Here’s a suprisingly candid comment from an MRA in the Men’s Rights subreddit, challenging the misogyny within the movement:
Oh, wait, that’s not from the Men’s Rights subreddit. HalfysReddit did originally post this to the Men’s Rights subreddit, but the mods deleted it, and so now the only reason it’s still available is that there’s a bot that automatically reposts all self-posts to the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Before it was deleted, HalfysReddit’s post did inspire some discussion amongst the Men’s Rightsers. Well, it was “discussion” only insofar as a bunch of comments telling HalfysReddit to stuff it counts as discussion. Here’s one thoughtful comment:
Sorry, did I say “thoughtful?” I meant “delusional.”
Though I’m pretty sure he’s right that feminists aren’t going to fight for anonymity for rape defendents or the “right of paternal surrender.”
Oh, and here’s a guy comparing Men’s Rightsers to the Black Panthers.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, where the notion that MRAs should tone down the misogyny a bit is too radical to even debate.
I think part of the problem here is that “suffers from” is inherently subjective. If you feel like X is just a part of you that may be inconvenient sometimes but is nonetheless part of you, then you’re not going to appreciate being described as suffering from it. If someone else who has what’s technically the same condition/set of symptoms feels like it is an external thing that happened to them that is causing them suffering, then they might feel that “suffers from” is the correct description.
This is why it’s really hard to talk about this stuff, because a lot of what we’re talking about is really subjective. If I’d been OCD from early childhood would it feel more like just a part of me any less like a problem that I wish would go away? There’s no way for me to know, all I can really know is how it feels now.
On depression, again, how are we defining depression? There’s a lot of variation between personalities in terms of what people’s usual emotional state is, some people are usually in a mostly positive mood, some people are usually in a mostly negative mood – basic emotional orientation and outlook varies a lot. This is exactly where things get complicated, at the point where symptoms that in theory could be described as mental illness intersect with personality stuff. And for people who’ve grown up with certain symptoms, I don’t see how that could not have an effect on personality, or how you could cleanly separate the symptoms out from the personality. Take away the symptoms and you would have a different person. I think that’s what Dvarg is getting at – not always being happy with your own mental or emotional state doesn’t necessarily mean you’d prefer to be not-you.
Exactly Cassandra! I had an unusual early outbreak, I was just ten years old, so I really have NO IDEA what I’d been like otherwise. Very different for sure.
I sometimes think that serious depression is the worst mental illness you can have… although once again, you should of course be vary of generalizing.
I have a few friends who are depressed, but only one where it’s really, really serious. It’s been so hard for her to find medicines that at least do a little bit to curb the symptoms. She’s probably never gonna be able to work full time. She and her shrink have seriously considered ECT, although haven’t gone that far yet. For her, it’s really an ILLNESS, period.
I’ve only had depression twice in my life (although loads of hypomanic and a couple of really manic episodes) and it was really, really terrible. If I could wave a magic wand and make sure I’d never have to be depressed again I’d do that instantly without hesitation. It’s hard for me personally to imagine that someone could regard depression as part of their personality… BUT then again, lots of people probably consider it completely incomprehensible that someone might regard schizo symptoms as integral to their personality, as I do. Just goes to show how different people are.
This!
@CassandraSays
The boyfriend liked “suffers from depression” better than “depressed person” or “person with depression.” But, yeah, it is all subjective, which makes it hard to give an answer for the best way to talk about “us.”
@Marie and MorkaisChosen
I get depressed a lot as part of my bipolar, and while it isn’t as fun as mania, it is still part of who I am. When I talk about the downsides vs. upsides of bipolar, it isn’t as simple as depression bad, mania good. They both have downsides and upsides and I wouldn’t be me without the whole package.
@Dvärghundspossen
Yeah…idk about the happier either, but I don’t believe that happier always means better. So, even if I would have been happier if I weren’t bipolar, I still think I am better off the way I am. YMMV, obviously.
SomeGal: What do you think are the upsides of depression? If it’s possible to describe, that is.
Dvärghundspossen — I just ran “I’m not sure if “sinnessjuk” is best translated as “mentally ill” or “insane”.” past a friend who’s a native English speaker but reads Norwegian and Swedish papers, answer’s “insane” he says. Just thought I’d let you know, as a linguistic question 🙂 (I really am a hopeless pedant huh?)
Thanks, Argenti. 😀
@Dvärghundspossen
yes, you should. Are you depressed? Because if you’re not, the way you’re talking really rubs me wrong. :/ (nvm read that you said you were twice)
idk. My break outs with depression (if I can even know all of them, due to sucky ass treatment) seemed to affect me a lot. I’m guessing my first one was when I was eleven, that whole year cemented stuff. I have no clue how I’d be if I never got depressed. My second break out (break out seems weird here…is there another word?) was at 15, and kept going, so it seems to have stayed. Idk I’m rambling…mostly that I’m sorry since this is a touchy subject (for me) but it seems like you’re painting depression as the worst thing ever :/ If I had to choose between getting rid of my depression and my bad back I’d choose my bad back in a heartbeat, because I have no idea how I’d be w/o depression.
Sorry Marie, I fucked up, my bad.
Me and my super-depressed friend have discussed mental illness a lot and the way people look at the mentally ill. Our experience is that most non-mental people think schizo symptoms would be DA WORST and depression far less serious, and we think this is a bit weird. My experience is the complete opposite, and although she’s only ever been depressed and can’t personally compare the two it seems to both of us that she suffers more from her problems than I do from mine.
That’s the background, but it’s no excuse to go generalizing and then going “I shouldn’t generalize” in the next sentence like a douche… sorry for that. I should just stick to how everyone experience their situation differently.
@Dvärghundspossen
It is a really deep and slow feeling, and while painful, I appreciate those qualities of it despite the pain. There is something beautiful in the raw, pure, painful intensity of depression. I like that. As much as depression can cloud things, it also makes some things seem clearer and I like looking at things in that way.
I’m not sure if that makes sense, but I think it is the best I can do.
Thanks SomeGal. I’m not sure I understand, but thanks for trying to explain things. 🙂
@Marie
There’s something about “break out” that I really like and something that I don’t in terms of trying to get it to fit my experiences. (That’s super helpful, huh?) I see it as “experiencing an episode of depression,” but that makes it sound a little more external and imposed than it is. Normally, I just go with “I was depressed.” (I’m not saying you are wrong in any way, a “break out” of depression has a lot of poetry to it. I’m just chiming in on how I try to describe it.)
@Dvärghundspossen
kk. Thanks for apologizing. I didn’t know people acted like schizo* symptoms were the worst thing ever.
*(sorry if that’s not a word I should be using, feel free cal me on it.)
@some gal
You sound poetic angsty 😀
Hmmm….I chose breaking out cuz I thought it fit, but you’re right, looking back on it it doesn’t. Not sure what to say when it started and re-started up. (besides that! d’oh!). Normally for the worst parts I use flaring up. Like my depression’s been flaring up recently 😛 Idk if that makes any sense. Cuz I am some depressed normally (least for a while now) but I still have bits that are worse and bits that are better.
@Morkaischosen, you’re right, I think if you were just using it in conversation you’d just say “ethnic minority”.
It’s hard to know what are the right british terms though, as I have learned most of my terms from the Feminism Blogosphere which is dominated by people from the US. So all the terms I know are right for the US but not necessarily right for the UK.
When I’m in strictly Feminism spheres I tend to use the American terms as everyone recognizes them and they’re acceptable. Outside of them is harder as saying “person of colour” would sound very odd, old-fashioned and possibly racist as there isn’t the distinction made in the UK between “coloured person” and “person of colour”.
What is more, most people from ethnic minorities wouldn’t use those terms to describe themselves.
In my experience, people will tend use “Black”, “White” or “Asian” etc. to describe themselves or use their country of origin. So they might say “I’m Ugandan”, meaning either they are from Uganda or that their family is originally from there and that’s their ethnicity.
Among my BME friends who are all second or third generation British born they will say something like “I’m Sri-Lankan” to describe their ethnic origin but not their nationality, which they regard as British. So “I’m Sri-Lankan” to them and everyone else means “I am genetically Sri-Lankan but I am not FROM Sri-Lanka”.
I’m not sure exactly what this says about Britain but I think it is largely due to the fact that our BME population is a mostly much more recent development than in the US, and more people have strong ties to their country or origin.
This whole discussion reminds me a bit of a conference on medical ethics and disability I attended many years ago. There was this woman in a wheel chair who argued that she wasn’t disabled, just differently abled, and all problems she had were due to discrimination rather than direct results of not being able to walk. And then there was this man with cerebral palsey who argued that he was DISabled, and even in a utopian completely non-discriminatory society he’d be much better off without cerebral palsey. Eventually these two got into something of a fight… when the solution should have been to just allow that the woman is differently abled and the man disabled, since at the end of the day it must be up to the affected individual to judge.
@Historophilia
Maybe it also has something to do with Britain’s history as a colonial power? (I’m thinking of a lit class where we read The Lonely Londoners and White Teeth and the ways being “British” was addressed, and critiqued, in those.)
Just chiming in randomly… I would totally trade in fibromyalgia for healthy instead of depression for healthy, because my fibromyalgia causes me constant pain, whereas at least I have good days sometimes with depression. Though they are rarer lately. 🙁
/this comment was totally not brought on by a burst of fibromyalgia pain… okay, it was.
@Fade
I’m sorry. 🙁
And I would trade my fibromyalgia for healthy in a heartbeat. Pain of any kind sucks, but I am way worse at handling physical pain than emotional.
@Some gal.
Me too. I think partly because physical pain puts me in a worse mood/ makes my depression worse depending on what’s going on*, but being depressed doesn’t make me in physical pain at all. That I know about, at least. :p
*this might seem hard to explain… it’s like, I get angry b/c I’m in pain and feel in a general bad mood, which is enough to make things worse when I’m already in a bad place
Also to add: Physical pain makes it harder to do the things you like doing, which takes away some of my mood distractions.
@fade
Sorry to hear you’re in pain. Hugs if you want them.
virtual hugs are great, because it doesn’t involve moving at all. 😛
Maybe SomeGal, but not everyone who has migrated to Britain came from a former colony.
I haven’t read anything that really addresses ethnicity and identity in a completely British context, the problem is that the vast majority of Feminist work done on race and ethnicity has been done looking at America, which is a vastly different place with a vastly different history.
It’s interesting that it isn’t common in Britain to use “hyphenated-nationalities” to describe oneself. There’s no equivalent of Italian-American or African-American. People will describe themselves as British and talk about their ethnicity as something completely separate.
Which original feminists? I’m not sure which country these original feminists came from; much less which time period of feminists he is complaining about. Is it the women in america who thought they should have the right to vote? Are those the angry feminists? Or the UK women pointing out that they weren’t give a fair shake in history books?
I don’t know if I can be chill with all this right now. I’m afraid I’m facing a bout of depression at the moment. I’m working on it, but I’m not going to snap back immediately.