not because those actions always lead to accidents, but because they create a heightened and unjustified risk of such things. Sexual activity, of any sort, carries risks with it; the rapist does not have, and cannot be given, the right to force the victim to take those risks.
3: Actions do not exist in a void. As noted, creating an environment where bodily autonomy is dependent upon consciousness will induce paranoia about being unconscious. This is bad, not only because of the whole issue of attempted drugging of drinks and such, but also because it means that, for instance, surgery patients would need to weigh the risks of being assaulted against their need for surgery. This is an untenable and unacceptable outcome.
4: The victim’s potential post-facto psychic trauma from having been raped can be easily demonstrated methodically; simply suggest that anyone taking the counter-position must acquiesce to having their body used in this matter. Since virtually no one (outside of some outre sorts) would accept such an agreement, we can be fairly certain that the psychic trauma of rape is greater than the psychic ‘benefit’ to the rapist.
In short, this guy’s not just a shitty human being, he’s also a shitty economist.
Can Brz be banned finally? I’m tired of his racist, sexist, stupid shit.
And he ain’t French. If he is, I’m the Goddamn Tooth Fairy.
Yes, that makes perfect sense : get them away from abusive men = get them away from every men.
Really, I don’t see the problem when every men are considered as a threat because some men are abusive and that’s totally racist to suggest that we can support discrimination of black people with the same reasoning.
*sigh* talking to, despite my better judgement. Brz, not all men are abusive, but WOMEN CANNOT TELL WHICH ONES ARE OR ARE NOT. AND NEITHER CAN PEOPLE OF WHATEVER GENDER WHO VOLUNTEER AT WOMEN’S SHELTERS. Nobody is trying to kick men out of the whole world, just a space that was set up to protect women from men god you are as dense as a brick.
Also, your words were:
which seemed to tie the black men= more likely to be abusers, mind set, which is why it’s racist. If that’s not what you meant, by all means, feel free to clarify.
Men = privileged group. women = unprivileged group.
White people = privileged group. BLack people (an all other POCs) = unprivileged group.
Granted, there’s lots of facets to discrimination, but what you are doing is plain false equivalency.
@hellkell
Cry harder, poor little whiny thing, maybe your wish will be fulfilled when Boob-chief will be tired to hear your whines.
Should clarify, I am speaking from an USAian perspective and simplifying things for trollbrzz here.
@bigmomma: When they were talking about the shelter not being the best place for a kid, the counselor was trying to refer him to a service that would provide a hotel room or other accommodation free of charge.
@Brz:
Hi, how are you. My, amazing how little you seem to grok. About anything, ever. Gender, biology, race, it’s all a mystery to you.
But you sure do enjoy seeing women suffer, in any amount you can get. “Cry harder”?
You are as transparent as a tissue that burnt up on re-entry.
Brz @ 4/3 12:02
As well you should! Of course, there aren’t a whole lot of child-eaters out there (far, far fewer than the 1 in sixteen men estimated to be rapists) and not many children get eaten (orders of magnitude fewer than the more than 1 in six women who are raped), so the odds are a little different, but I really have no cause to be offended at you perceiving that there is a possibility that I will eat your child. And provided you take only proportionately appropriate precautions, I’m not.
Also, there actually is no child-eating culture. So that’s another place the analogy falls short.
Kiss my ass, you faux-French fuckface.
I’ll only eat Brz’s child if he doesn’t get there first. MRAs love to kill their young.
If and when they can be bothered to pay attention to them in the first place.
@Howard Bannister
I’m fine, thanks. And you?
Lol, “cry harder”, that’s a thing that folks here love to tell to every man who appears to suffer from something to demonstrate how much they don’t give a fuck about non-officially- oppressed-group possible suffering.
Me saying “cry harder” was a wink but you probably know it and you’re just being dishonest and hypocrite.
You don’t have the right to force me to see me kissing your ass in my head, that’s harassment. Don’t cross my boundaries bitch.