Easter on The Spearhead: “I hope that our own errant women can follow Mary Magdalene’s example.”

I’m just being stupid. I’ve seen you guys being so nice to people and I feel like poop and should’ve kept my stupid mouth shut and now I’ve annoyed the people in the only place I feel safe and feel even worse now.

I’m kind of late to the discussion, but I just wanted to say this is how I feel all the time when unlurking or starting a new internet site. So come on in! 😀 *tries to smile welcomingly*

My guess is people are saying this isn’t a 101 place because of the extreme troll-i-tude. Can you imagine trying to explain something like cis-privilege to a guy who thinks that (to use an example from a recent troll we had) that rape is not that bad because it just causes “unimportant psychological damage” or something? That kind of stuff needs to be explained in a space where trolls can’t derail it, because it’s already a difficult topic.

Now, in response to your first comment, that was a cute hedgehog! *awww* And sadly, I do not know where to talk about cis-trans stuff either because I am super bad at bookmarking links.

Daintydougal: How much of a 101 conversation you can get here varies. It all depends on who’s on and whether they feel like it. But several people have explained why we need labels and several others have read and responded to the articles, so you’re actually getting a pretty good response.

I’m working on a longish response; give me a sec.

I’ve looked at the second article (“a feminist critique of cisgender”) and yeah, it’s just not a very well-thought-through article. The author doesn’t seem to understand that multiple forms of oppression can exist and overlap at the same time (intersectionality). She says:

Feminine gender conformity ala “cis” does not protect women (trans or not) from gendered oppression.

That’s true! But it does protect them from trans oppression. They get paid 75% of what men make, but nobody passes laws forbidding them to use the bathroom. Most of her article is just a long explanation of gender-based privilege, all of which is true, and then complaining that adding cis/trans to the mix doesn’t fix it:

Eliminating sex-based gender assignments, while leaving hegemonic masculinity and femininity intact,isn’t going to rectify this imbalance.

But she’s all confused here, because eliminating male privilege is not the point of cis and trans; it’s much simpler than that. The point is just to allow people to be the gender they identify with, rather than being stuck with the gender their parts are generally associated with, and to give them a vocabulary to talk about it. She might as well complain that addressing, say, racism doesn’t deal with the patriarchy and is therefore pointless.

She makes two other points, but they’re muddled together and rather contradictory:

The cis/trans binary does not, and cannot, account for the experiences of people with complicated, blended, or changing “gender identities;” nor does it address people with hostile relationships to gender in general. As a woman-born-woman who rejects femininity as females’ destiny, I surely do not identify with my assigned gender in the way that “cis” describes…The cis/trans* binary does not break down any structures of normalcy because it doesn’t describe how such systems operate. It doesn’t explain how a person will be treated by society or what kind(s) of power they hold relative to others. External observers cannot reliably determine whether someone considers herself “cis” or “trans;” they simply pass judgment by categorizing superficial expressions of masculinity or femininity as appropriate or inappropriate. In reality, any person who significantly defies the gender norms for their apparent sex will be subject to negative social treatment because of their non-compliance. This will occur regardless of whether the individual applies the label “trans” to herself or not.

So her first point is that cis/trans is meaningless because real gender experience is way more complicated than that, and her second is that it’s meaningless because it’s much simpler than that and people just respond to each other based on whether they act masculine or feminine.

The first point is what I call a TBNR (True But Not Relevant). Yes, gender identity can be complicated, but that’s no reason to reject the entire concept. In fact, having a concept of cis/trans is helpful even for people who don’t fit in either category, because it opens the door to the possibility of other types of identity, whereas if we reject the whole concept, then you’re male if you have a penis, female if you have a vagina, and that’s that. (IE, if we’re in the habit of asking what pronouns you’d prefer, there’s the option of saying “neutral, please,” whereas if we just decide you’re a girl based on your parts, then you’re flat out of luck.)

The second point is barely true at all. Yes, all people get judged based on how well they perform masculinity or femininity, both by rewarding people for the former and punishing for the latter and by rewarding for gender conformity and punishing for nonconformity. But there’s a huge line in the sand at gender identification. A cis girl can act really tomboyish and get little censure, but if that same child wants to be a boy, that’ll get pushback for sure*. (You can see this exact dynamic play out in the excellent 2011 French film Tomboy.)

TL;DR: The author doesn’t like cis and trans because she doesn’t understand gender identity, in part due to her own privilege.

TL;DR: The author doesn’t like cis and trans because she doesn’t understand gender identity, in part due to her own privilege.

The nail, you’ve struck it right on the head.

I’m just being stupid. I’ve seen you guys being so nice to people and I feel like poop and should’ve kept my stupid mouth shut and now I’ve annoyed the people in the only place I feel safe and feel even worse now. Why would people I don’t even know misunderstanding me (I certainly wasn’t asking Why Are Labels Necessary or for a 101) make me so upset? I feel like shit and I was a fucking selfish idiot to come here expecting anything. I’m sorry.

You must chill! /Say Anything reference. You haven’t annoyed me (and you would know if you had), it’s just that as others have explained, this space isn’t the safest in which to have those kinds of discussions.

You weren’t selfish. This was just a stumble when it comes to reading the room.

A late welcome from me too
Too tired to read every comment, all I got out of this was dried frog pills and that WF Price thinks he’s Jesus.

Funny how every label becomes limiting and reinforcing the patriarchy except for the one label set that is necessary to describe her own personal ideology: “woman” and “man”.

Must be a coincidence.

Funny how every label becomes limiting and reinforcing the patriarchy except for the one label set that is necessary to describe her own personal ideology: “woman” and “man”.

Must be a coincidence.

Yup. (as in yes to what you’re saying, not that it’s a coincidence XD)

Warning, I’m either hungover or just feeling generally shitty (my mother says allergies, I say she’s legit sick, and I’ll be pissed if she shared her germs). Also, my crazy pills haven’t kicked in yet. So I’m a crisp Argenti who may not make sense.

“Ugh, yeah, that article is full of BS. I saw that argument on IBTP comment threads the other day, that trans people who pass don’t experience any oppression that they wouldn’t ordinarily experience if they were cis, and that trans people who don’t pass face the exact same oppression that cis people who don’t conform to gender expectations do.”

Um, yeah. There’s a reason I prefer non-cis to trans* — much as I hate my biology, it means that regardless what I wear I can use a public bathroom without fearing the repercussions (well, I suppose anyways, I guess anyone could push the limit for “acceptable dress” but that’s so far off topic). Point here is that I’m wary saying I’m trans* because I don’t have to face the oppression.

…and apparently I have to go NOW if I want a ride to the fish store, I’ll have to finish to later, sorry.

Oh man you guys. I’m at work and its such torture because today I’m getting a SSD delivered for my Macbook Pro and I am SO EXCITED.

@deniseeliza

Yay for your…thing that’s coming*! 😀

*don’t know what it is… 😛

SSD = Solid State Drive. So basically its a hard drive but with no moving parts, like a flash stick. And it’s WAY faster at reading and writing than a traditional hard drive. So basically it makes your computer faster.